Confirmed with Link: Vaclav Burda chief Euro scout leaves for Oilers

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Comolaing about peoples complaints; is that called metacomplaints? There is another woed for it but the language filters won't allow it

I think I'm more upset no one laughed at my joke in this thread earlier which caused hurt feelings.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Can't believe Alfredsson took a pay cut so we could get this guy. Bad money management.

ha ha

 

[Sting]

Not sure why people are going nuts over this. Minor, minor move that likely won't have any lasting impact.

From what I have seen/heard, Burda wasn't exactly an all-star level scout. Look at our drafting history and what we've gotten from European picks. Karlsson (who Burda did not have a part in choosing), Claesson and Jaros are likely the only ones to make an impact at the NHL level. That's a problem.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Not sure why people are going nuts over this. Minor, minor move that likely won't have any lasting impact.

From what I have seen/heard, Burda wasn't exactly an all-star level scout. Look at our drafting history and what we've gotten from European picks. Karlsson (who Burda did not have a part in choosing), Claesson and Jaros are likely the only ones to make an impact at the NHL level. That's a problem.

Dahlen, Silverberg, Lehner.

 

[OgieO]

Burda seemed pretty decent, but we lost a scout and replaced him with another one... not sure why the acrimony. This stuff happens all the time to teams. One poster told me once that Burda wanted to scout a wider region in Europe and we tend to focus on Sweden more than anywhere. Maybe this was just philosophical differences?

 

[BondraTime]

Burda seemed pretty decent, but we lost a scout and replaced him with another one... not sure why the acrimony. This stuff happens all the time to teams. One poster told me once that Burda wanted to scout a wider region in Europe and we tend to focus on Sweden more than anywhere. Maybe this was just philosophical differences?

I have zero inside knowledge on a Burda, whatsoever. I also don't think we are losing anything that won't be replaced.

On this point though, I'm 100% agreeing with Burda's stance, should it have actually happened.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I don't think anyone here would disagree that scouting more of Europe would be a good idea.

We probably cannot afford to. Which is fine, despite the narrow focus on Sweden we seem to be doing well.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Dahlen, Silverberg, Lehner.

Anders Forsberg was responsible for the latter two.

 

[Samboni]

I dunno, maybe he left because it's a promotion and Edmonton offered more money. There's nothing to say that the guy bailed on a ship in distress.

 

[Fandlauer]

Hell, maybe the guy just wanted to be part of a team with a great shot at winning the cup over the next few years.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Anders Forsberg was responsible for the latter two.

The director of our European scouting gets no credit for those selections?

Presumably he would have had some input, no?

 

[Hale The Villain]

So, the post you responded to was crediting most of that (pre 2010) to forsberg. After that, zibanejad wasn't a necessarily impressive pick (by which I mean we had 3 or 4 similar or better options available at the time in schiseled, Brodin, Hamilton,Couturier,) and the rest have yet to have any impact, though a couple look promising.

In the end though time will tell if Burda was the key cog, or if Ruutu, Blixt and the new guy will have similar success.

I just don't how the director of European scouting gets no credit for selections in Europe. Forsberg probably had a big role in the selection of those guys, but to say Burda had little or nothing to do with them just seems like speculation to fit a narrative.

Zibanejad looks to be a pretty decent pick all things considered. We were going to go for a forward with that pick no matter what, since we had already drafted Karlsson, Cowen, Wiercioch and traded for Rundblad. The only guys that were realistic options at 6 were Zibanejad, Couturier and Scheifele. I personally wanted Couturier, and still think he likely would have been the better pick, but I can see why they went for the higher upside player in Zibanejad. Scheifele wasn't nearly as good in 2011 as he is now. He was widely considered a reach at 7. Jets look like geniuses in hindsight, as they deserve a ton of credit for identifying Scheifele's upside, but they were also helped out by getting a lot of inside info about him from Dale Hawerchuk - his coach in Barrie and a former Jet. I don't really blame the scouting staff for passing up Scheifele at 6, all things considered.

It's worth noting that of all the picks I listed, only Zibanejad was a 1st round pick. Lehner, Silfverberg, Dahlen and Englund were 2nds; and Hogberg, Sorensen, Lindberg, Ahl, Claesson, Jaros, Nurmi and Wikstrand were 3rd-7th round picks. I see 4 NHLers, about 5 more likely NHLers, and then a couple long-shots. That's a tremendous draft record no matter how you spin it, and I think it's hard to argue that the director of European scouting wasn't at least partially responsible for it.

 

[BondraTime]

The director of our European scouting gets no credit for those selections?

Presumably he would have had some input, no?

The same way Dorian would have credit with Lazar, when Lazar was 99% a Lowes pick, or Lowes would have credit with Chabot/Chlapik when they were a Mann pick.

They have the "final say" for their regions, but are not responsible for every/most picks.

There is a reason so much was made by Forsberg when he was here and when he left, and why the Sens have shifted to picks from the Q/Maritimes in the past 3 years with Mann. They were, and are, our top guys.

 

[Hale The Villain]

The same way Dorian would have credit with Lazar, when Lazar was 99% a Lowes pick, or Lowes would have credit with Chabot/Chlapik when they were a Mann pick.

They have the "final say" for their regions, but are not responsible for every/most picks.

There is a reason so much was made by Forsberg when he was here and when he left, and why the Sens have shifted to picks from the Q/Maritimes in the past 3 years.

Not exactly the same way.

Dorion was director of player personnel when Lazar was selected, which means he was basically head of player/prospect development, as well as being partially responsible for the team's amateur scouting for ALL regions.

Lowes was chief amateur scout when Chabot/Chalapik were selected, which was also for ALL regions.

Burda was head of European scouting, which means he was responsible for the team's scouting in Europe - AKA the specific region all those Swedes were selected out of.

Lowes' received praise when he helped draft Stone and Lazar out of his specific region, Mann received praise when he helped draft Chabot and Chlapik out of his specific region, why shouldn't Burda receive praise for helping draft the players I have listed out of his specific region?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

He gets the credit a director deserves. Which isn't that much.

Just like all the other ones. That is his argument.

You are the one arguing that this is a big deal.

 

[Hale The Villain]

He gets the credit a director deserves. Which isn't that much.

Just like all the other ones. That is his argument.

You are the one arguing that this is a big deal.

The director of scouting for a particular region should get more credit for the draft results from that region than just one of the scouts from that region.

Unless of course there is proof that individual European scouts like Forsberg (until 2010) or Ruutu are soley behind successful selections from the region, but there doesn't appear to be evidence that is the case.

I'm simply arguing against the idea that losing our director of European scouting isn't a loss for the organization worth noting. Seems pretty reasonable to me

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

The director of scouting for a particular region should get more credit for the draft results from that region than just one of the scouts from that region.

Unless of course there is proof that individual European scouts like Forsberg (until 2010) or Ruutu are soley behind successful selections from the region, but there doesn't appear to be evidence that is the case.

I'm simply arguing against the idea that losing our director of European scouting isn't a loss for the organization worth noting. Seems pretty reasonable to me

Forsberg got a lot of the credit in media, from Dorion, from Murray, when it comes to Swedes. For instance, here. Or here. Or here, where it's specifically pointed out that he had a big hand in drafting Silf and Lehner.

Comparatively, although I'll admit my search wasn't very deep, I didn't see much love sent Burda's way for any of these picks. I'm a big believer in where there's smoke, there's fire.

That said, I'm not trying to diminish Burda's impact  I don't know what it was. None of us really do. So I'm not going to wring my hands and act like the sky is falling because we lost one scout and added another.

 

[JungleBeat]

Burda deserves praise from the talent he's found in Sweden sans the Englund pick. It's a big loss and worrying that people are leaving the franchise for similar positions.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Forsberg got a lot of the credit in media, from Dorion, from Murray, when it comes to Swedes. For instance, here. Or here. Or here, where it's specifically pointed out that he had a big hand in drafting Silf and Lehner.

Comparatively, although I'll admit my search wasn't very deep, I didn't see much love sent Burda's way for any of these picks. I'm a big believer in where there's smoke, there's fire.

That said, I'm not trying to diminish Burda's impact  I don't know what it was. None of us really do. So I'm not going to wring my hands and act like the sky is falling because we lost one scout and added another.

I'm sure Forsberg did have a big hand in drafting Silf and Lehner, but I'm sure the director of European scouting had a role in that as well.

Forsberg left after 2010. Since then we've drafted many players out of Sweden that look like steals - guys like Dahlen, Claesson, Jaros, Hogberg, Lindberg, Wikstrand. Have to think that the guy responsible for the team's drafting in Sweden has had an impact on the selections of those players.

I'm not saying the sky is falling, but there's a whole lot of people in this thread trying to play it off as if it's not a big deal that we are losing our head Euro scout that has presided over an excellent drafting record in the region he is responsible for. The fact that another team was trying to poach him from us provides evidence that Burda is pretty good at his position.

We've been a top 10 drafting team in the last decade, arguably top 5. Lowes, Burda and Forsberg seem like they played a big role in our drafting success, and now they've all been poached by other NHL teams. It's not a good thing that this has happened, and it deserves to be pointed out.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Do we have any idea why Burda left? I am sure he made a positive contribution while he was here. I have no idea if he was great at his job or just adequate. We are looking at this info through a slit in the fence. Making just, accurate calls on it is next to impossible.

 

[BondraTime]

After the top 10 or so picks, it's basically sell jobs from the regional scouts, with confirmation from the directors. Without these guys selling them, they likely do not hear them at all. It's different for us, because we have 4 guys watching SEL/Swe-1/Swe j-20/Finland, all likely covering each league.

Lowes was responsible for Stone/Lazar/Cowen/Smith
Mann for Chlapik/Chabot/Batherson/Bowers
J. Murray for Perron
Dorian "likely" had big parts in Cowen/Zibanejad/Karlsson/Pageau
Forsberg for Karlsson/Silfverberg/Lehner/Sorenson/Petersson, with Burda being the Director for them. Forsberg identifying them
Janecyk for Dzingel/McCormick/Boyle/Burgess/US kids/etc.

Burda/Rutuu/other European scouts we've had from 11'-16' for Claesson/Wikstrand/Ahl/Dahlen/Nurmi/Jaros/Englund/Hogberg/Lindberg

Pageau/Bowers/Batherson/Brown are the only guys I am sure were a direct result of our Director of Amateur Scouting/Player Personnel outside the top 10. I would think the Head of European is much more of a groupthink, considering all 3/4 guys are watching the same 4 leagues. I am sure there are more, but I would expect it's mostly selling them to them.

People were upset we lost Forsberg, we were still strong in that region after. It sucks we lost Burda, but we will still have success in that region. Mann is a better at evaluating than Lowes IMO, though I'm not a fan of the Bowers pick, though I understand the rationale.

 

[Micklebot]

After the top 10 or so picks, it's basically sell jobs from the regional scouts, with confirmation from the directors. Without these guys selling them, they likely do not hear them at all. It's different for us, because we have 4 guys watching SEL/Swe-1/Swe j-20/Finland, all likely covering each league.

Lowes was responsible for Stone/Lazar/Cowen/Smith
Mann for Chlapik/Chabot/Batherson/Bowers
J. Murray for Perron
Dorian "likely" had big parts in Cowen/Zibanejad/Karlsson/Pageau
Forsberg for Karlsson/Silfverberg/Lehner/Sorenson/Petersson, with Burda being the Director for them. Forsberg identifying them
Janecyk for Dzingel/McCormick/Boyle/Burgess/US kids/etc.

Burda/Rutuu/other European scouts we've had from 11'-16' for Claesson/Wikstrand/Ahl/Dahlen/Nurmi/Jaros/Englund/Hogberg/Lindberg

Pageau/Bowers/Batherson/Brown are the only guys I am sure were a direct result of our Director of Amateur Scouting/Player Personnel outside the top 10. I would think the Head of European is much more of a groupthink, considering all 3/4 guys are watching the same 4 leagues. I am sure there are more, but I would expect it's mostly selling them to them.

People were upset we lost Forsberg, we were still strong in that region after. It sucks we lost Burda, but we will still have success in that region. Mann is a better at evaluating than Lowes IMO, though I'm not a fan of the Bowers pick, though I understand the rationale.

Agreed. Fascinating how before a couple days ago, Burda was never recognized as a key contributor, but now that he is gone it's terrible. Like Dzingel said, we heard rumbling of the impacts guys like forsberg and Mann had, not so much with burda. That doesn't mean it's no loss, but I'm thinking maybe a wait and see approach is best

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Wait and see just doesn't cut it for people eager to proclaim our management to be inept.

 

[Micklebot]

Anders Ostberg, former STL scout has joined us, however.

So during his time in St Louis, they drafted 3 players out of Europe, two 6th rounders and a fourth rounder. Hard to get any feel for the guy.

I wonder if Ruutu is getting promoted to head of Euro scouting

 

[BondraTime]

It would be great to start to to look and scout:

Liiga
Extraliga
KHL
MHL
Swiss A

Along with the leagues in Sweden. There is talent to be found in all these leagues, especially the more pro ready older guys who have been passed over, ala Viktor Arvidsson/Nikita Zietzev.

Along with this, we should be making trips to France/Slovakia/Denmark, as there are kids coming out of these less scouted leagues who are worthy of sending a scout.

Would have loved to grab Alexandre Tessier had he been available with our pick at 47, but Columbus were able to grab him at 45. No chance the Sens even had this guy ranked, we likely never saw him play once seeing he was playing with Grenoble out of France.

Obviously that's a "perfect world scenario", and our drafting has been phenomenal. But omitting a portion of guys because we don't invest in the areas they play in is foolish.