USA Hockey improving nicely

[markov`]

If people think that Kessel and Johnson > Malkin and Ovechkin, they need to give their heads a shake.

Having seen both plays, and taking in consideration that Kessel is 2 years younger, Kessel > Malkin.

Ovechkin is a better prospect than Johnson. I know Ovechkin is the better prospect. But I mean in the next draft class, Russia won't have a player selected in the 1st round in 2005 and maybe 2 or 3 in 2006, while USA producted what could be their two best players ever. Means something.

 

[Reilly311]

speaking of Kessel, anyone know injured he is?

 

[MOGiLNY]

That's the most logical argument you've given in this thread

that's one more than you

 

[MOGiLNY]

Having seen both plays, and taking in consideration that Kessel is 2 years younger, Kessel > Malkin.

Ovechkin is a better prospect than Johnson. I know Ovechkin is the better prospect. But I mean in the next draft class, Russia won't have a player selected in the 1st round in 2005 and maybe 2 or 3 in 2006, while USA producted what could be their two best players ever. Means something.

don't you think that's looking a bit too far ahead?

 

[tomerez]

Having seen both plays, and taking in consideration that Kessel is 2 years younger, Kessel > Malkin.

woah.. that was bold, you're entitled to your opinion.. but if it's based solely on the games you've seen in this tournament, you should take it easy and watch them more to have a strong enough argument.

yes Kessel has played well this tournament, but he's being so overhyped on this board, you'd think he was outplaying Crosby..

 

[tomerez]

that's one more than you

ba-zing

good one, but I don't see how any of my arguments weren't logical considering I'm basing them on recent performance and not speculation / opinion

 

[markov`]

woah.. that was bold, you're entitled to your opinion.. but if it's based solely on the games you've seen in this tournament, you should take it easy and watch them more to have a strong enough argument.

yes Kessel has played well this tournament, but he's being so overhyped on this board, you'd think he was outplaying Crosby..

I know I haven't seen them much, but it is not very bold. Malkin was #2 overall in a very strong draft. Kessel could be #1 overall in a very strong draft.

The numbers Kessel have been putting up are amazing. Right now no doubt that Malkin is the better player, but it's scary to figure how will Kessel be in 2 years.

 

[TML]

PQ knows.

 

[MOGiLNY]

ba-zing

good one, but I don't see how any of my arguments weren't logical considering I'm basing them on recent performance and not speculation / opinion

your only argument was Salt Lake, if I recall, and if you are going to use a 2002 tournament to judge the US hockey's junior system (and this thread is about juniors if I'm not mistaken), then go ahead, but then Russia's won 3 golds in 6 years, compared, and US' 1 gold and 4 medals in it's entire history don't fare well against that.

 

[tomerez]

your only argument was Salt Lake, if I recall, and if you are going to use a 2002 tournament to judge the US hockey's junior system (and this thread is about juniors if I'm not mistaken), then go ahead, but then Russia's won 3 golds in 6 years, compared, and US' 1 gold and 4 medals in it's entire history don't fare well against that.

It began as an argument about juniors until it resulted in comparing countries based on all levels of international play once Rabid Ranger had this to say:

I thought we were talking about the here and now, but you're right, Russia's hockey history is way more illustrious than the United States'. However, the U.S. has fared better than Russia at several levels of international competition of late, and as far as prospects goes, I think the U.S. has the better overall stable of talent. The future looks even brighter.

Once the argument expands to all levels, I think it's fairly logical to assess who's the strongest by recent performance. Well, USA outplays Russia in World Cup, in Salt Lake, in U20's in each respective's most recent tournament. Is it not logical to claim USA to be better based on that?

 

[MOGiLNY]

and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia just recently win the U-18 tournament? if US is so much better and have all these fantastic prospects while the best Russians will go in the latter rounds of 2006, then how the hell did they win U-18's?

Kessel could potentially be a #1 pick, but that's enough to make him better than Ovechkin and Malkin? Ovechkin was so good, it was agreed that he would've been a #1 pick even in 2003 when he was ineligible, or at least that's what the hockey "experts" were saying. Can you say the same about Kessel?

Maybe, I'm biased, I don't know, but I do my best to use some arguments rather than just saying "US has better prospects" or "Russia rules you all", and I honestly can't see how US is better than Russia, yesterday, today, or tomorrow. 2 prospects aren't going to change my mind, not when there've been so many high 1st round Russian picks lately, and when Russia has won 2 golds in the last 3 years.

 

[tomerez]

and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia just recently win the U-18 tournament? if US is so much better and have all these fantastic prospects while the best Russians will go in the latter rounds of 2006, then how the hell did they win U-18's?

Kessel could potentially be a #1 pick, but that's enough to make him better than Ovechkin and Malkin? Ovechkin was so good, it was agreed that he would've been a #1 pick even in 2003 when he was ineligible, or at least that's what the hockey "experts" were saying. Can you say the same about Kessel?

Maybe, I'm biased, I don't know, but I do my best to use some arguments rather than just saying "US has better prospects" or "Russia rules you all", and I honestly can't see how US is better than Russia, yesterday, today, or tomorrow. 2 prospects aren't going to change my mind, not when there've been so many high 1st round Russian picks lately, and when Russia has won 2 golds in the last 3 years.

I'm hoping this wasn't directed at me because not at one point did I ever support that Kessel > Malkin/Ovechkin or anything along those lines. Nor did I say USA has better future draft eligible prospects. This is because I don't know enough about 2006 draft class to formulate an argument so I kept out of it.

All I was saying was that USA is a stronger hockey nation at this point, IMO. I base this opinion on recent performance, which to me seems logical, you seem to think otherwise.

Also, about the Kessel/Malkin/Ovechkin/etc thing, I would claim that Russia has far better top talent, however the USA's depth and consistency of late have me convinced they are the better hockey nation. I'm thinking of teams here and not individuals.

 

[MOGiLNY]

It began as an argument about juniors until it resulted in comparing countries based on all levels of international play once Rabid Ranger had this to say:



Once the argument expands to all levels, I think it's fairly logical to assess who's the strongest by recent performance. Well, USA outplays Russia in World Cup, in Salt Lake, in U20's in each respective's most recent tournament. Is it not logical to claim USA to be better based on that?

US outplayed Russia in Salt Lake, yes. US did NOT outplay Russia at the World Cup. Did not. US didn't play 4 games in 6 nights unlike Russia, and the record between the 2 countries at the tournament was 1-1, that's not outplaying, especially the way Russia embarassed US in the first game.

And if you call a 5:4 win over Russia outplaying them, then all power to you.

But if you are going to base this on success, then I don't understand how Canada can be considered better than US even though it was US that outplayed Canada at the most recent WJC.

When US beats Russia, US is better.
When US beats Canada, Canada is still better.

Great logic.

 

[MOGiLNY]

I'm hoping this wasn't directed at me

it wasn't, I'm just too lazy to press the quote button..

 

[tomerez]

When US beats Russia, US is better.
When US beats Canada, Canada is still better.

Great logic.

Canada is better than US on professional level, but I'd like to see where I ever said that Canada is better than the US when considering WJC.

The US is the better team when considering WJC. Both have good rosters, and I think I could even give an edge to the US due to in large part because of goaltending.

But I understand where you're coming from. I too would be disappointed in a general double standard that seems to exist when many (including the majority on this board) use recent contests between USA and Russia as support for USA's claim to superiority, but then disclude that aspect and claim Canada has superiority over USA.

 

[markov`]

Worst of all, I did not say that the USA is a better hockey nation. I said that there are some arguments that could make us thinks so, like Kessel/Johnson, like their win in the last WJC, etc.

 

[markov`]

When US beats Russia, US is better.
When US beats Canada, Canada is still better.

Great logic.

When Canada outplays Russia, it doesn't matter.
When Russia outplays USA, it does matter.

Great logic.

 

[bonefizzle]

i think a big reason why the US is getting better at hockey is because alot of former NHL players kids were born in the US and it is helping out in terms of american prospects a great deal... look at parise , and bourque...

 

[espo*]

Canada is better than US on professional level, but I'd like to see where I ever said that Canada is better than the US when considering WJC.

The US is the better team when considering WJC. Both have good rosters, and I think I could even give an edge to the US due to in large part because of goaltending.

But I understand where you're coming from. I too would be disappointed in a general double standard that seems to exist when many (including the majority on this board) use recent contests between USA and Russia as support for USA's claim to superiority, but then disclude that aspect and claim Canada has superiority over USA.

Canada is better then the U.S across the board....wjc,top level professional competitions,depth,anywhere,not many are going to argue that with a straight face.One wjc win(and no medals for about the previous five years prior does'nt change that) It means they were better last year and that's that.Canada still is the number one hockey country in the world and that's that.Someday the U.S or Russia or someone else may take that title,it's not inconcieveable.....but in the year 2004 Canada still continues to be the benchmark...if you don't believe me just ask the major hockey observers from any country.....they will tell you.As for the U.S versus Russia right now i think there is very little to choose from between both countries in terms of top level talent but the U.S depth has increased and is catching up to Russia and everywhere and the next twenty years will tell us what that means to the balance of power in international hockey.

 

[The Legend]

What about Lake Placid? The Americans beat the Soviets there so that means that the Americans are better.

 

[MOGiLNY]

i think a big reason why the US is getting better at hockey is because alot of former NHL players kids were born in the US and it is helping out in terms of american prospects a great deal... look at parise , and bourque...

Parise and Bourque aren't much though.. I think the reason is that US is just finally starting to pay attention to it's hockey program, and are trying to improve things, just like they have made huge steps in soccer.

 

[espo*]

Well considering how unpopular hockey is here in the states, the US does fairly well. Too many kids are picking up bats, basketballs, and footballs and not hockey sticks. I can't even imagine how American heavy the NHL would be if hockey was as popular as football is in the states.

It would be very heavy but it just isn't very popular there and that is what counts in the end.As a dyed in the wool Canadian hockey fan i always marvel at just how dominant we would be if we were blessed with your guys or Russia's population.........losses would be extremely rare. Depends on how a person looks at your statement eh? Canada at a population of 300 million? holy **** ..........every win against us would be going down as a miracle by whoever could manage to beat us in top level international competition.

 

[wilka91*]

IMO they're still behind Canada but one could argue they are a better hockey country than Russia.

Actually that's true because the success of a team reflects the professionalism of the federation in charge of the team.

As you all know, in Russia there's no "system". If the national team gets beaten by Belarus or Latvia, no one, except the fans, will care about it. Another coach fired, that's all. There's a huge crisis in Russia, and it makes it a third world hockey nation right now.

The US is doing a good job, especially given the fact that ice hockey is far from being the most popular sport in the country.

 

[espo*]

i think a big reason why the US is getting better at hockey is because alot of former NHL players kids were born in the US and it is helping out in terms of american prospects a great deal... look at parise , and bourque...

I've made that point before and it most definately helps their program a great deal no question,no other country benefits from that scenario at all.Don't get mad U.S hockey fans....just stating a fact here.

 

[tomerez]

One wjc win(and no medals for about the previous five years prior does'nt change that) It means they were better last year and that's that.

I'll agree with you when you say Canada is the #1 hockey country, but not when you say they are #1 in U-20's. Seven years have gone by since the last time Canada won the WJC, which IMO is enough to dethrone them from being #1 when considering the U-20 category. IMO, USA is the best country there at the moment and not just because of last year's victory but because of their steady improvement. And I think it's pretty homer of you to say that pretty much Canada is better this year than the States. There's plenty of room to argue that this year's American team > Canada's..

I don't think for the WJC there is a clear #1 power like Canada once was, instead it's been pretty competitive. At this moment I would say:
USA > Canada > Russia... I would say Canada's roster is better than USA's this year, but that no way certifies that they are the better U-20's country, nor that they will win.