Proposal: Turris to Columbus

[TaketheCannoli]

The fact that you see this as relevant and as an indictment of his character is the only ridiculous thing I'm reading. There's no indication at all that Turris has asked for anything absurd - the Sens just need to carefully manage their cap situation over the next 2-3 years.

You're quoting a response to a poster who claimed Turris has never hard-balled. He held out until November as an RFA. Go read the articles that were quoted.

Additionally. Columbus needs to carefully manage their cap situation too. In the next couple of years they need to sign: Bobrovsky, Werenski, Panarin, Atkinson, Jenner, Murray, and Jack Johnson. They need guys like PLD on ELCs.

 

[harrisb]

Whatever man, still refusing to explain Murray for two firsts I see and taking quotes out of context, well done again I see...Good luck in the first round, we'll keep Turris and repeat last year. How did Jenner turn out for you last year I forget?

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Whatever man, still refusing to explain Murray for two firsts I see and taking quotes out of context, well done again I see...Good luck in the first round, we'll keep Turris and repeat last year. How did Jenner turn out for you last year I forget?

Nice strawman.

Please quote a post where I said Murray is worth two 1sts. PLEASE.

I quoted the posts where your claims are indisputably inaccurate.

 

[thadman]

And yet they're both wrong.

2017-18 TOI for CBJ blueliners (3GP):
Jones: 23:23
Werenski: 21:29
Savard: 19:34
Johnson: 19:07
Murray: 17:56
Carlsson: 15:33

Murray's TOI ranking among CBJ blueliners:
2017-18: 5th
2016-17: 5th
2015-16: 4th
2014-15: 5th
2013-14: 4th

Current Lines per Daily Faceoff:

Werenski-Jones
Johnson-Savard
Murray-Carlsson

Has never scored more than 26 points per 82 games (despite getting 2:38 PP TOI in 2015-16)
Scored at a 15-point pace last year.
Has not had a corsi > 50% since his rookie season.

Looks like a third-pairing defenseman to me. Low end second-pairing defenseman could be justifiable.

Either way, he's clearly on the third pairing right now. Let me know if that's a clear enough explanation for you.

He's played bottom pair 1 half a season and now it's his whole career... he's played top pair more then double the time he's played bottom pair...

I'm interested to know when he was ever playing top pair minutes given his TOI and production. In his entire career, he has never had more TOI than Johnson, Wisniewski, or Savard (exception for the latter being Murray's rookie season, but he was still only 4th in TOI).

 

[Viqsi]

Hung by your own words again. See your own words bolded. I'm saying you are wrong, it is not agreed as you can see. In this thread, multiple Sens fans agree with you. ONE Columbus fan seems to agree. Multiple Columbus fans say no.

And as the one Jackets fan in question, I feel I should point out it was a very reluctant agreement to the idea being a decent basis, not a final deal to be picked up on. I wanted an insurance add or two; we just didn't get that far.

* * *​

2017-18 TOI for CBJ blueliners (3GP):
Jones: 23:23
Werenski: 21:29
Savard: 19:34
Johnson: 19:07
Murray: 17:56
Carlsson: 15:33

Murray's TOI ranking among CBJ blueliners:
2017-18: 5th
2016-17: 5th
2015-16: 4th
2014-15: 5th
2013-14: 4th

Current Lines per Daily Faceoff:

Werenski-Jones
Johnson-Savard
Murray-Carlsson

Has never scored more than 26 points per 82 games (despite getting 2:38 PP TOI in 2015-16)
Scored at a 15-point pace last year.
Has not had a corsi > 50% since his rookie season.

Looks like a third-pairing defenseman to me. Low end second-pairing defenseman could be justifiable.

Either way, he's clearly on the third pairing right now. Let me know if that's a clear enough explanation for you.

I'll just keep my rebuttal short: Seth Jones in Nashville.

 

[harrisb]

Jones arrived in mid 15/16 I believe which was Murray's best season ice time wise. Even moving him up one spot in that season he doesn't hit top pair. As mentioned, draft ranking be damned he isn't a top pair D. This summer's 2012 redraft of D had him out of the top ten which likely pushes him out of the first round altogether.

 

[thadman]

I'll just keep my rebuttal short: Seth Jones in Nashville.

Seth Jones was third in TOI for his rookie & sophomore seasons, which is something Murray has never done.

Nashville only had Weber & Josi in front of Jones during his first 2 years. Jones earned more TOI than both Ellis and Ekholm.

Columbus had Johnson, Wisniewski, Tyutin, and Savard (14-15 only) in front of Murray during his first 2 years.

We're talking about completely different tiers of competition.

Implying that Murray has better than 3rd pairing upside because Seth Jones went from a 2nd pairing D on Nashville (only behind elite Weber and Josi) to a 1st pairing D on Columbus is completely illogical. Especially considering that despite the fact that Jones has undoubtedly broken out as a top defenseman, he'd arguably still be getting 2nd pairing minutes if he went back to Nashville.

If you want to use Seth Jones as an example for why Ryan Murray has further potential on a different team... you're going to be disappointed, unfortunately.

Regardless....

Hard pass and I mean really hard. Ryan Murray does not equal two firsts. He's a 3rd pairing d at this point, draft pedigree be damned we don't want him.

Jenner+ for Turris makes sense, the above we require Jenner plus PLD.

Murray is indisputably a third pairing D at this point. It's completely justifiable to suggest that he has 2nd pairing upside on the right team. That's true. In fact, I think he might. But clearly, what harrisb said was factually accurate.

 

[Monk]

CBJ should keep Murray. Looks like their best defenseman so far this year.

It's funny how this lineup depth vs player skill conundrum is so prevalent here. Not surprising, but funny. Like "haha" funny.

 

[thadman]

It depends on what you're discussing.

Despite the fact that both relative and raw ice time is directly correlated with player talent, it does indeed have limitations when deriving direct conclusions on player talent based on TOI assessments alone. You'd get a decent baseline, but there would be a number of outliers.

That being said, if all you're trying to prove is that a certain player, by all reasonable definitions, is currently a third-pairing player (regardless of the argument that was intended to be made by said statement), then TOI comparisions is literally the most accurate way to make that determination.

One thing I definitely agree with is that this thread is worthy of a "haha"... from both sides. Probably also a or two.

 

[Monk]

It depends on what you're discussing.

Despite the fact that both relative and raw ice time is directly correlated with player talent, it does indeed have limitations when deriving direct conclusions on player talent based on TOI assessments alone. You'd get a decent baseline, but there would be a number of outliers.

That being said, if all you're trying to prove is that a certain player, by all reasonable definitions, is currently a third-pairing player (regardless of the argument that was intended to be made by said statement), then TOI comparisions is literally the most accurate way to make that determination.

One thing I definitely agree with is that this thread is worthy of a "haha"... from both sides. Probably also a or two.

I can pretty much agree with this. All I can say in disagreement is that a player's "pairing" on a particular team does not necessarily dictate trade value. And that's what this thread is about right?

 

[Xspyrit]

Dubois looks great so far. I don't think I would be willing to move him right now unless it was a significant overpayment.

Turris is probably worth Boone Jenner + a small add. Not an add like Dubois.

My best offer is Jenner + 2nd round pick for Turris and a 5th round pick.

What the ?



Man is this guy ever underrated

Maybe as a rental but I really doubt the Sens would trade Turris as a UFA to be. It would probably be with an extension in place so you don't trade Kyle Turris for a guy that had 49 and 34 pts in his last 2 years.

Horrible for Columbus. Jack Johnson for Turris makes way more sense.

Yeah, makes so much sense for Ottawa as they have Chabot, Jaros and Harpur in the AHL waiting for a spot as well as Lajoie, Englund and Wolanin who will be pushing soon too.

Before you make ridiculous posts, get familiar with the subject.

Kyle Turris has ended his long holdout by signing a multiyear contract with the Phoenix Coyotes.

Turris sat out all of training camp and has missed Phoenix's first 19 games this season.


http://tucson.com/sports/hockey/pro...cle_830f02da-4913-51b4-8546-9af4342eb832.html

Turris, 22, the No. 3 pick in the 2007 draft, refused to sign with Phoenix until Nov. 22 and, during the holdout, requested a trade. Maloney, the Coyotes' GM, didn't budge, got Turris under contract and eventually managed to swing a deal that netted him a solid return.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/211109-kyle-turris-trade-coyotes-senators-for-david-rundblad

Keep his sorry ass.

Wait, you're basing your opinion on what is said in medias?

And if you think that Boud is not informed on that

A little less patently absurd than the OP, but still unlikely to fly. And would Ottawa really go for that, considering that's two Cs leaving the org?

I know PLD was a 3rd OA pick but how good do you expect him to be? Turris was a 3rd OA pick too...

I doubt the Sens go for that. PLD has a long way to go before being close to be as good as Turris. White is an excellent prospect, Paul is underrated and will be an excellent 3rd liner.

The problem in this thread is that people assume that Turris value is that of a UFA-to-be. I think the Sens would rather sign him to a 7 years deal then trade him rather than trade him as a rental.

 

[Monk]

What the ?



Man is this guy ever underrated

Maybe as a rental but I really doubt the Sens would trade Turris as a UFA to be. It would probably be with an extension in place so you don't trade Kyle Turris for a guy that had 49 and 34 pts in his last 2 years.



Yeah, makes so much sense for Ottawa as they have Chabot, Jaros and Harpur in the AHL waiting for a spot as well as Lajoie, Englund and Wolanin who will be pushing soon too.



Wait, you're basing your opinion on what is said in medias?

And if you think that Boud is not informed on that



I know PLD was a 3rd OA pick but how good do you expect him to be? Turris was a 3rd OA pick too...

I doubt the Sens go for that. PLD has a long way to go before being close to be as good as Turris. White is an excellent prospect, Paul is underrated and will be an excellent 3rd liner.

The problem in this thread is that people assume that Turris value is that of a UFA-to-be. I think the Sens would rather sign him to a 7 years deal then trade him rather than trade him as a rental.

Well, he is a UFA to be now, so of course that's how he's valued now. Do true sign-and-trades really happen that often? Like, where the player is re-signed first by the team trading him away? Maybe my perception is wrong, but I feel like the answer is no.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Well, he is a UFA to be now, so of course that's how he's valued now. Do true sign-and-trades really happen that often? Like, where the player is re-signed first by the team trading him away? Maybe my perception is wrong, but I feel like the answer is no.

Ottawa was the last team to do it with Hossa for Heatley. It can happen, but usually it is more respectful to have the player sign with their new team instead.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Rumor has it Ottawa is not willing to commit long term with KT. I love Turris but a 7 or 8 year deal does seem like too much for my liking. Turris is a very underrated centre who is a consistent 50pts centre on a defensive hockey club.

Columbus is looking to make a deep playoff run and with Nick Foligno slotted in as their second line center right now, I think Turris would be a perfect fit.

Ottawa Trades:

Kyle Turris
Nick Paul
* Conditional 1st round pick 2018 if Turris DOES NOT resign *

Columbus Trades:

Pierre Luc Dubois
Boone Jenner


Ottawa Lines:

Hoffman Brassard Stone
Jenner Dubois Ryan
Dzingel Pageau White
Smith Thompson Pyatt

Oduya Karlsson
Phaneuf Ceci
Claesson Wideman
Boro

Andy
Condon

Columbus Lines

Panarin Wennberg Atkinson
Foligno Turris Bjorkstrand
Milano Dubinsky Anderson
Calvert Sedlak Hannikainnen

Werenski Jones
Johnson Savard
Murray Carlsson

Bobrovsky
Korpisalo

Wha...?? A player who wants a long-term deal? NO!!

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

I wonder if some folks actually foll0w pro sports. Is the assumption because Turris HAS to be traded because has not signed a long term deal? Isn't there about 100 upcoming UFAs this summer, do they all get traded too?
And if the excuse is "You can't let walk for nothing", I repeat do the all 100 upcoming UFAs get traded then are signed immediately?

 

[Monk]

I wonder if some folks actually foll0w pro sports. Is the assumption because Turris HAS to be traded because has not signed a long term deal? Isn't there about 100 upcoming UFAs this summer, do they all get traded too?
And if the excuse is "You can't let walk for nothing", I repeat do the all 100 upcoming UFAs get traded then are signed immediately?

Considering that this board exists specifically to talk about rumors and hypothetical scenarios, I don't understand the angst. Someone might very well come along and create a thread for each and every one of those "100 upcoming UFAs" and that seems not only reasonable, but exactly what we're all here to talk about. :shrug

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Monk: I thought for some "talk" should be about team building and helping the team, in this case Ottawa do well in the playoffs.
On this site many folks write that JVR, Bozak, Komarov should be traded cause "you can't let walk away for nothing." Really ?When you need those guys to make a playoff run. Don't know if it's angst, yea but I guess we might see all 100 UFAs on a thread, just because they are UFAs.

 

[TeamRenzo]

I wonder if some folks actually foll0w pro sports. Is the assumption because Turris HAS to be traded because has not signed a long term deal? Isn't there about 100 upcoming UFAs this summer, do they all get traded too?
And if the excuse is "You can't let walk for nothing", I repeat do the all 100 upcoming UFAs get traded then are signed immediately?

It is called asset management, meaning you cannot lose your #1 center for nothing. Yes, it does happen but those are usually lower tier guys or players that are not part of the long term plan. GM's also have to decide if they are buyers or sellers at the deadline.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

What the ?



Man is this guy ever underrated

Maybe as a rental but I really doubt the Sens would trade Turris as a UFA to be. It would probably be with an extension in place so you don't trade Kyle Turris for a guy that had 49 and 34 pts in his last 2 years.



Yeah, makes so much sense for Ottawa as they have Chabot, Jaros and Harpur in the AHL waiting for a spot as well as Lajoie, Englund and Wolanin who will be pushing soon too.



Wait, you're basing your opinion on what is said in medias?

And if you think that Boud is not informed on that



I know PLD was a 3rd OA pick but how good do you expect him to be? Turris was a 3rd OA pick too...

I doubt the Sens go for that. PLD has a long way to go before being close to be as good as Turris. White is an excellent prospect, Paul is underrated and will be an excellent 3rd liner.

The problem in this thread is that people assume that Turris value is that of a UFA-to-be. I think the Sens would rather sign him to a 7 years deal then trade him rather than trade him as a rental.

Apparently Boud was unaware of that because he posted that Turris doesn't have a history of hardballing on negotiations. Anyone holding out to November 19th is playing hardball.

Columbus has no reason to trade PLD away, especially for Turris. Columbus doesn't have the available cap space unless Turris signs for less than $5 million per year. PLD is on an ELC and will be under team control for 6 more years. With Werenski, Bobrovsky, Panarin, Atkinson, Johnson, Anderson and Murray to sign, Columbus needs to develop their own not trade for veterans. That's EXACTLY why the Sens would want to do the deal, a cheap contract for a more expensive one.

Keep Turris, re-sign him or trade him, but not to Columbus.

 

[BurgoShark]

So to address a few things said in this thread re: Kyle Turris...

- He doesn't have a "history" of high contract demands. He had a falling out with his coach as a young player, asked for a trade and got it, and has since been a humble professional in the media when asked about the incident.
- He has signed for below market value on each of his last two contracts, and will probably do so again in Ottawa as long as they are willing to agree to a longer term (6+ years)
- He's a 2 way player and a team-first player by any gauge you can use. I'm not sure why anyone would say he is not a "Torts" player

Regardless of what proposal someone makes, saying that Turris is not a team guy or otherwise citing "character issues" is just plain wrong. For Columbus specifically, citing prior issues with his agent is definitely valid though.

As for the OP, or a Turris trade in general, I would think a player in a situation like PLD is a good example of the return Ottawa would want. Not specifically that player, but a high-end prospect not currently playing a top 6 role. The team getting Turris would be giving up some futures for a Cup run this year. Value and availability aside, some other good examples would be Fiala, Eriksson Ek, Connor, or Pulujarvi. Note that all of these guys play in the West. I'm not sure it is in their best interest to trade one of their best players to a team they might be racing for a wildcard spot.

The other possibility of course is a Turris for Duchene swap, with Colorado flipping Turris for one of these younger guys afterwards.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

Hard pass and I mean really hard. Ryan Murray does not equal two firsts. He's a 3rd pairing d at this point, draft pedigree be damned we don't want him.

Jenner+ for Turris makes sense, the above we require Jenner plus PLD.

Please re-read this.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

It is called asset management, meaning you cannot lose your #1 center for nothing. Yes, it does happen but those are usually lower tier guys or players that are not part of the long term plan. GM's also have to decide if they are buyers or sellers at the deadline.

You said absolutely nothing. First you say "you cannot lose your #1 center for nothing. Then you said"GM's also have to decide if they are buyers or sellers at the deadline." Wow. My suggestion was team management decides whether they buyers or sellers. If Ottawa is position to make the playoffs I doubt if they trade their # 1 centre. Just like most teams.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

If Ottawa is position to make the playoffs I doubt if they trade their # 1 centre. Just like most teams.

This is a very simple concept that, in our era of "asset management" as a buzz term for fans, often gets lost or ignored. Even if Turris isn't inked to a long-term extension by the Sens before the season ends, the value he brings to the team for this year's playoff run (again, as the above quote suggests, assuming Ottawa is in a good position) is better than whatever value the team might get in return for him at the trade deadline. You do run the risk of "losing a player for nothing" but it's a risk worth taking for an improved chance at playoff success this season. Sometimes, players leave teams as UFAs.

 

[innitfam]

Ottawa:

Turris
Claesson
Pyatt

Columbus:

Jenner
Murray
Calvert

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Ottawa:

Turris
Claesson
Pyatt

Columbus:

Jenner
Murray
Calvert

Why does Ottawa do this?