Olympics: [TSN] IOC will have to pay for NHL players

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I don't think the NHL players will care enough to make such a point (IMO the Olympics aren't that important to the vast majority of NHLers, regardless of their country of origin/nationality)

Well apparently you don't bother researching your opinions at all. The players have been the driving force for NHL participation in the last few Olympics. That's public record. I am once again confused about why people post these things in here without being even remotely informed about the subject that they are attempting to discuss.
 

holyprime

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Oct 5, 2010
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The IOC isn't giving the NHL any chance to really promote itself or use any content. That's problematic from the perspective of the NHL who are the ones losing out (not the IOC - even if they foot insurance bills).
Maybe that's not really available in english media, but if you can, read/watch something outside of NA during the Olympics. I don't think you can imagine how focused the media is on the "NHL Stars" and "the best league in the world" during that tournament.

The commentators are excited about them, newspapers bring background stories from their countries players, which are also invited into the studio and talk about the league and how good it is. It actually is kind of annoying if you follow the NHL, because it sometimes is really over the top.

But for a casual sports fan it works, i get asked questions (about the NHL) people wouldn't even think about outside of the Olympics. And it's a positiv exposure, because it is not interrupting you from what you actually like to watch, but it expands on it.
In comparison, i will never ever buy an american car. And i got that hatred for them solely by watching a few NHL games a year.

The best thing tough, at least for those who value money over a sports event, you can get these fanboy reporters in many different countries for basically free.

Anyway in the end this all doesn't really matter, because the NHL doesn't care about any market outside of NA, as they have demonstrated with that world cup abomination and it's scheduling.
 

ulvvf

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May 9, 2014
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If NHL players come to olympics, I hope that is the end of NHL influence, so it do not become like last time, with NHL refs and NHL rules.If there are NHL refs it becomes a canadian cup., and then it can not be taken serisouly anyway. The corruption have to stop. Shall be so hard to play fair internationall tournament without 2 countries controlling everything to give themself benifits?

NHL influence overall should be non existent. It is a shame that hockey shall be such a corrupt sport thanks to NHL. Fasel basically works for NHL.
 

holyprime

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If NHL players come to olympics, I hope that is the end of NHL influence, so it do not become like last time, with NHL refs and NHL rules.
Altough the influence the NHL has certainly isn't helping the sport, it's only NHL rinks if the Olympics are in NA. That is totally fine, it would've been quite stupid to build an international sized rink in downtown Vancouver.
 

Nino33

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Anyway in the end this all doesn't really matter, because the NHL doesn't care about any market outside of NA
The market outside of NA is essentially irrelevant because the interest is so low...when pro Leagues outside of NA can generate the needed revenue to actually compete with the NHL then you could say there's a market, but there isn't

I'd like to see a higher quality of soccer/football in Canada while still paying the much lower prices that I pay to watch the local team now (Edmonton FC in the NASL).....should owners and players worldwide severely reduce what they make so I can have it? should they care about "the market" for the game in Canada even when to them it's irrelevant?
 

Nino33

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Well apparently you don't bother researching your opinions at all. The players have been the driving force for NHL participation in the last few Olympics. That's public record. I am once again confused about why people post these things in here without being even remotely informed about the subject that they are attempting to discuss.
Is there anything you can point to that supports this "driving force that's public record"?

If you're unaware that talk of how the NHL might not participate has been going on for awhile you should use Google and educate yourself...besides a handful or players that have spoken out about wanting to participate in the Olympics, I don't recall player consensus on the issue (shouldn't there be hundreds of players speaking out about it? at least over a hundred? seems to me you're the one that's not even remotely informed about what you're discussing)


Given the vast majority of NHLers don't play in the Olympics, why do you think the majority would even care about them? I suspect the fact that the vast majority don't play in the Olympics is a big part of the reason why the players didn't push to have it included in the CBA (why would the players not have it included if it mattered so much to them as you claim?)
 

Xokkeu

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The IOC's decisions are only for the benefit of the IOC & the argument about skipping South Korea while wanting to be in China is just pure speculation (a strawman argument so the NHL can be bashed)



I don't think the NHL players will care enough to make such a point (IMO the Olympics aren't that important to the vast majority of NHLers, regardless of their country of origin/nationality)

Well considering every reporter who talks to the players says the opposite I'll trust them
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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If NHL players come to olympics, I hope that is the end of NHL influence, so it do not become like last time, with NHL refs and NHL rules.If there are NHL refs it becomes a canadian cup., and then it can not be taken serisouly anyway. The corruption have to stop. Shall be so hard to play fair internationall tournament without 2 countries controlling everything to give themself benifits?

NHL influence overall should be non existent. It is a shame that hockey shall be such a corrupt sport thanks to NHL. Fasel basically works for NHL.

Care to show some video evidence of this corruption? You have always refused in the past, but I'm hopeful that one day you will actually show us the evidence of this corruption.

Is there anything you can point to that supports this "driving force that's public record"?

If you're unaware that talk of how the NHL might not participate has been going on for awhile you should use Google and educate yourself...besides a handful or players that have spoken out about wanting to participate in the Olympics, I don't recall player consensus on the issue (shouldn't there be hundreds of players speaking out about it? at least over a hundred? seems to me you're the one that's not even remotely informed about what you're discussing)


Given the vast majority of NHLers don't play in the Olympics, why do you think the majority would even care about them? I suspect the fact that the vast majority don't play in the Olympics is a big part of the reason why the players didn't push to have it included in the CBA (why would the players not have it included if it mattered so much to them as you claim?)

Once again, I am confused as to why you are trying to discuss something that you apparently have not researched at all. It has been widely discussed in the media for years that the players generally wanted to go to the Olympics, and the owners generally did not. It is common knowledge to anyone who has followed NHL participation since even before the 2006 Olympics.

Since you apparently need me to do your research for you, here you go from Bob McKenzie:

"Historically, it's been the Players' Association that has largely driven NHL participation in the Olympics. The players — those who actually play in the Olympics as well as those who get a two-plus week break in February — have been huge supporters of the Olympic movement."

http://www.tsn.ca/clock-ticking-on-nhl-olympic-decision-1.607878

None of this is new information of course, since, as I said, this has been publicly discussed in the media for over a decade at this point. Even to your point about the non-participating players, it's been reported that those players enjoy the break in the season and in some cases wanted non-Olympic seasons to also have a break. Once again though, I shouldn't be the one doing your research for you. You are spouting off opinions about things that are public knowledge - go read about it.
 

holyprime

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Oct 5, 2010
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The market outside of NA is essentially irrelevant because the interest is so low...when pro Leagues outside of NA can generate the needed revenue to actually compete with the NHL then you could say there's a market, but there isn't
Do i really have to explain to you why a team like SC Bern (can't stand them, its just the biggest), eventough it has a higher avg attendance than 7 NHL franchises and unlike many of them actually makes a profit, can probably never generate a revenue remotely close to any of them?

In fact, the NLA generates more revenue than any other european league outside the KHL. Does that make it the second most relevant, eventough level of competition is higher in at least 2 others?

I'd like to see a higher quality of soccer/football in Canada while still paying the much lower prices that I pay to watch the local team now (Edmonton FC in the NASL).....should owners and players worldwide severely reduce what they make so I can have it? should they care about "the market" for the game in Canada even when to them it's irrelevant?
That's the opposite tough. I'm not complaining about the NLA here, i like "our" league. Nobody would've had a problem to pay higher prices during the lockout (i can't recall if they actually were higher) either.
And i highly doubt you have problems watching a premier league game in any bigger city in Canada, even if you don't have a TV or internet connection yourselves.

My point was, why would the NHL care about promotion if they don't plan on capitalizing on it outside of NA anyway (which you agree on)?
 

Nino33

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Do i really have to explain to you why a team like SC Bern (can't stand them, its just the biggest), eventough it has a higher avg attendance than 7 NHL franchises and unlike many of them actually makes a profit, can probably never generate a revenue remotely close to any of them?
I'm assuming your ticket prices are far lower, and your salaries are far lower, and your TV contracts/etc pay far less too, so your attendance is not really relevant in regards to a business comparison with an NHL team (what's it cost to get an NLA team? a KHL team? Current NHL price, based on Las Vegas, is half a billion US just to get in!)



In fact, the NLA generates more revenue than any other european league outside the KHL. Does that make it the second most relevant, eventough level of competition is higher in at least 2 others?
I don't consider the KHL a real business; the KHL requires constant government funding to exist (and still has teams regularly not meeting payroll/dropping out of the League), and basic things like players salaries are "secret"

Seems to me European/Russian hockey Leagues are essentially the same as NASL/MSL soccer.....they're not in any way actually competitive (financially) with the top League in the world, they're more a "local" thing

In a room alone with Ovechkin (or whatever top pro you'd like to pick) you or I would be the second best hockey player in the room, but in that case being "second" is essentially meaningless...that's an exaggeration to make the point of how I see European/Russian Leagues (because of the the huge financial differences with the NHL)



My point was, why would the NHL care about promotion if they don't plan on capitalizing on it outside of NA anyway (which you agree on)?
Financially I'm not sure there's very much to capitalize on
 

Nino33

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Once again, I am confused as to why you are trying to discuss something that you apparently have not researched at all. It has been widely discussed in the media for years that the players generally wanted to go to the Olympics, and the owners generally did not. It is common knowledge to anyone who has followed NHL participation since even before the 2006 Olympics.
And yet not in the 2005 CBA or the 2013 CBA


Care to show some video evidence of this corruption? You have always refused in the past, but I'm hopeful that one day you will actually show us the evidence of this corruption.
Wow, you're not rational/you just bash the NHL; if you're going to deny corruption exists in the IOC I'm done talking with you (if you want "evidence" Google is your friend)
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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And yet not in the 2005 CBA or the 2013 CBA

So instead of simply owning up when you are proven wrong, you prefer to grasp at small straws. Instead of learning from this and actually researching what you attempt to discuss, you fall back into the very same trap. The 2005 collective bargaining agreement actually did include that the players would participate in 2006 and 2010, subject to agreement with the IIHF. I suppose it is easier to just post your assumptions than easily accessible facts though. The subsequent CBA left the matter open for negotiation later, with both sides - the NHLPA wanting Olympic participation, the owners not wanting Olympic participation - agreeing to save the season and discuss the matter later. Hence why the discussions regarding the 2014 Olympics carried on after the CBA was in place.

This is a pointless discussion though, since I already proved to you (since you seem disinclined to look into the matter yourself) the common knowledge that the players want to participate in the Olympics. Once again, it's better to simply admit that you're wrong and learn from it than to dig in and just keep making the same mistakes. If you want to discuss this topic, inform yourself.

Wow, you're not rational/you just bash the NHL; if you're going to deny corruption exists in the IOC I'm done talking with you (if you want "evidence" Google is your friend)

I recommend comprehending before flying off the handle. The IOC is a horrible organization that is obviously corrupt. The poster that I quoted, who has repeated the same spiel for years, was saying that the NHL, the IIHF and the Olympic tournament itself are corrupt. He has repeatedly said that the referees were biased and so on. When he does this, I often ask him to show the video evidence that bears this point out. It has very little, despite the conclusion that you ignorantly jumped to, with the IOC.

If you want to comment on my replies to others, you should at least attempt to understand what the reply was made in response to.
 

Xokkeu

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Apr 5, 2012
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I'm assuming your ticket prices are far lower, and your salaries are far lower, and your TV contracts/etc pay far less too, so your attendance is not really relevant in regards to a business comparison with an NHL team (what's it cost to get an NLA team? a KHL team? Current NHL price, based on Las Vegas, is half a billion US just to get in!)



I don't consider the KHL a real business; the KHL requires constant government funding to exist (and still has teams regularly not meeting payroll/dropping out of the League), and basic things like players salaries are "secret"

Seems to me European/Russian hockey Leagues are essentially the same as NASL/MSL soccer.....they're not in any way actually competitive (financially) with the top League in the world, they're more a "local" thing

In a room alone with Ovechkin (or whatever top pro you'd like to pick) you or I would be the second best hockey player in the room, but in that case being "second" is essentially meaningless...that's an exaggeration to make the point of how I see European/Russian Leagues (because of the the huge financial differences with the NHL)



Financially I'm not sure there's very much to capitalize on

Haha you just compared NASL and MLS and then doubled down comparing NLA and KHL.

Okay serious international sports business discussions are over
 

Nino33

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Jul 5, 2015
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This is a pointless discussion though, since I already proved to you (since you seem disinclined to look into the matter yourself) the common knowledge that the players want to participate in the Olympics. Once again, it's better to simply admit that you're wrong and learn from it than to dig in and just keep making the same mistakes. If you want to discuss this topic, inform yourself.
My thinking the NHL has a right to do what they deem is in their best interest and my opinion on the Olympics (that it doesn't grow the game/matter in a significant way) isn't reliant on player desire to go, so you didn't prove me wrong about anything as far as I'm concerned


The poster that I quoted...
My apologies, I honestly was confused/didn't notice you were quoting someone else at the time I responded
 

holyprime

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Oct 5, 2010
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I'm assuming your ticket prices are far lower, and your salaries are far lower, and your TV contracts/etc pay far less too, so your attendance is not really relevant in regards to a business comparison with an NHL team (what's it cost to get an NLA team? a KHL team? Current NHL price, based on Las Vegas, is half a billion US just to get in!)
Well, mostly it's because TV contracts, merchandice etc are worth a lot more in a half continent (including the most hockey crazy nation known to mankind) with 400 Mio people than in a country with less than 8 Mio (where 1/3 of the population speaks two and a half other languages) ;)

You can't buy into a league outside the KHL, only existing teams, or lower league and then truckload some money and try to gain promotion(s). The last team that got sold, EHC Kloten (oldest not relegated team, bottom half the last few years) from canadian Avenir Group to a swiss Millionair was rumored 10 Mio, with a rumored annual deficit of around 6-8 Mio.

Seems to me European/Russian hockey Leagues are essentially the same as NASL/MSL soccer.....they're not in any way actually competitive (financially) with the top League in the world, they're more a "local" thing
Don't know much about the KHL, i just watch some highlights, but some teams certainly can compete with NHL franchises (not just financially, altough probably not competing for the cup).
But other than that, that's imho a quite good comparison. I can only use the NLA as example, but you can't watch it without at least a billing adress in Switzerland. That is pretty local indeed.

There is a difference, the european hockey leagues actually produce talent. This is no slight at the MSL, but just compare it to Sweden or Finland.

In a room alone with Ovechkin (or whatever top pro you'd like to pick) you or I would be the second best hockey player in the room, but in that case being "second" is essentially meaningless...that's an exaggeration to make the point of how I see European/Russian Leagues (because of the the huge financial differences with the NHL)
Whoever you consider the best russian outside the NHL. And no the gap won't be huge at all. If you exclude the KHL: The highest skilled player that didn't make the NHL because of physicality :laugh:

The budgets are usually just guesstimates, but they are about the same as in the AHL. NHL/AHL tweeners get paid better in europe than on a 2way deal.



Financially I'm not sure there's very much to capitalize on
For the NHL? Of course there is: There is about the same population as in NA you could gain as a market, and they have basically a monopoly on the entire star power of the hockey world. That's a product hat should practically sell itself. People will still mainly follow the local leagues (as it is in football btw), but everybody loves to see more or less best on best competition.

It doesnt work tough, for one because of timezones, but the NHL is also making it increasingly hard to actually follow the league outside NA (just look at the new website :rant:). I watch a few games trough gamecenter since a few years, but out of afternoon games (which are perfect as they start at 8pm here) you can't really watch them live so you rely on highlights. They could easily get more exposure if they want by improving these services, have some friendlies in preseason again, create a "supercup" (like SC, KHL, CHL winner), whatever.

But they don't. They rather fight some kind of turf war with the IOC, drastically speaking taking all that star power of this potential market hostage, to gain.. what? More exposure in NA? How do you do that wihtout one of the only possible channels outside those you already have?
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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My thinking the NHL has a right to do what they deem is in their best interest and my opinion on the Olympics (that it doesn't grow the game/matter in a significant way) isn't reliant on player desire to go, so you didn't prove me wrong about anything as far as I'm concerned

My apologies, I honestly was confused/didn't notice you were quoting someone else at the time I responded

Ahhh, attempting to change the goalposts now. I never questioned whether the NHL has the right to go or not. When I initially quoted you, your point had literally nothing to do with what you just described above. This is the post that I quoted:

I don't think the NHL players will care enough to make such a point (IMO the Olympics aren't that important to the vast majority of NHLers, regardless of their country of origin/nationality)

What I said pertained to that topic (player sentiments), and I successfully proved that your statement was inaccurate. You win some, you lose some. Time to move on. No need to disingenuously attempt to change what that particular discussion was about.
 

Nino33

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What I said pertained to that topic (player sentiments), and I successfully proved that your statement was inaccurate. You win some, you lose some. Time to move on. No need to disingenuously attempt to change what that particular discussion was about.
Don't things have to be settled soon? And no player revolt/protest is going on, so you didn't prove me wrong about anything; my opinion still stands that players don't care enough to make it a big deal

It's like those praising Ovechkin for "his stand" when he's not actually done anything, they're just words.....it doesn't matter to me (or prove anything to me) how many players say they'd like to play in the Olympics if they're just words


Your need to think you've "won" and I've "lost" is unnecessary IMO, I'm not looking to "win" anything (my opinion is not uninformed as you think, it's just different than yours)
 

JackSlater

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Don't things have to be settled soon? And no player revolt/protest is going on, so you didn't prove me wrong about anything; my opinion still stands that players don't care enough to make it a big deal

There is no need to change what the discussion was with respect to what I said. It's obvious that there will be no revolt, which happens to be what I posted near the beginning of this thread.

It's like those praising Ovechkin for "his stand" when he's not actually done anything, they're just words.....it doesn't matter to me (or prove anything to me) how many players say they'd like to play in the Olympics if they're just words

Your need to think you've "won" and I've "lost" is unnecessary IMO, I'm not looking to "win" anything (my opinion is not uninformed as you think, it's just different than yours)

Once again, this has nothing to do with what I said. I agree that Ovechkin's words are mostly empty. You were proven wrong because you denied multiple times that the players cared to "make a point" to go to the Olympics, and yet they have done so in the past as the driving force in NHL participation in the last three Olympic tournaments. You denied that they were the driving force, wrongly. You denied that players who don't play in the Olympics don't want participation, wrongly. You denied that Olympic participation was part of the CBA before 2006, wrongly. Opinions are one thing, but you have made claims that are factually wrong and which can easily be proven wrong through even a tiny bit of research.

You're right that it's not about winning or losing, but you are making factually wrong statements and then trying to change what the topic was to hide your own inaccuracies. It's not a crime to be wrong. Better to just learn from it than to try to hide it or build up a strawman.
 

Nino33

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You were proven wrong because you denied multiple times that the players cared to "make a point" to go to the Olympics, and yet they have done so in the past as the driving force in NHL participation in the last three Olympic tournaments. You denied that they were the driving force, wrongly. You denied that players who don't play in the Olympics don't want participation, wrongly. You denied that Olympic participation was part of the CBA before 2006, wrongly. Opinions are one thing, but you have made claims that are factually wrong and which can easily be proven wrong through even a tiny bit of research.
It was a contract negotiation, the fact that it was included and then wasn't didn't prove anything to me (how do you know the NHL didn't care/agreed with the players initially and then didn't on the last CBA and the players folded/didn't care either? you don't); I never heard it as an issue over the years and don't desire to spend my time looking at the CBA and old news reports and trying to guess what true motivations/tactics were in complex negotiations that I could care less about (I'm really not a fan of the business side of hockey/the NHL, at all!)...if that makes you "the winner" enjoy your victory



You're right that it's not about winning or losing
I know
 

sandysan

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Dec 7, 2011
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At this point it's up to the players to make a point that they want to go. That's about the only way it happens

breach or lump it. The schedule ( and whether there is a stoppage) is entirely within the owners hands, its not up to the players even if they Really really really really really want to go.

If the players want to negotiate a stoppage to play, what will they give the owners for this concession ? You think the players take an across the board salary cut to " do what they want" ? I sure as heck don't.

The league ( and by extension the owners) will make this decision because they have the talent under contract. what the players " want" is moot.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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It was a contract negotiation, the fact that it was included and then wasn't didn't prove anything to me (how do you know the NHL didn't care/agreed with the players initially and then didn't on the last CBA and the players folded/didn't care either? you don't); I never heard it as an issue over the years and don't desire to spend my time looking at the CBA and old news reports and trying to guess what true motivations/tactics were in complex negotiations that I could care less about (I'm really not a fan of the business side of hockey/the NHL, at all!)...if that makes you "the winner" enjoy your victory

I know

We "know" because the media has reported on this topic for over a decade, and both sides have been pretty open. The NHL was open about not really wanting to go to the 2006 and 2014 Olympics, while wanting to go in 2010, and the players position of wanting to go to each tournament was widely reported as well. If you don't care to understand what has already happened, that is perfectly fine. I suppose you are right that people have the right to be ignorant to common knowledge. Don't expect your theories to be taken seriously though when we already have information from sources close to the situation that prove that those theories are wrong.

As far as the rest of this thread, Rene Fasel has (much to my surprise) set himself up for positive press in Canada. If the NHL pulls out of the Olympics with the insurance issue essentially removed, we may see Fasel getting positive sentiments from the Canadian public for possibly the first time ever. Strange world to consider.
 
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paul-laus

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Jun 20, 2007
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The IOC's decisions are only for the benefit of the IOC & the argument about skipping South Korea while wanting to be in China is just pure speculation (a strawman argument so the NHL can be bashed)



It seems to me that you've taken on quite the biased stance my friend. You go on and on about how the IOC is looking only to benefit itself by having NHL players attend as the flagship sport of the games but yet being insistent on calling all the shots and being inflexible when budging on issues important to the NHL.

And the NHL is doing the exact same thing when they decide that the 2018 games don't work for them in terms of exposure but we'll likely be interested when it comes to the next games in 2022 because China is market where we can grow the game similar to how the NBA has. You can make it seem as though this is mere speculation with no legs but every pundit, analyst, or person close to the league knows that this is a very real likelihood.....
 

Nino33

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Jul 5, 2015
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Is English not you're first language?

Seems to me European/Russian hockey Leagues are essentially the same as NASL/MSL soccer.
Yes, English is my first language (and it's "your" not "you're")

And I said "European/Russian hockey Leagues are essentially the same as NASL/MSL soccer" which is comparing European/Russian hockey Leagues (to the NHL) with the NASL/MSL (with elite European Elite Soccer Leagues) - just like the NASL/MSL is irrelevant to elite European soccer Leagues, the elite European/Russian hockey Leagues are irrelevant to the NHL


You turned that into "compared NASL and MLS" (comparing the two NA soccer leagues) & "and then doubled down comparing NLA and KHL" (comparing the NLA and KHL).....maybe your lack of English understanding is why you did this, and you didn't mean to, but it is what you did/what your words meant

I suspect you did this because English is not your first language? I've seen you on multiple occasions miss the point of other posters (like you did with me in this case), and attributed it to lack of English understanding
 

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