UPDATE 3/31- NEWSDAY - Coliseum gets $6M for renovation to host Isles

MJF

Hope is not a strategy
Sep 6, 2003
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So why do you want to do back there then? And what guarantess the Islanders will be better off at this place in 2025 when they had attendance problems last time in the burbs?
They had attendance problems with a team that was a bottom feeder for the better part of 25 years. The ownership follies are well known. The Islanders were a textbook example of how to kill your fanbase and ruin your brand.

I think Long Island is a distinct market. The population of Nassau and Suffolk Counties places them right around the size of Chicago. Belmont Park is 200 yards from the New York City border and has a LIRR station which the Belmont project hopes to have upgraded to full time service. That places the team within 35 minutes of Penn Station and Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn. That was one of the main problems with Nassau Coliseum, no public transportation.

There are no guarantees that people will come to see this team. One thing that has been proven is that after making the playoffs in their first year at Barclays Center attendance declined the following season. They lost season ticketholders before last season ever started. This season Barclays Center, who controls ticket pricing, lowered prices anywhere from 10-40% for season ticket purchasers this season. there's a real problem for the Islanders in Brooklyn.

I trust that Islanders ownership has done demographic studies. I think they must have statistics that show the majority of Isles fans who have been attending games at Barclays are still coming from Nassau and Suffolk Counties. That's why Ledecky and Malkin put a majority of resources into pushing to clear up the legal hurdles of developing with the Wilpons the land around Citi Field, and instead focused on developing Belmont. There are enough people in that region to regain and rebuild a fanbase from a generation of people who the Isles turned off with their years of futility.
 

Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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They had attendance problems with a team that was a bottom feeder for the better part of 25 years. The ownership follies are well known. The Islanders were a textbook example of how to kill your fanbase and ruin your brand.

I think Long Island is a distinct market. The population of Nassau and Suffolk Counties places them right around the size of Chicago. Belmont Park is 200 yards from the New York City border and has a LIRR station which the Belmont project hopes to have upgraded to full time service. That places the team within 35 minutes of Penn Station and Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn. That was one of the main problems with Nassau Coliseum, no public transportation.

There are no guarantees that people will come to see this team. One thing that has been proven is that after making the playoffs in their first year at Barclays Center attendance declined the following season. They lost season ticketholders before last season ever started. This season Barclays Center, who controls ticket pricing, lowered prices anywhere from 10-40% for season ticket purchasers this season. there's a real problem for the Islanders in Brooklyn.

I trust that Islanders ownership has done demographic studies. I think they must have statistics that show the majority of Isles fans who have been attending games at Barclays are still coming from Nassau and Suffolk Counties. That's why Ledecky and Malkin put a majority of resources into pushing to clear up the legal hurdles of developing with the Wilpons the land around Citi Field, and instead focused on developing Belmont. There are enough people in that region to regain and rebuild a fanbase from a generation of people who the Isles turned off with their years of futility.
Islanders need to focus on growing hockey among blacks and hispanics in the outer boroughs, not a flaky, older,fanbase on long island. This is a bad move and goes against every business sense I have, even if the arena is "hockey ready" (which means more suites and lots of empty seats during the week.) There's no guarantee this will work when right now we know that with Barclays the Isles are in the black for the first time in a long time. The minute you have a couple of bad seasons at this place, you'll be stuck in the same situation as Uniondale except you'll own the arena and all the problems that go with it. @GordonGecko
 

MJF

Hope is not a strategy
Sep 6, 2003
26,862
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Islanders need to focus on growing hockey among blacks and hispanics in the outer boroughs, not a flaky, older,fanbase on long island. This is a bad move and goes against every business sense I have, even if the arena is "hockey ready" (which means more suites and lots of empty seats during the week.) There's no guarantee this will work when right now we know that with Barclays the Isles are in the black for the first time in a long time. The minute you have a couple of bad seasons at this place, you'll be stuck in the same situation as Uniondale except you'll own the arena and all the problems that go with it. @GordonGecko
The outer boroughs? They're a few hundred feet from Queens and a 35 minute LIRR ride away from Brooklyn. They will remain accessible to New York City at Belmont.
 

Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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The outer boroughs? They're a few hundred feet from Queens and a 35 minute LIRR ride away from Brooklyn. They will remain accessible to New York City at Belmont.
And what about Westchester, CT and NJ? The Islanders in the city is simply a better growth opportunity. If you're not a football team, no reason not to be in the core.
 

MJF

Hope is not a strategy
Sep 6, 2003
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That’s why I said Long Island is it’s own distinct market. They will not be successful trying to poach fans from those areas you mentioned. At the very least it would take years and years to make inroads into those areas.
 

Steve55

Registered User
Aug 21, 2005
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Burnaby, BC, Canada
They had attendance problems with a team that was a bottom feeder for the better part of 25 years. The ownership follies are well known. The Islanders were a textbook example of how to kill your fanbase and ruin your brand.

I think Long Island is a distinct market. The population of Nassau and Suffolk Counties places them right around the size of Chicago. Belmont Park is 200 yards from the New York City border and has a LIRR station which the Belmont project hopes to have upgraded to full time service. That places the team within 35 minutes of Penn Station and Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn. That was one of the main problems with Nassau Coliseum, no public transportation.

There are no guarantees that people will come to see this team. One thing that has been proven is that after making the playoffs in their first year at Barclays Center attendance declined the following season. They lost season ticketholders before last season ever started. This season Barclays Center, who controls ticket pricing, lowered prices anywhere from 10-40% for season ticket purchasers this season. there's a real problem for the Islanders in Brooklyn.

I trust that Islanders ownership has done demographic studies. I think they must have statistics that show the majority of Isles fans who have been attending games at Barclays are still coming from Nassau and Suffolk Counties. That's why Ledecky and Malkin put a majority of resources into pushing to clear up the legal hurdles of developing with the Wilpons the land around Citi Field, and instead focused on developing Belmont. There are enough people in that region to regain and rebuild a fanbase from a generation of people who the Isles turned off with their years of futility.

But Belmont isn't lawsuit proof either, since there are at least couple of vocal NIMBYs against Isles at Belmont Park. If NIMBYs at Belmont Park team up with a couple of pols, it would be no different than fighting against Avella and tree huggers in Queens.

But perhaps potential lawsuit is something Malkin and Ledecky are wiling to fight through. It really depends on who beats the other to the punch (NYC vs NYS). Obviously Isles feel NYS, who allegedly still has provided no timeline, will make their decision faster than NYC, who likely told Isles regulatory approvals will take months, but only time will tell if an indefinite timeline will be faster.
 

Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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That’s why I said Long Island is it’s own distinct market. They will not be successful trying to poach fans from those areas you mentioned. At the very least it would take years and years to make inroads into those areas.
Which is why they should stay and make it work. In the long run Belmont is more of a risk.
 

GordonGecko

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The key to Belmont is LIRR service which would then make the arena accessible to the city and LI.
What LIRR? Belmont is a spur right now off the main lines for special events. I wouldn't have much faith that they're going to set up service that's any better than the bad service at Barclay's right now
 

MJF

Hope is not a strategy
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What LIRR? Belmont is a spur right now off the main lines for special events. I wouldn't have much faith that they're going to set up service that's any better than the bad service at Barclay's right now
The Long Island Railroad is changing. They are adding a 3rd track east of Floral Park, East Side Access to connect the LIRR to Grand Central is under way and due to be completed by 2023. Is there any reason to think that the MTA and the winner of the RFP won’t partner to make the investments necessary to bring the spur up to snuff as a full time route?
 

patnyrnyg

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Sep 16, 2004
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And what about Westchester, CT and NJ? The Islanders in the city is simply a better growth opportunity. If you're not a football team, no reason not to be in the core.
They would have a very difficult time drawing from any of those places, even in Brooklyn. To get the train to Barclays from CT, or the northern suburbs requires at least 2 train rides totaling at least an hour and a half each way and driving? Forget it. The traffic would be so bad, you'd be looking at 2 1/2 hours easy from any of those places to Barclay's. Maybe less from southern westchester. NJ is hopeless for the Isles. North and Central is already split by the Rangers and Devils. South Jersey is Flyers country.
 

Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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They would have a very difficult time drawing from any of those places, even in Brooklyn. To get the train to Barclays from CT, or the northern suburbs requires at least 2 train rides totaling at least an hour and a half each way and driving? Forget it. The traffic would be so bad, you'd be looking at 2 1/2 hours easy from any of those places to Barclay's. Maybe less from southern westchester. NJ is hopeless for the Isles. North and Central is already split by the Rangers and Devils. South Jersey is Flyers country.
They would have a difficult time drawing because their marketing sucks. And they haven't been good either. Moving to belmont makes things worse imo.
 

patnyrnyg

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Sep 16, 2004
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They would have a difficult time drawing because their marketing sucks. And they haven't been good either. Moving to belmont makes things worse imo.
It brings them closer to their core which is on LI. You do realize there are A LOT of people living on LI and the better majority have enough money to attend sporting events. I am the first to admit that I thought Brooklyn was the best option. The guy who works in the city but lives on LI can take the train the game after work and then the train back to LI to anywhere except the Port Washington line. However, I underestimated how much the Isles fans from LI hate taking the train to the game. Most want to drive which is not practical to downtown Brooklyn. I am not completely sold on the Belmont idea, but we shall see.

The best marketing in the world can't fix the travel from Westchester/Rockland/Orange/Putnam or Connecticut.
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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Brooklyn WAS the "best option" at the time. Because there was no other venues with modern revenue generating capabilities for the team.

Look, all the issues for this franchise have been building/lease/owner related for over 30 years. Their attendance was terrible because their bad lease left them no money to put a good team on the ice. And the entire fan base KNEW IT. And they knew nothing was going to change until the day they moved into a new facility when their lease was up.

Having a brand new, NHL arena for themselves is going to be a massive change for the Islanders. For the better. The fans will show up in Belmont because the team will actually have HOPE for the first time since 1985.

They'll show up at first because "The Islanders are back!" Then they'll show up because the arena will turn their franchise from a second-rate franchise to a "Big Market" franchise. New building revenue + TV revenue from New York = Big Market Franchise
(With suburban charm).

The Islanders TEAM has been mediocre. The Islanders ORGANIZATION has been a shoestring, mismanaged mess for decades. Because of the arena/lease problems.

New Arena = Modern Sports Franchise in New York Market. Something they've never been. They're a sleeping giant.


All the talk of mass transportation and drive times is silly to me. Those are factors that affect the mediocre organization doing things on the cheap.

New York Islanders Arena, owned/run by the Islanders for the Islanders? People will get to the building to watch that franchise.
 

Bucky_Hoyt

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Dec 11, 2005
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People will get to the building to watch that franchise.

But will "enough" people do that?

And what about the other dates of the year? Arenas rely on multiple events to keep afloat. With three other 15k+ and better located arenas plus the renovated NVMC at 11k+ that's simply too much arena competiton even for good ol' metro New York.

For comparison:

Metro London (pop. 15m) has one 20k+ event space in the O2 and SSE Wembley Arena is the next largest at 12k+ (equivalent to the pre-reno NVMC).

Metro Tokyo (pop. 36m) has the Saitama Super Arena 19-35k+, the Budokan 14k+, Ryogoku (rarely used for anything but Sumo) 11k+, the Metro Gymnasium 10k+, Ariake Coliseum (rarely used for anything but Tennis) 10k+, Yokohama Arena 17k+ and will be getting a renovated Yoyogi Gymnasium 13k+ for the 2020 Olympics.

At best, 2 of those resemble multi-purpose arenas in comparison to Metro NY's 4 current and this 1 proposed.
 

BattleBorn

50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
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On the other hand, Las Vegas with 2.1 million people (and 44 million annual visitors) has three 17,000+ arenas (plus a 20,000+ supposedly on the way,) one 12,000 arena, and one 9,000+ arena all coexisting.

I'm sure they could make it work in NYC. It's all about programming and booking the right events.
 

Bucky_Hoyt

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Dec 11, 2005
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On the other hand, Las Vegas with 2.1 million people (and 44 million annual visitors) has three 17,000+ arenas (plus a 20,000+ supposedly on the way,) one 12,000 arena, and one 9,000+ arena all coexisting.

I'm sure they could make it work in NYC. It's all about programming and booking the right events.

Are they mostly centrally located? I think that plays a major factor.
 

Ingvar

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Jan 16, 2016
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But will "enough" people do that?

And what about the other dates of the year? Arenas rely on multiple events to keep afloat. With three other 15k+ and better located arenas plus the renovated NVMC at 11k+ that's simply too much arena competiton even for good ol' metro New York.

For comparison:

Metro London (pop. 15m) has one 20k+ event space in the O2 and SSE Wembley Arena is the next largest at 12k+ (equivalent to the pre-reno NVMC).

Metro Tokyo (pop. 36m) has the Saitama Super Arena 19-35k+, the Budokan 14k+, Ryogoku (rarely used for anything but Sumo) 11k+, the Metro Gymnasium 10k+, Ariake Coliseum (rarely used for anything but Tennis) 10k+, Yokohama Arena 17k+ and will be getting a renovated Yoyogi Gymnasium 13k+ for the 2020 Olympics.

At best, 2 of those resemble multi-purpose arenas in comparison to Metro NY's 4 current and this 1 proposed.

London in the near future will have 5 60000+ football arenas and already has 3. That's got to count for something.
 

Bucky_Hoyt

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Dec 11, 2005
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London in the near future will have 5 60000+ football arenas and already has 3. That's got to count for something.

Agreed, that is a lot but all are open air outdoor facilities and almost all of them are loss leaders or are write-downs or just damned ancient - like 125 years old or more. And don't get me started on how ridiculous that is, as football clubs play maybe 25 home dates a year including friendlies and UEFA if they are lucky enough to qualify. You would think these clubs would move on from the rivalries of old and just share venues to actually turn a profit. They just haven't and are unlikely to.

Also, rarely do you get non-sporting events at any of the outdoor facilities save for Wembley, Queen E and Twickenham.

I don't live in NY but I imagine the larger outdoor venues don't get that many events in comparison to the indoor ones.
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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The idea that the New York market would be OVERSERVED if the Islanders build "Al Arbour Arena" in Belmont is crazy.

Here's CONCERT ticket sales by Arena for 2017 (mid-year, thru June), from Pollstar:

USA Ranks:
1. Barclays (BRK, NYI)
2. MSG (NYK, NYR, NYL)
4. Rock (NJD)
50. NVMC (none)
51. United Center Chicago (Bulls/Hawks)

The demand for concert venue dates in NYC Metro Area is totally there.
 

Bucky_Hoyt

Registered User
Dec 11, 2005
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The idea that the New York market would be OVERSERVED if the Islanders build "Al Arbour Arena" in Belmont is crazy.

Here's CONCERT ticket sales by Arena for 2017 (mid-year, thru June), from Pollstar:

USA Ranks:
1. Barclays (BRK, NYI)
2. MSG (NYK, NYR, NYL)
4. Rock (NJD)
50. NVMC (none)
51. United Center Chicago (Bulls/Hawks)

The demand for concert venue dates in NYC Metro Area is totally there.

Doesn't this prove the exact opposite? The drop from 4th to 50th is substantial. And this is a venue that actually has regular transit access (LIRR) compared to Belmont. Wouldn't the "Al Arbour" rank even lower than NVMC if built?
 

MJF

Hope is not a strategy
Sep 6, 2003
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Doesn't this prove the exact opposite? The drop from 4th to 50th is substantial. And this is a venue that actually has regular transit access (LIRR) compared to Belmont. Wouldn't the "Al Arbour" rank even lower than NVMC if built?
Are you saying NVMC has regular LIRR service? The exact opposite is true. There is no public transportation available there.

Also you should note that NVMC didn’t reopen until April, so those 2017 rankings are skewed.
 

denis5

Registered User
Mar 13, 2007
537
452
Are you saying NVMC has regular LIRR service? The exact opposite is true. There is no public transportation available there.

Also you should note that NVMC didn’t reopen until April, so those 2017 rankings are skewed.
I think that the original point is that even with all of the venues in the metro region, NVMC out performed the United Center in Chicago, pointing to the demand being there. Anyway, forget the Islanders, some people that know a heck of a lot more about the concert business than we do --i.e. MSG and Oak View -- seem to think that the arena would be profitable enough to invest in. That's good enough for me.
 

GordonGecko

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some people that know a heck of a lot more about the concert business than we do --i.e. MSG and Oak View -- seem to think that the arena would be profitable enough to invest in. That's good enough for me.
do we actually know that though? We haven't heard a thing about financing this thing. I would not be surprised one bit to see them going hat in hand to the state looking for public funds to build so they have nothing to lose if it flops
 

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