Turncoats in International Hockey

Bryzga lol*

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Yes, but if forced to choose between representing Finland or Sweden, I'm sure many would prefer the latter.

I can't see them choosing Sweden at all unless they had a better chance of making the team (which would be unlikely since both countries are almost neck and neck). If their ancestors have been in Finland for that long, they'll feel Finnish.

I know the citizen issue is different in North America, but could you picture Martin Brodeur choosing France over Canada? Or Ed Belfour joining team England if given a passport?

I'm of french decent, but my ancestors have been here for almost 400 years and I obviously feel more Canadian than French. But...say I was a good hockey player, not good enough for the Canadian team, but good enough for the French one, and France offered me citizenship (if it was permitted) for me to play for them, I'd gladly accept since France feels like me second home even though I haven't been there longer than a month.
 

cupcrazyman

Stupid Sexy Flanders
Aug 14, 2006
16,404
1,469
Leafland
did anyone mention Brett Hull Right Wing
Born Aug 9 1964 -- Belleville, ONT
Height 5.10 -- Weight 200

played for U.S. Hockey .:surrender
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
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I can't see them choosing Sweden at all unless they had a better chance of making the team (which would be unlikely since both countries are almost neck and neck). If their ancestors have been in Finland for that long, they'll feel Finnish.

I know the citizen issue is different in North America, but could you picture Martin Brodeur choosing France over Canada? Or Ed Belfour joining team England if given a passport?

I'm of french decent, but my ancestors have been here for almost 400 years and I obviously feel more Canadian than French. But...say I was a good hockey player, not good enough for the Canadian team, but good enough for the French one, and France offered me citizenship (if it was permitted) for me to play for them, I'd gladly accept since France feels like me second home even though I haven't been there longer than a month.

It is impossible to compare Quebec-France to Ã…land-Sweden. Ã…land has been under Finnish rule for a relatively short amount of time, and it sits right in between Sweden and Finland. Because of the EU, and other Nordic agreements, Ã…landers are entitled to live and work in Sweden, and they maintain close ties with Sweden.
A better analogy might be if a Quebecer who spoke only French was forced to choose between representing England or France.
 

hdw

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Jul 9, 2006
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Stockholm
It is impossible to compare Quebec-France to Ã…land-Sweden. Ã…land has been under Finnish rule for a relatively short amount of time, and it sits right in between Sweden and Finland. Because of the EU, and other Nordic agreements, Ã…landers are entitled to live and work in Sweden, and they maintain close ties with Sweden.
A better analogy might be if a Quebecer who spoke only French was forced to choose between representing England or France.

A 100 years ago when the matter of Ã…land came to a head, when the Russian Grand Duchy of Finland was caught up in the fall of the Russian Empire, Ã…landers petitioned wanted to go back to Swedish rule instead of being part of the new independant Finland.

But the Swedish goverment of that time wasn't very intrested and basicly decided to ignore them and let the new Finnish nation, in the middle of a civil war, sort it out themself.

This was a long time ago but every Ã…lander that I've met are still well aware of that part of their history.

And with the Nordic 'passport union', which predates EU with some 30 years or so, everyone could travel, study and work where they wanted within the Nordic countries anyway so it didn't really matter.

According to my experience they see themself as independant Ã…landers under (some) Finnish jurisdiction and mainland swedes are best used as drunken slobs to sell tax free alcohol to :)
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
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According to my experience they see themself as independant Ã…landers under (some) Finnish jurisdiction and mainland swedes are best used as drunken slobs to sell tax free alcohol to :)

Ah yes, the power cruise from Stockholm!! :yo:
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
3,013
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I have to disagree. Many people from Ã…land speak swedish, study in Sweden, but they support Finnish national teams no matter if it is hockey or Eurovision singing contest.

I have been to Ã…land, it is a beautiful place, life is good there, and I don't think anyone is lining up to leave.

It is no secret that within a generation or two the Swede's in Finland will be completely assimilated with the Finns. That means Ã…landers will have less and less in common with people in Finland. The population of Ã…land is less than 30,000, so an elite athlete would have to leave to find suitable competition. Ã…landers are entitled to live in Sweden or Finland, and many would go to Sweden for obvious reasons. Once they are living in Sweden, I think it is logical that an Ã…lander would probably play for Sweden.

To restate my original point, if an Ã…lander did decide to play for Sweden, I don't think anyone could rightly call them a "Turncoat".

Eurovision has gone down hill after ABBA left the scene!
 

Finnish Flasher

Registered User
Ã…landers are entitled to live in Sweden or Finland, and many would go to Sweden for obvious reasons. Once they are living in Sweden, I think it is logical that an Ã…lander would probably play for Sweden.

Yes and no, lets take my 3 cousins as an example. They are born in Sweden, by Finnish-Estonian parents which latter have adopted Swedish nationality, and all of them hold Swedish passport. Eldest boys think themselves as Finns and youngest thinks himself as a Swede. So you can imagine the noise during Turin hockeyfinal in that family.

I am entitled to live in Sweden or Finland as well (not to mention many other countries) and 300000 Finns do live in Sweden. Typically the first generation Finns are "100% Finns till they die", but generation after generation the connection to the origin weakens. The Finnjävels are well integrated into Swedish society but officials transfered the annual track&field duell to Gothenburg, because there were more Finnish supporters than in the Stockholm area (there are lots of Finnish immigrants in the Gothenburg area).

In USA the situation is different. Many immigrants consider themselves americans as soon as the ink dries in green card. They put "God bless America"-bumper stickers and wear "Stars 'n Stripes"-shirts. (don't get flamed by my intentional sarcasm and generalizations)

To restate my original point, if an Ã…lander did decide to play for Sweden, I don't think anyone could rightly call them a "Turncoat".

They would be turncoats. As an example a runner Janne Holmen who is from Ã…land, speaks Finnish only a little, lives in Sweden, runs under Finnish flag. Mariehamn IFK plays hockey in the Finnish league (3rd division) etc.

Eurovision has gone down hill after ABBA left the scene!

But after Lordi rocked da house, it has been much more interesting :D
 

Sayuri

Registered User
Dec 30, 2006
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Alberta, Canada
This is such an interesting topic, it's one of those things that doesn't really have an answer. I think maybe when it comes down to it who you are is your own choice. For example, I'm from Canada. My family tree can be traced back to Scotland, Ireland, England and Norway, but I am Canadian. I would never consider myself to be anything else, even if I did spend a significant amount of time in another country or married someone from another country. I think maybe the difference is that in the west nationality became more important because when the countries were being forged so many of the people were from different parts of the world. All these different cultures and religions came together to form larger countries. While people still retained their heritage and traditions they became of a different nationality.

Europe and Asia have a much different and older history. There is a lot more bad blood and more emphasis on factors like religion. It doesn't seem to really be as cut and dry as to "who you are" and where a person's loyalty lies. Not that it is completly cut and dry in the west, but when all is said and done most will say they are either Canadian or American etc. not Jewish or Muslim or from a different country, even if that is where their ancestors are from or what religion they are. I'm not positive but from what I have read that is not the case in other parts of the world.

That being said it could get interesting if suddenly Canada did decide to split up and there was hypothetically B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan - Manitoba, Ontario, Maritimes, and Atlantic provinces - Quebec - Territories. Would I then consider myself to no longer be Canadian but a resident of the United Provinces of British Alberchewan? Who knows, but I am thinking I would make that choice. That would be weird though.
 

Kit Fisto

Registered User
Aug 16, 2006
36
1
Uppsala, Sweden
I have to disagree. Many people from Ã…land speak swedish, study in Sweden, but they support Finnish national teams no matter if it is hockey or Eurovision singing contest.

That's pretty much how it is. I'm from Åland, my Finnish is lousy, I'm going to study in Sweden, but I still support the Finnish national teams/athletes/etc. no matter what and most of us do the same. For example, I went to a bar when Finland and Sweden played for the Olympic gold, and I'd say at least 90% supported Finland. But of course some people here root for Sweden. Those people usually see Finland as something evil that wants to "förfinska" Åland, and take away our "precious" Swedish. It wouldn't surprise me if they voted for the party that wants to make Åland an independent nation as well.

Anyway, if a,for example, hockey-player from Ã…land were to play for Sweden, I would definitely see that person as a turncoat.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
3,013
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That's pretty much how it is. I'm from Ã…land, my Finnish is lousy, I'm going to study in Sweden, but I still support the Finnish national teams/athletes/etc. no matter what and most of us do the same.

Anyway, if a,for example, hockey-player from Ã…land were to play for Sweden, I would definitely see that person as a turncoat.

My children are dual Canadian / Swedish citizens, and have been since birth. I guess if they ever had to make a choice as to which country to represent, they'd be a turncoat in someones eyes.

Would some Finns call you a turncoat for leaving Finland to study in Sweden?
 

Kit Fisto

Registered User
Aug 16, 2006
36
1
Uppsala, Sweden
My children are dual Canadian / Swedish citizens, and have been since birth. I guess if they ever had to make a choice as to which country to represent, they'd be a turncoat in someones eyes.

Would some Finns call you a turncoat for leaving Finland to study in Sweden?

None I've met have had that opinion at least. They pretty much understand that studying in Sweden is easier for us, since most of us have kinda poor skills in Finnish. And I think most of us always intend on coming back after we've finished school.
 

Phil Parent

Sorel, 'fant d'chienne!
Feb 4, 2005
15,833
5,666
Sorel-Tracy, Quebec
Awright, The Swiss may get the Quebecers playing in the NLA. That means Daigle and Gamache, the French-Canadians if you will, Mr. Ambassador.

In exchange, Quebec gets Mark Streit's babies.

All of them except the girls if they have his nose.

Deal?
 

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