Two sides: Close as they have ever been

[Larionov]

Those "sources" obviously had some inside info, and were obviously good sources, because mainstream media will generally not run with a story unless they are pretty convinced it is legit. One day, we'll get the real story of what went on in February, but I suspect it went down like this:

The 'PA put the word out that they were heading to New York to do a deal. The League believed them, and off went Mario and Wayne to try to help broker a deal on that Saturday.

Goodenow, meanwhile, thought that he finally had the League on the run, and that, as he suspected all along, they desperately wanted a deal to save this season. Therefore, he had his boys go all hardline at the Saturday meeting, looking for a whack of concessions on other issues before they were even willing to talk about a cap number. Goodenow gambled that the league wouldn't dare walk away at this stage after getting the hopes of their fans up in that manner, but he lost his bet. The League walked away again, determined not to be stampeded into a bad deal.

The fact that the 'PA rejected an unlinked $42 million cap in February, but will now be forced to accept a linked cap at a lower number, will prove to be Goodenow's undoing. I suspect he will resign shortly after this CBA gets inked, so that he spares himself the indignity of being turfed.

 

[SENSible1*]

I'm sick of all these "sources". Unless it's on TSN.ca or Bob McKenzie him self is saying it, I take it with a major grain of salt, and pretty much ignore it.
Not that this story is impossible to be true, but i'm just kind of tired of all the sources saying different things, there never seems to be a real consensus among these "sources"

Heck, if I believed all the sources, I would be sitting by my T.V. every night watching ESPN/ESPN 2 wondering why the playoffs aren't on T.V. since the "sources" said that a deal was done at a 45 million cap on the hockey news and ESPN news.

Re-read this article by McKenzie in light of these rumours and see what conclusion you come to.

 

[GKJ]

Only if you assume that Goodenow still has the power to squash a deal that other important members of the PA think is workable.

Which he doesn't, and is why they brought in Mike Gartner.

 

[Ola]

I'm sick of all these "sources". Unless it's on TSN.ca or Bob McKenzie him self is saying it, I take it with a major grain of salt, and pretty much ignore it.

Not that this story is impossible to be true, but i'm just kind of tired of all the sources saying different things, there never seems to be a real consensus among these "sources"

Heck, if I believed all the sources, I would be sitting by my T.V. every night watching ESPN/ESPN 2 wondering why the playoffs aren't on T.V. since the "sources" said that a deal was done at a 45 million cap on the hockey news and ESPN news.

I think Brooks so far is by far the one with the best sources. Everything he reported as facts early in the summer of 04' have been right. Then he adds his personal opinion but thats another story. I don't care. He is entilted to have one.

 

[Slats432]

I'm sorry, but I don't get what the big deal is. Why is it such a bad thing to talk about 'sources'?

Might I rephrase.

In general, there is no reason to moderate a discussion about sources. If it is going to turn into bickering about the legitimacy of this or that, (Especially when blogs are involved) then it is good to nip it in the bud.

Discuss sources is fine, bickering back and forth is not.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I'm sick of all these "sources". Unless it's on TSN.ca or Bob McKenzie him self is saying it, I take it with a major grain of salt, and pretty much ignore it.

Not that this story is impossible to be true, but i'm just kind of tired of all the sources saying different things, there never seems to be a real consensus among these "sources"

Heck, if I believed all the sources, I would be sitting by my T.V. every night watching ESPN/ESPN 2 wondering why the playoffs aren't on T.V. since the "sources" said that a deal was done at a 45 million cap on the hockey news and ESPN news.

Didn't TSN.ca break the 'done deal' story right before the season was cancelled that kept us up much of the night?

 

[X8oD]

Didn't TSN.ca break the 'done deal' story right before the season was cancelled that kept us up much of the night?

No

Sportsnet and ESPN did

 

[Mess]

Is optimism fading quickly?

Special to FOXSports.com

The NHL and NHLPA held their longest consecutive set of CBA talks late last week, with Thursday's 14-hour session spilling over into Friday.

Pundits began expressing "cautious optimism" that progress, at long last, may finally be happening.

But just a weekend later, some in the media began expressing nervousness, as "leaks" of deadline demands and "insider" speculations of the PA potentially undermining the process found their way into the headlines.

Full Story : http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/3640668

 

[Jaded-Fan]

No

Sportsnet and ESPN did

Been a while, they definately carried it though, I remember c&p'ing quotes from articles from there.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Is optimism fading quickly?

Special to FOXSports.com

Interesting quote about Goodenow, as the question emerged earlier on who is in charge. It basically says every possibility exists, but even that two of the three leaks being talked about is that Goodenow has been moved to the sidelines means that there have to be rumblings or sources would not be talking to these reporters.

Meanwhile, depending on the source, Goodenow faces a growing number of disgruntled players and agents, or has been replaced by Trevor Linden, Ted Saskin and Mike Gartner, or holds such influence over the players that most are scared to stand up to him.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/3640668

 

[GSC2k2*]

And what's your definition of 'doing his job'? Signing the first piece of paper the NHL puts in front of him?

Why do pro-PA posters always roll out this pitiful cliche every time Goodenow is taken to task? It is worthy of a six-year-old. It is not one extreme or the other.

THe simple truth is that the PA strategy was premised on owners folding, like they did in other sports (MLB). For better or worse, it was an all-or-nothing strategy. Had it worked, the PA would have possibly become as strong as the MLBPA (the gold standard of sports unions). It has turned out to be wrong - an error in judgment. THere were lots of causes. In my view, as a seasoned negotiator, I thought it was flawed at the outset. The circumstances called for a less confrontational, non-ideological negotation strategy, instead of a battle-every-point negotiation.

Incidentally, Goodenow is and never has been a "high-priced consultant". He runs the union, which includes managerial responsibilities and setting of direction, etc. He is not a special hired gun or anything.

 

[GKJ]

Didn't TSN.ca break the 'done deal' story right before the season was cancelled that kept us up much of the night?

That would be THN and then sportsnet and then TSN reported it using THN as the source.

 

[Levitate]

But just a weekend later, some in the media began expressing nervousness, as "leaks" of deadline demands and "insider" speculations of the PA potentially undermining the process found their way into the headlines.

sounds much more like rumors of said things than said things actually happening

stupid media...

 

[LordHelmet]

Might I rephrase.

In general, there is no reason to moderate a discussion about sources. If it is going to turn into bickering about the legitimacy of this or that, (Especially when blogs are involved) then it is good to nip it in the bud.

Discuss sources is fine, bickering back and forth is not.

Who's bickering? Vop posted the obvious paralells between the Garroch and a not-to-be-named-but-consistently-wrong website and I posted in agreement..

From what I've seen, this board is pretty much unanimous in recognizing that the not-to-be-named-but-consistently-wrong website is a joke..

 

[Jester]

And what's your definition of 'doing his job'? Signing the first piece of paper the NHL puts in front of him?

no, negotiating the best possible deal for the NHLPA members with all considerations taken. if you really think the majority of the the NHLPA constituency is going to be "better off" after missing an entire years worth of NHL-level salary you are kidding yourself. it's been posted around here before, what is the average career length for NHL'ers, 4/5 years? maybe less... Goodenow did those guys a great disservice by not getting them on the ice and paid this year.

 

[BigE]

It does?

He's not the only one to say it. Anyone paying any attention to the news lately has no-doubt heard this many times. It shouldn't be a secret by now that Bob is opposed to any sort of deal, period.

He might be a former hockey player but he'll live in hockey hell for the rest of eternity after the **** he's pulled.

 

[LordHelmet]

if you call losing your employer(s) 1.2 billion in pay doing your job... personally i call that completely screwing the pooch on your job.

Why do Bettmanlovers always roll out this pitiful cliche every time Goodenow is mentioned in a news article? It is worthy of a six-year-old.

Seriously, you guys act like it's Goodenow's duty to sign exactly what the owners want with no negotiations whatsoever.

 

[Mess]

sounds much more like rumors of said things than said things actually happening

stupid media...

I like this one best

The possibility that the real reason why he hasn't been ousted is that the majority of players and agents still support him apparently isn't a real factor for consideration by the rumormongers.

On top of that, there is now speculation that Goodenow is attempting to undermine the process, that he has no intention of ever signing a deal with the league, or my favorite, that Saskin, Linden and Gartner will sign the next CBA but not Goodenow.

Now how in the world could that leak out to the media ??

How could you even fact check that for an article ?? You need some one to read minds then, because I am pretty sure that is not round table discussion going on ..

 

[Larionov]

no, negotiating the best possible deal for the NHLPA members with all considerations taken. if you really think the majority of the the NHLPA constituency is going to be "better off" after missing an entire years worth of NHL-level salary you are kidding yourself. it's been posted around here before, what is the average career length for NHL'ers, 4/5 years? maybe less... Goodenow did those guys a great disservice by not getting them on the ice and paid this year.

Agreed. The carnage amongst the 'PAs current membership after a new CBA is going to be gruesome. How many veterans have played their last game and just don't know it yet? For many of them, this past season may have been their last chance to earn a big pay cheque, and the 'PA took it away from them in what has proven to be an ultimately futile battle.

 

[GKJ]

I like this one best


Now how in the world could that leak out to the media ??

The possibility that the real reason why he hasn't been ousted is that the majority of players and agents still support him apparently isn't a real factor for consideration by the rumormongers.

On top of that, there is now speculation that Goodenow is attempting to undermine the process, that he has no intention of ever signing a deal with the league, or my favorite, that Saskin, Linden and Gartner will sign the next CBA but not Goodenow.

How could you even fact check that for an article ?? You need some one to read minds then, because I am pretty sure that is not round table discussion going on ..

If this is the case, it wouldn't take that long to force Goodenow out, by whatever means it necessatated.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Why do Bettmanlovers always roll out this pitiful cliche every time Goodenow is mentioned in a news article? It is worthy of a six-year-old.

Seriously, you guys act like it's Goodenow's duty to sign exactly what the owners want with no negotiations whatsoever.

And on it goes ....

Get your own material.

[EDIT: if you read my post carefully, I said nothing of the sort. I explained fairly clearly how Goodenow should have been astute enough to choose different tactics. Whether he was not astute enough to recognize it, or whether he did recognize it but was too ideologically driven to change, or whether he was astute enough to recognize but did not have enough game to make the change (some lawyers know only one way to play), history will decide.

 

[Levitate]

i also don't get the idea of "goodenow has no intention of signing a deal with the league". what exactly would he gain from that? he'd lose his job if the NHLPA all wanted a deal and refused to sign it.

also the idea that he lost the players all this money and should have gotten them playing again is rather flawed...first, what NHL proposal should he have accepted? they were all quite slanted in the NHLs favor in more ways than just the $$ amount of a cap. those other little details that people gloss over such as arbitration, qualifying offers, etc etc can go a long ways in creating a bad bad CBA for players in the long run and setting up another labor war in the future.

does it do goodenow much good to agree to a bad CBA just to get the players playing again and "save his job" when it turns out to screw the players in the future and then guess what, he probably loses his job at that point cuz everyone blames him for signing the crap CBA?


I'm by no means saying Goodenow has been a great negotiator in all of this and is doing a good job or something, but I also haven't seen him "miss the boat" on any great CBA proposals that have come up so far...

 

[LordHelmet]

no, negotiating the best possible deal for the NHLPA members with all considerations taken. if you really think the majority of the the NHLPA constituency is going to be "better off" after missing an entire years worth of NHL-level salary you are kidding yourself. it's been posted around here before, what is the average career length for NHL'ers, 4/5 years? maybe less... Goodenow did those guys a great disservice by not getting them on the ice and paid this year.

Those are things for the players to decide, aren't they?

If 600 of the 700 union members were clamoring for their leadership to sign whatever's on the table, it would be done.

Obviously everyone wants this resolved, and in my mind there will be a deal in principle or at least some serious promise of a done-deal before ESPN bails and/or sponsor dollars are allocated away from the league.

But so far the PA has made all of the concessions. How can you say that Goodenow is keeping them off the ice when his side is the only one giving any ground? If the owners aren't willing to play ball and make some concessions (which it appears that they have with the examination of finances) then the players aren't going to blame anyone but them.

 

[CGG]

no, negotiating the best possible deal for the NHLPA members with all considerations taken. if you really think the majority of the the NHLPA constituency is going to be "better off" after missing an entire years worth of NHL-level salary you are kidding yourself. it's been posted around here before, what is the average career length for NHL'ers, 4/5 years? maybe less... Goodenow did those guys a great disservice by not getting them on the ice and paid this year.

Why is it that Bettman escapes blame? Isn't it equally his responsibility to get hockey on the ice to not lose momentum, sponsors, fans, etc.? He cancels the season and is applauded while Goodenow is getting lynched for losing his clients one year of salary?

Truth be told, he would have had to convince 700 players to fold like a cheap tent on absolutely every issue to give into the fixed $42.5 million never-to-rise-again cap back in February, along with 75% qualifiers and abolished arbitration. He was, in good conscience, supposed to do this to save 76% of a 28/82 fraction of their 2004-05 salary?

 

[GSC2k2*]

Those are things for the players to decide, aren't they?

If 600 of the 700 union members were clamoring for their leadership to sign whatever's on the table, it would be done.

Obviously everyone wants this resolved, and in my mind there will be a deal in principle or at least some serious promise of a done-deal before ESPN bails and/or sponsor dollars are allocated away from the league.

But so far the PA has made all of the concessions. How can you say that Goodenow is keeping them off the ice when his side is the only one giving any ground? If the owners aren't willing to play ball and make some concessions (which it appears that they have with the examination of finances) then the players aren't going to blame anyone but them.

Surely you don't think there is a rule or convention of some sort saying that, just because one party in a negotiation gives concessions, the other side must respond in kind?

Because I can tell you, lots of times that is not the way it works. Particularly in negotiations where one side is nearly out of business. In times like those, the only negotiation is how much someone is giving up. The side giving up often gets nothing other than the comfort of saying "it could have been worse".

I suspect one can count on one hand the number of people on this board who actually understand how this stuff actually goes.