Valabik's downside

[Postman]

Hockey is more difficult to read and react to than a lot of other sports. How mentally difficult is it to hit a ball? Tackle someone? Not very. Play defense in hockey? Harder.

I'm sorry, but like the Kaiped Krusader said, horrible comparisons and you're showing a little too much bias towards hockey. Hitting a baseball is quite the difficult thing to accomplish. That has more to do with hand-eye coordination and preperation for a pitch. There's nothing in hockey that's even comparable to hitting a baseball. Except maybe batting a puck out of the air. But again, no one's throwing the puck to you at 90 mph with a spin on it to make it curve.

There's incredibly difficult tasks to accomplish in all sports. So I wouldn't go belittling other sports just because you have a love for hockey.

As for the main point, sports usually have more to do with instincts than they do with thinking things out. You rarely have time to think out a play in hockey, and I'd bet its even harder with the fast pace of the NHL. That's a totally different kind of intelligence than book smarts or street smarts. As previously mentioned, you could be a Yale graduate/have a high IQ, but that doesn't always mean you'll exhibit smarts on the ice. You have to have the instincts to react quick to plays. In those situations, you'll have no time to use your high IQ.

So as intelligent as Valabik may be, if he doesn't have the instincts to react, he won't get too far.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Yeah, when people say Valabik is dumb, I think they're referring to hockey sense, not personal intelligence.

Yup. Stupid penalties galore, poor positional play exacerbated by infantile skating ability...size and toughness are the only things he has going for him.

 

[Holly Gunning]

Hitting a baseball is quite the difficult thing to accomplish. That has more to do with hand-eye coordination and preperation for a pitch. There's nothing in hockey that's even comparable to hitting a baseball. Except maybe batting a puck out of the air. But again, no one's throwing the puck to you at 90 mph with a spin on it to make it curve.

There's incredibly difficult tasks to accomplish in all sports. So I wouldn't go belittling other sports just because you have a love for hockey.

I never said it wasn't difficult, obviously it is. But, as you point out, it takes hand/eye coordination, not intelligence, which is what we were discussing.

There is a link between general intelligence and the ability to play defense. No one can convince me otherwise.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I've been comparing him to Dan Focht for months, and I'm going to continue to.

 

[Postman]

I never said it wasn't difficult, obviously it is. But, as you point out, it takes hand/eye coordination, not intelligence, which is what we were discussing.

Well actually, you said ability to read/react. Which does have a lot to do with hitting a baseball. You have to know the pitcher's tendencies first of all, at different points in the count. Then you have to be able to read his delivery and react to the type of pitch he's throwing you, as well as have the hand-eye coordination/bat speed to make contact with the ball.

The only similarity in hockey I can think of would be a goalie's role. They have to read/react in a similar manner to a batter in baseball. They tend to learn the tendencies of different players, where they like to shoot the puck, etc. Then they have to read the play and instead of using hand-eye coordination, they use reflexes to react.

Obviously different, but that's probably the closest comparison you can get in hockey to a batter in baseball in terms of reading/reacting and preperation.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

Its a pipedream if Atlanta thinks Valabik will be the next Chara.

 

[SedinFan*]

Enrico Ciccone

Man could that guy crush people with hits.

 

[V for Voodoo]

Its a pipedream if Atlanta thinks Valabik will be the next Chara.

To be fair, this comparison far pre-dates the draft.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

To be fair, this comparison far pre-dates the draft.

Yes i know but the problem with that is when Chara was in Prince George people knew he would be a great defensmen. Its not like he automatically became good overnight.

His skating and hockey sense are far better than Valabik.

 

[Steve Latin*]

It has been pretty well established that Valabik's upside is a nastier Chara with less offense but I want to know what you think his downside is. I see his downside as an Eric Cairns type player, a physical monster who can't skate but is good for 12-15 minutes on the blueline.

Downside = Steve McKenna.

That's a frightening thought.

S L

 

[Kaiped Krusader]

Yes i know but the problem with that is when Chara was in Prince George people knew he would be a great defensmen. Its not like he automatically became good overnight.

His skating and hockey sense are far better than Valabik.

Well, in fairness to Valabik he was pretty highly rated for this draft so there are lots of people out there who think he has a chance to become great. Most prognosticators had him between 15th and 20th overall. Some had him a little lower; some (like Bob McKenzie) had him a tad higher. No one had him as high as tenth where Atlanta took him but it's not like he was a huge reach where he was selected.

I also don't buy the 'everyone knew Chara would be great' line. If everyone knew that, he wouldn't have been passed over 55 times in a brutal, brutal draft.

There is a link between general intelligence and the ability to play defense. No one can convince me otherwise.

Tsk, tsk. Biased and hard-headed: a dangerous combination.

 

[Epsilon]

Yes i know but the problem with that is when Chara was in Prince George people knew he would be a great defensmen. Its not like he automatically became good overnight.

His skating and hockey sense are far better than Valabik.

As a Cougars fan who watched Chara first-hand all that year, this is such revisionist garbage it's up there with "everyone knew Daigle was going to be a bust" and other such nonsense. Chara's skating was horrible and so was his hockey sense. But when you went to the game, he always gave you the impression that he could (not would) be a special player because of his size, nastiness, intensity, powerful shot, and other natural talents. When Chara was done here I really had no idea he would turn into an NHL star; I must say I'm very pleased and surprised with the way he turned out. Frankly, Valabik is a better NHL prospect than Chara at the same age.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

As a Cougars fan who watched Chara first-hand all that year, this is such revisionist garbage it's up there with "everyone knew Daigle was going to be a bust" and other such nonsense. Chara's skating was horrible and so was his hockey sense. But when you went to the game, he always gave you the impression that he could (not would) be a special player because of his size, nastiness, intensity, powerful shot, and other natural talents. When Chara was done here I really had no idea he would turn into an NHL star; I must say I'm very pleased and surprised with the way he turned out. Frankly, Valabik is a better NHL prospect than Chara at the same age.

Chara's hockey sense is underrated. How does a defensmen with NO hoceky sense be nominated for a Norris trophy?

Hate to break it to you but Hockey sense can NOT be taught. You are born with it.

 

[Epsilon]

Chara's hockey sense is underrated. How does a defensmen with NO hoceky sense be nominated for a Norris trophy?

Hate to break it to you but Hockey sense can NOT be taught. You are born with it.

But it's something you can develop. Even if it's always there it might be showing up right away. But I suppose if you want to be really pedantic about it, better words to use to describe Chara's deficiencies would be things like "positioning", "decision-making", etc.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

But it's something you can develop. Even if it's always there it might be showing up right away. But I suppose if you want to be really pedantic about it, better words to use to describe Chara's deficiencies would be things like "positioning", "decision-making", etc.

I know you are from PG so you probably know more about Chara then I do, but i didnt mean he was destined to be a super-star when he was 19, but i just feel his hockey sense is what seperates him from Valabik at this age.

Hockey sense is one of those things that can keep you out of the NHL.

 

[DaveyCrockett]

Chara didn't have great hockey sense when he was drafted. When he was drfated he was basically a much less nasty version Valabik with a bit more offensive talent. If he had great hockey sense during his draft year, there is no way he would have fallen out of the first round.

 

[BlackJack21]

I think that he as been realy overrated...

Ceiling: a meaner Andy sutton (but also more stupid)
Worst: never hit the NHL (Kristian kudroc)

BTW kudroc had a better skating and hockey sense...

BJ21

 

[LaLaLaprise]

Chara didn't have great hockey sense when he was drafted. When he was drfated he was basically a much less nasty version Valabik with a bit more offensive talent. If he had great hockey sense during his draft year, there is no way he would have fallen out of the first round.

There are always guys who fall out of the first round who have hockey sense.

Scouting hockey sense is hard to do. And its not the easiest skill to develop. You are born with hockey sense, for the most part.

 

[dunwoody_joe]

Man, Valabik is taking a beating on this thread.

I'll wait until I see the kid with my own eyes, but I have to say that DW and the scouting staff were absolutely gushing over this choice. It sounded like they had been tracking Valabik's progress for some time and are convinced that he is the real deal with more upside. Can they be that wrong?

If skating, hockey sense, temper, intelligence and positioning all need work (according to the board)--what the hell do people see in this kid (other than size)?

We'll see.

Ps: Hitting a baseball is a skill and has little to do with intelligence. However, being intelligent does have a positive correlation with achieving in sports (that's why the major sports franchises will test prospect's intelligence, using the Wonderlic). It obviously cannot overcome lack of talent, etc., but it can help athletes unlock potential.

 

[Munchausen]

I'll wait until I see the kid with my own eyes, but I have to say that DW and the scouting staff were absolutely gushing over this choice. It sounded like they had been tracking Valabik's progress for some time and are convinced that he is the real deal with more upside. Can they be that wrong?

DW said in a pre-draft interview he often liked a prospect to have at least one dominant trait, something he's better at than anybody else, rather than a complete yet unspectacular package.

Here's a pertinent quote from the interview found here

HF: You also seem to have a tendency to take guys who have one outstanding attribute, size or fighting ability or whatever, but the rest of them is a bit raw. Can you talk about that?

DW: Everyone brings something different, but I like someone who, like you�re saying, who is top level at one thing. We�re not going to find all goal-scorers, we�re not going to find all the tough guys, or all the great skaters. There are lots of normal players. And they could be rounded out, they could be average players, play a long time in the league. But when I talk about players, I like to have a player who is a top goal scorer in his league, this guy is the top tough guy in the league. I like when they bring an attribute that is real high on the list, absolutely. And that�s a pretty good point by you, no one has ever brought that up before. Certainly we talk about that in here. I like �specialty players�, guys with something special, they get recognized. Hey, Garnet Exelby. People watched him in junior and he couldn�t skate a lick. We took him in the eighth round, 240 players taken in front of him. There�s a good example. Look where he is now. But what we saw in him, he was a tough kid, good character. He was going to go through anything to be successful. Same thing with (Pasi) Nurminen. We took him in the sixth round. I was over there and I watched him break his goal stick over the post over there just like he did here. And when you meet him, he�s an emotional kid who wants to win. There�s something to be said for those guys.

In Valabik's case, it's clearly his capacity to overpower anybody else. He's huge, mean and willing to use his monster body (which is as important as having that monster body to begin with). He has serious skating deficiencies and reaction time is quite slow (just like Chara's was in his draft year), but with his frame and power, if he improves on his weaknesses, he has the potential to become one of the most dominant players in the NHL physically. That's something a GM like Waddell looks for in such a pick IMO (at least it sure looks like it). Huge upside, but not a safe bet to reach it by any means. A typical home-run, high risk/high reward pick.

 

[db23]

It makes you appreciate what the Habs got in Mike Komisarek a few years back, at around the same spot. Komisarek was bigger than Valabik (in weight at least), just as hard a hitter, and was described as a good skater with "surprisingly soft hands". Not prone to dumb penalties.

 

[DaveyCrockett]

It makes you appreciate what the Habs got in Mike Komisarek a few years back, at around the same spot. Komisarek was bigger than Valabik (in weight at least), just as hard a hitter, and was described as a good skater with "surprisingly soft hands". Not prone to dumb penalties.

That was a much deeper draft and for the record Valabik, has better size and is nastier(Komisarek is still a much better prospect obviously).

 

[db23]

That was a much deeper draft and for the record Valabik, has better size and is nastier(Komisarek is still a much better prospect obviously).

Valabik may be a few inches taller, but Komisaarek was 242 pounds when he was drafted. If Valabik is 212 as listed, that is a 30 pound difference. Though Komisarek was a year older when he was drafted. Still, I think that Valabik was not a bad pick at #10 overall. I would have been more inclined to go with A.J. Thelen who is much easier to project as a top 2 guy.

 

[Biggs]

I think that he fits most likely in Chris McAllister mold... Not very good skaters, bad puckhandling, average but tough and aggressive defending and shot that can score 1-4 goals per season. If he can train his defensive playing to be very good he will have a future in NHL and I think that is possible and quite sure about that because hi is hard-worker. There is not gonna be any Paul Coffeys coming up from juniors that time is over. Future is for BIG, TOUGH stay-at-homers who can fight and pass and hit and shoot but maybe nothing else with the stick. they will have stats like 82. 2+12=14 150pim and +35. It's easy to find a big player but harder to find any skilled ones. Think that!

 

[Rattrick]

It makes you appreciate what the Habs got in Mike Komisarek a few years back, at around the same spot. Komisarek was bigger than Valabik (in weight at least), just as hard a hitter, and was described as a good skater with "surprisingly soft hands". Not prone to dumb penalties.

But Komisarek hasn't done so well at the NHL level yet from what I have seen.