Olympics: [TSN] IOC will have to pay for NHL players

[Nino33]

It seems to me that you've taken on quite the biased stance my friend. You go on and on about how the IOC is looking only to benefit itself by having NHL players attend as the flagship sport of the games but yet being insistent on calling all the shots and being inflexible when budging on issues important to the NHL.

And the NHL is doing the exact same thing when they decide that the 2018 games don't work for them in terms of exposure but we'll likely be interested when it comes to the next games in 2022 because China is market where we can grow the game similar to how the NBA has. You can make it seem as though this is mere speculation with no legs but every pundit, analyst, or person close to the league knows that this is a very real likelihood.....

You can call it biased, that's your right, but I don't think I'm biased/prejudiced (haven't been an NHL fan since the early 90s so I'm not supporting the NHL, I don't really like the modern hockey game and think there's way to much money involved, thus I don't see the bias I allegedly have)


I'm not a big NHL fan anymore, and I'm not a fan of European/Russian Leagues, and even less a fan of patriotism/nationalism (and thus don't care much at all about the Olympics). I'm 100% fine with people disagreeing (that's their/your right!), and I don't think my opinion is necessarily "in the majority" here at HFBoards, but I think I have a right to express my opinion just like anyone else (without the personal attacks/attempt at silencing that some resort to)

I'm not sure why I'm getting attacked like I am, I suspect it's because I answer back; I think it's sad that apparently my only solution to not get attacked is to not post...I don't think it's a good thing to tell others how their opinions about hockey are inappropriate (as if they shouldn't be posted) and/or attacking them personally - they're just opinions about hockey, they're not important in the grand scheme of things IMO


For me things like racism/swearing/etc (the kind of stuff mods remove) is what's "inappropriate" not the opinions of others that I don't agree with & while I wouldn't go so far as calling patriotism a mental disease (as someone did in one of these threads about the Olympics/NHL participation) I do think that such a view is closer to my sentiments than many of the views I'm seeing posted (in most all cases I simply don't see patriotism/nationalism as a good thing)

 

[paul-laus]

I mean... China is over a billion people and there are a lot of Chinese people who come to North America - for school, for work exchanges, for tourism.

The potential is big. South Korea is what? 1 1/2 times the size of Canada population wise?

Do you really shut down your league for 2 weeks so the IOC can take your players and make money off them? The IOC isn't giving the NHL any chance to really promote itself or use any content. That's problematic from the perspective of the NHL who are the ones losing out (not the IOC - even if they foot insurance bills).

The size of a market like China and the high profile nature of hockey at the Winter Olympics makes it important for the NHL to send the best players in the world but the small size of South Korea is not worth it.

Great. I get it. The relationship between the Olympics and the NHL doesn't work for Bettman and the league owners. Understandable. But then pull the pin on it all together and move forward with the World Cup of Hockey. I think it's beyond lame that the NHL is trying to now dictate their own terms for participation. IE) "We don't like what Korea offers us in terms of exposure and opportunities to grow the game so we'll take a pass, but hey when China comes up, we're in because that's a market that works for us". Gimme a break....

 

[Xokkeu]

Yes, English is my first language (and it's "your" not "you're")

And I said "European/Russian hockey Leagues are essentially the same as NASL/MSL soccer" which is comparing European/Russian hockey Leagues (to the NHL) with the NASL/MSL (with elite European Elite Soccer Leagues) - just like the NASL/MSL is irrelevant to elite European soccer Leagues, the elite European/Russian hockey Leagues are irrelevant to the NHL


You turned that into "compared NASL and MLS" (comparing the two NA soccer leagues) & "and then doubled down comparing NLA and KHL" (comparing the NLA and KHL).....maybe your lack of English understanding is why you did this, and you didn't mean to, but it is what you did/what your words meant

I suspect you did this because English is not your first language? I've seen you on multiple occasions miss the point of other posters (like you did with me in this case), and attributed it to lack of English understanding

Mls and NASL aren't remotely the same thing. One is a pretend league slowly dying. Another just sold a franchise for $110 million.

As for irrelevance, why are European clubs partnering with MLS clubs, doing North American tours...? Because they recognize the massive revenue streams in North America to be bad. Irrelevant? Hardly

The NHL also isn't stupid. They aren't trying to increase the KHL brand. Why on earth would they? They are looking to expand the NHL brand internationally just like every sports league.

 

[Nino33]

Mls and NASL aren't remotely the same thing. One is a pretend league slowly dying. Another just sold a franchise for $110 million.

As for irrelevance, why are European clubs partnering with MLS clubs, doing North American tours...? Because they recognize the massive revenue streams in North America to be bad. Irrelevant? Hardly

The NHL also isn't stupid. They aren't trying to increase the KHL brand. Why on earth would they? They are looking to expand the NHL brand internationally just like every sports league.

NASL teams move into the MSL (Minnesota FC is the most recent team to do so, as they were in the NASL 2010-2016 and start in the MSL next year), so I don't think it's as irrelevant as you do (but I do agree there's a huge difference in talent/money between the two Leagues.....but when you include every European/Russian hockey League and compare top to bottom there's also a huge difference in talent/money too, so I think the comparison is valid).

I agree North America is a market with extra/available entertainment dollars, and soccer/football is increasing in North America, so it makes sense that European soccer/football Leagues would be looking to capitalize on such an opportunity.....but IMO European/Russian hockey interest is not enough for the NHL to care much (and China virtually not at all); the extra/available entertainment dollars don't seem worth it to put significant effort in, so I don't think the NHL cares much myself

IMO the KHL is no different than the Russian League from the 1970s (I don't believe at all the propaganda that it's a "competitor" in any way with the NHL); I realize some believe that European/Russian hockey Leagues should be relevant/matter to NA/the NHL (usually those that live there and who spend a great deal of time criticizing and/or minimizing the NHL), but I'm not one of them.....IMO it's not even that the average NA hockey fan "looks down" on such Leagues, they simply don't care about them at all (and have no interest to)

IMO in North America there's a relevant interest in football/soccer from outside of NA (as well as within), but in regards to hockey they don't care about what's played outside of NA; as I've said previously, IMO while they'll watch the Olympics every 4 years (as "entertainment") they don't "care" much


Xokkeu, I'm not trying to get you to change your views, I accept that we don't see things the same way, but I'm not uninformed and I understand English just fine...I simply don't agree with your views

 

[Xokkeu]

NASL teams move into the MSL (Minnesota FC is the most recent team to do so, as they were in the NASL 2010-2016 and start in the MSL next year), so I don't think it's as irrelevant as you do (but I do agree there's a huge difference in talent/money between the two Leagues.....but when you include every European/Russian hockey League and compare top to bottom there's also a huge difference in talent/money too, so I think the comparison is valid).

I agree North America is a market with extra/available entertainment dollars, and soccer/football is increasing in North America, so it makes sense that European soccer/football Leagues would be looking to capitalize on such an opportunity.....but IMO European/Russian hockey interest is not enough for the NHL to care much (and China virtually not at all); the extra/available entertainment dollars don't seem worth it to put significant effort in, so I don't think the NHL cares much myself

IMO the KHL is no different than the Russian League from the 1970s (I don't believe at all the propaganda that it's a "competitor" in any way with the NHL); I realize some believe that European/Russian hockey Leagues should be relevant/matter to NA/the NHL (usually those that live there and who spend a great deal of time criticizing and/or minimizing the NHL), but I'm not one of them.....IMO it's not even that the average NA hockey fan "looks down" on such Leagues, they simply don't care about them at all (and have no interest to)

IMO in North America there's a relevant interest in football/soccer from outside of NA (as well as within), but in regards to hockey they don't care about what's played outside of NA; as I've said previously, IMO while they'll watch the Olympics every 4 years (as "entertainment") they don't "care" much


Xokkeu, I'm not trying to get you to change your views, I accept that we don't see things the same way, but I'm not uninformed and I understand English just fine...I simply don't agree with your views

The goal is not to grow the KHL brand in North America. It's to grow the NHL brand outside of North America. More hockey fans means likely more NHL fans. More NHL fans means more money for the NHL from tv and merchandise.

It's the same reason they expanded into the southern US. Bettman is already on record that opening up the Chinese market to the NHL brand is enticing to them. So they certainly care.

 

[Nino33]

The goal is not to grow the KHL brand in North America. It's to grow the NHL brand outside of North America. More hockey fans means likely more NHL fans. More NHL fans means more money for the NHL from tv and merchandise.

It's the same reason they expanded into the southern US. Bettman is already on record that opening up the Chinese market to the NHL brand is enticing to them. So they certainly care.

I don't disagree (I said they didn't care much, not that they didn't care at all)...if you're wondering why I don't think they care much, think of all the criticisms posted regarding the NHL and their stance on the Olympics/marketing in Europe/etc

I've seen it posted many times that the NHL is stupid (or stupid and greedy) regarding the Olympics/marketing in Europe/etc but I think it's more that they care, but not as much as some would like them to

 

[JackSlater]

The goal is not to grow the KHL brand in North America. It's to grow the NHL brand outside of North America. More hockey fans means likely more NHL fans. More NHL fans means more money for the NHL from tv and merchandise.

It's the same reason they expanded into the southern US. Bettman is already on record that opening up the Chinese market to the NHL brand is enticing to them. So they certainly care.

Wait a second... are you basing your statement on actual evidence, and not just your uninformed opinion? What a strange thing to do.

The NHL's reported offer to the NHLPA, if it turns out to be true, is interesting. At the very least it seems to indicate that the IIHF's finance offer is being taken seriously by the NHL. Could be a good sign. But, by the same token, Fasel was apparently not overly optimistic after today's meetings. Several different signs.

 

[Xokkeu]

Wait a second... are you basing your statement on actual evidence, and not just your uninformed opinion? What a strange thing to do.

The NHL's reported offer to the NHLPA, if it turns out to be true, is interesting. At the very least it seems to indicate that the IIHF's finance offer is being taken seriously by the NHL. Could be a good sign. But, by the same token, Fasel was apparently not overly optimistic after today's meetings. Several different signs.

What's the latest?

 

[JackSlater]

What's the latest?

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/source-nhlpa-agree-cba-extension-olympic-participation/

 

[Xokkeu]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/source-nhlpa-agree-cba-extension-olympic-participation/

oh I thought the player's opinions didn't matter....

 

[Nino33]

oh I thought the player's opinions didn't matter....

The "source" is the Donald Fehr.....and Donald Fehr is known to use anything as a negotiating ploy, not for truth telling; for me Donald Fehr has no credibility whatsoever and is the worst in any comparison with the NHL (I don't believe he cares at all about the game or the fans, and I have doubts he cares about most of the players)

 

[29dryden29]

The PA would be stupid to accept those terms that Bettman is asking for lol.

 

[JackSlater]

oh I thought the player's opinions didn't matter....

When your only criteria is - Did the NHL say it? If yes, respond positively; If no, wait for NHL's comment - then of course it is easy to pretend that the players' opinions have no role in Olympic participation. If you haven't followed the issue at all and refuse to bother reading about it, then it becomes that much easier.

The "source" is the Donald Fehr.....and Donald Fehr is known to use anything as a negotiating ploy, not for truth telling; for me Donald Fehr has no credibility whatsoever and is the worst in any comparison with the NHL (I don't believe he cares at all about the game or the fans, and I have doubts he cares about most of the players)

Aha, so we shouldn't believe the media members (who talk to the players) or their labour leader (who talks to and for the players) but we should use just our personal opinions about Donald Fehr in this matter. Interesting, though unreasonable, conclusion.

 

[Nino33]

Aha, so we shouldn't believe the media members (who talk to the players) or their labour leader (who talks to and for the players) but we should use just our personal opinions about Donald Fehr in this matter. Interesting, though unreasonable, conclusion.

When it comes to labour relations and negotiating, if you believe media and what's publicly said by labour leaders (or business leaders) unquestioningly, I'm pretty sure you're in the minority (a tiny, unreasonable minority)


And pretty much everything expressed on this forum is a personal opinion (and what facts there are are used to support personal opinions)

 

[JackSlater]

When it comes to labour relations and negotiating, if you believe media and what's publicly said by labour leaders (or business leaders) unquestioningly, I'm pretty sure you're in the minority (a tiny, unreasonable minority)

And pretty much everything expressed on this forum is a personal opinion (and what facts there are are used to support personal opinions)

We're talking about whether an offer was made. We have the top hockey media reporting on the offer, we have someone to whom the offer would have been made as the source, and we have the other side in no way denying that it was made. So yes, I don't doubt that such an offer was made. Your strawman about believing these people unquestioningly is typically off base, since I am referring to a single situation. There is no reason yet to assume question what has been presented. Of course, when a person like yourself prefers to simply present opinions instead of actually reading the pertinent information (as you actually admitted) then I can see how such a stance is difficult to fathom.

 

[xxxx]

Wait a second... are you basing your statement on actual evidence, and not just your uninformed opinion? What a strange thing to do.

Says a guy who doesn't need one to say that he thinks the NHL's loses over the olympic participation are not noteworthy.

oh I thought the player's opinions didn't matter....

only if they say good things about World Cup

 

[JackSlater]

Says a guy who doesn't need one to say that he thinks the NHL's loses over the olympic participation are not noteworthy.

"One" what? Are you trying to call "evidence" "one"? A very special poster in this thread is giving his opinions, without any evidence, and then literally ignoring actual evidence that exists. My opinion is based on the fact that the missed games are simply played at another time and on the fact that I can find no evidence to the contrary. If you are able to provide evidence to the contrary, then once again please provide it.

Since you failed to properly respond last time I made that request, either due to reading or logical error, I will clarify that request for you. Requesting the information does not, despite your strawman last time, mean that I am declaring that the NHL is required to provide me with evidence. Most people can see that I hope, but you failed last time. If you have the evidence to demonstrate that my suggestion is wrong, you can surely supply it. If you again whine that the NHL doesn't have to give that evidence, I will assume once again that you actually cannot find the evidence. To even give you a hand, I see the potential player injuries (one significant injury in five tournaments, insurance in place though) and the missed all star game (hardly a proven big money maker, and revenues are shared with players) but nothing else.

only if they say good things about World Cup

If you look up, you can probably still see the point flying wayyy over your head. You said that only the opinions of the NHL matter with regard to Olympic participation, and yet even your precious NHL proved this week that the opinion of the players actually matters very much. Even the NHL proved you factually wrong.

 

[29dryden29]

NHLPA rejects NHL offer for Olympics.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhlpa-rejects-nhl-s-olympics-offer-1.622523

 

[JackSlater]

NHLPA rejects NHL offer for Olympics.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhlpa-rejects-nhl-s-olympics-offer-1.622523

Yes, that was expected, but at least Fehr is indicating that they plan to continue negotiations. Better than nothing I suppose.