Injury Report: Trouba - returned from concussion 03/31

[Aavco Cup]

I don't assume that about Wheeler. He hasn't done anything to suggest what his intentions are, really.

I don't know about Trouba, but he's the only one of those named who held out and refused to play while demanding a trade. That doesn't suggest to me that he will sign for cheap like the others you listed.

I'm pretty sure every player who signed thought it was a fair deal at the time. The fact that the deals may now appear to be bargains is due to how young they were when those deals were signed and their improved play.

 

[ERYX]

I'm pretty sure every player who signed thought it was a fair deal at the time. The fact that the deals may now appear to be bargains is due to how young they were when those deals were signed and their improved play.

I think the deals are fair. Dollar value isn't the only consideration of fairness. I suspect that those players also were prepared to leave a little money on the table because they enjoy playing here and they like what Chevy is building and want to be a part of it.

But I never suggested that those deals weren't fair, or even that Trouba necessarily wants an unfair (to the team) deal. I'm just saying that a guy who demands a trade and then refuses to play while under contract (which, I suggest, was likely also seen to be "a fair deal at the time"), doesn't impress me and such behaviour leads me to believe that a fair deal cannot be had for whatever reason. I hope I'm proven wrong.

Bottom line I don't want the Jets overpaying for anyone, but especially not for a selfish me-first type of guy who's willing to leave his team mates swinging in the wind purely out of his own self interest.

 

[surixon]

I think the deals are fair. Dollar value isn't the only consideration of fairness. I suspect that those players also were prepared to leave a little money on the table because they enjoy playing here and they like what Chevy is building and want to be a part of it.

But I never suggested that those deals weren't fair, or even that Trouba necessarily wants an unfair (to the team) deal. I'm just saying that a guy who demands a trade and then refuses to play while under contract (which, I suggest, was likely also seen to be "a fair deal at the time"), doesn't impress me and such behaviour leads me to believe that a fair deal cannot be had for whatever reason. I hope I'm proven wrong.

Bottom line I don't want the Jets overpaying for anyone, but especially not for a selfish me-first type of guy who's willing to leave his team mates swinging in the wind purely out of his own self interest.

Maybe I'm missing something in your post, but when did Trouba partake in the behaviour that your describing?

When he held out and refused to play he wasn't under contract. You may not have liked what he did and you wouldn't be alone but he didn't violate any contractual agreement and was well within his rights to hold out for more money or for in his case a trade out of town.

Once he signed his deal he immediately showed up in the city and as he stated has honored it without creating any outside distractions.

 

[ERYX]

My mistake, I thought he was under contract at the time.

 

[TheJadePipe]

The fan that doesn't want his team handcuffed/hobbled by a bad overly expensive contract that means we can't afford to sign other important pieces.



Yup, I call sitting out and abandoning his teammates for the first chunk of last season very much a "me first" and primma donna attitude. I just find it incredible and amazing that people on this forum bash Buff nonstop for his supposedly "selfish" attitude yet give Trouba a free pass for his refusal to play. Buff has never staged a sit-out. Even back when under Noel and Maurice's early days, he played wing when he wanted to play D. That's a bigger difference than playing left vs. right, but he did it without complaint and didn't walk out on his teammates.



First of all, that's a straw man argument to say that I said "Trouba ... no thanks", what I said was "Trouba for an overpayment ... no thanks".

And secondly, I personally see Trouba as TOTALLY different than other players we currently have. None of our recent signings in Scheifele, Little, or Ehlers demanded a trade and sat out. To the contrary, all three took home town discounts.

That said it's probably moot, because as Mortimer Snerd pointed out, there's actually been little indication that it was over $ amount that Trouba sat out. He just wants out of Winnipeg. So if that's the case he won't sign here even if we offered him $14 million per season. He's a good player, so I'd like to have him, but if we can trade him for equal value assets who have better team-first attitude, I'll take that 10/10 over the real selfish player on our roster.

He sat out because he wanted to play right side and maximize his value. He didn’t want left side which downgraded his value. Plain and simple, it was business. $$$ had not come out of his mouth for reason to sit.... that is only you speculating. If I’m a young boxer trying to get a title fight for money and my coach is forcing me to fight southpaw where I know I’m not as good, and it may cost me a loss and $$$, I’m sitting too. Like I said with EVERY athlete, money comes first

 

[Adam da bomb]

He sat out because he wanted to play right side and maximize his value. He didn’t want left side which downgraded his value. Plain and simple, it was business. $$$ had not come out of his mouth for reason to sit.... that is only you speculating. If I’m a young boxer trying to get a title fight for money and my coach is forcing me to fight southpaw where I know I’m not as good, and it may cost me a loss and $$$, I’m sitting too. Like I said with EVERY athlete, money comes first

Not true Chef could have got more he wants to win. For some winning is more important.

 

[TheJadePipe]

Not true Chef could have got more he wants to win. For some winning is more important.

So if I thought Chef wasn’t as good as you think he is, maybe I think he got more than fair value and didn’t leave a dime on the table. All contracts are signed on perceived value. Buff took us to the cleaner and was not a team player from my POV, his play doesn’t warrant 7.5

 

[Adam da bomb]

So if I thought Chef wasn’t as good as you think he is, maybe I think he got more than fair value and didn’t leave a dime on the table. All contracts are signed on perceived value. Buff took us to the cleaner and was not a team player from my POV, his play doesn’t warrant 7.5

Yep but stats dictate reasonable amount. If you ask for less than contemporary or more. Position also matters first vs 4th. Anyway does it matter what we think you said for every athlete money comes first and in their heads and negotiation we are not privy too they can accept less money in order so that the team can win. Prioritize winning. Also if you read my previous posts I always argue that Buff is overpaid. Not really important but a side note.

 

[TheJadePipe]

Yep but stats dictate reasonable amount. If you ask for less than contemporary or more. Position also matters first vs 4th. Anyway does it matter what we think you said for every athlete money comes first and in their heads and negotiation we are not privy too they can accept less money in order so that the team can win. Prioritize winning. Also if you read my previous posts I always argue that Buff is overpaid. Not really important but a side note.

Let’s be clear... Chefs contract is a steal now... but when he signed, his performance to date was on par with his deal. Same as Ehlers.... his numbers and performance I think were fair at the time and neither player took a discount to win. We signed them early on their upswing trajectories... good job Chevy. Had they both topped out after signing... contract doesn’t look as good and no way would you be saying they took a discount to win. Terrible arguement is my point. If Chef was offered 10mil to play in Buffalo today, he would be gone. You can say, I am speculating and am not privy to his thoughts, on the reverse side I would be saying you would have to be the most Naive person on the planet to think otherwise and Chef would have to be the dumbest. Maybe when they are in thier twighlight years and made thier 100 million, they may value the trophy a little more and take a discount... not the Young guns

 

[Aavco Cup]

Let’s be clear... Chefs contract is a steal now... but when he signed, his performance to date was on par with his deal. Same as Ehlers.... his numbers and performance I think were fair at the time and neither player took a discount to win. We signed them early on their upswing trajectories... good job Chevy. Had they both topped out after signing... contract doesn’t look as good and no way would you be saying they took a discount to win. Terrible arguement is my point. If Chef was offered 10mil to play in Buffalo today, he would be gone. You can say, I am speculating and am not privy to his thoughts, on the reverse side I would be saying you would have to be the most Naive person on the planet to think otherwise and Chef would have to be the dumbest. Maybe when they are in thier twighlight years and made thier 100 million, they may value the trophy a little more and take a discount... not the Young guns

The big difference with Scheifele was he said he wanted to get his deal done early and he was always after an 8 year deal. He likes being a Jet.

 

[TheJadePipe]

The big difference with Scheifele was he said he wanted to get his deal done early and he was always after an 8 year deal. He likes being a Jet.

Let’s get this done early and pay me 48million now I wanna be rich

 

[TheJadePipe]

Let’s get this done early and pay me 48million now I wanna be rich

I don’t recall Trouba ever saying he didn’t want to be a Jet, just that he wanted ice time on the right side so he can perform at a higher level ... this results in higher $ .... no different than what Chef wanted

 

[Adam da bomb]

Let’s be clear... Chefs contract is a steal now... but when he signed, his performance to date was on par with his deal. Same as Ehlers.... his numbers and performance I think were fair at the time and neither player took a discount to win. We signed them early on their upswing trajectories... good job Chevy. Had they both topped out after signing... contract doesn’t look as good and no way would you be saying they took a discount to win. Terrible arguement is my point. If Chef was offered 10mil to play in Buffalo today, he would be gone. You can say, I am speculating and am not privy to his thoughts, on the reverse side I would be saying you would have to be the most Naive person on the planet to think otherwise and Chef would have to be the dumbest. Maybe when they are in thier twighlight years and made thier 100 million, they may value the trophy a little more and take a discount... not the Young guns

I think your wrong. I think players will take 6 mil instead of 7 for a number of factors. Winning a sc is just one of them. I also think lifestyle quality of schools for their kids respect of organization all play a role. You are being too simplistic. After all I don't think everyone is as masterialistic. I think some ppl know what they will need to be happy the rest of their lives make sure they get that but don't need 12 cars.

 

[Bob E]

I think your wrong. I think players will take 6 mil instead of 7 for a number of factors. Winning a sc is just one of them. I also think lifestyle quality of schools for their kids respect of organization all play a role. You are being too simplistic. After all I don't think everyone is as masterialistic. I think some ppl know what they will need to be happy the rest of their lives make sure they get that but don't need 12 cars.

I need 12 cars.

 

[TorJet]

I think your wrong. I think players will take 6 mil instead of 7 for a number of factors. Winning a sc is just one of them. I also think lifestyle quality of schools for their kids respect of organization all play a role. You are being too simplistic. After all I don't think everyone is as masterialistic. I think some ppl know what they will need to be happy the rest of their lives make sure they get that but don't need 12 cars.

It’s so easy to dismiss a million dollars as no big thing or because nobody needs “12 cars”.

All of these guys are one injury away from this being their final contract. Two subpar seasons from being out of the NHL. The number of professional athletes that go broke after their careers is startling.

Very few get high-paying front-office, media or agent jobs post-career. This is essentially the summation of their paydays for life. Furthermore, they’re getting essentially a lifetime of work’s worth of money via lump sum, which is incredibly disadvantageous for tax reasons - 48%+ of their contract is paid the government. 10% to their agent. Often some goes to family members. Not to say they aren’t making lots of money but don’t dismiss the fact that your last big paycheque at 32 means 55 years of “pseudo-retirement”. Many Canadians worry about their retirement when they retire at 65, let alone 32...

As we learn more about the impact of head injuries and painkillers, it’s even more clear why the adjustment into post-career life is difficult for many players and why long-term financial security ought to be a significant issue from day 1 of an NHL career.

There are plenty of business owners, lawyers, surgeons etc. in Winnipeg who earn 7 figure incomes, and earn them for 20-30+ years and also earn them corporately and therefore pay significantly less income taxes - we don’t point at this segment of society and demand they take a hometown discount. They’re paid based on the value they provide to society - I.e. they’re selling a service people are willing to fork over money for.

The reason the Jets earn significant salaries is because we pay for tickets, watch them on tv, buy merchandise and eat and drink at the arenas. We don’t gripe about George Clooney’s pay when we got to the movie theatre - but it’s the same business. Entertainment packaged and sold to consumers.

As a Jets fan I selfishly hope that we get great, team-friendly contracts for our key assets. That said, I don’t begrudge players wanting to maximize their earnings in what is 100% a business, no matter how emotionally involved we as consumers are. Just don’t fall into the trap of suggesting others should forgo money for your selfish interests.

 

[TheJadePipe]

I think your wrong. I think players will take 6 mil instead of 7 for a number of factors. Winning a sc is just one of them. I also think lifestyle quality of schools for their kids respect of organization all play a role. You are being too simplistic. After all I don't think everyone is as masterialistic. I think some ppl know what they will need to be happy the rest of their lives make sure they get that but don't need 12 cars.

I think winning a SC is more materialistic than the extra million. I think these athletes whom are fathers/husbands etc will want the extra $ not only to ensure thier future lifestyle but to guarantee thier kids and thier kids are set up for generations. I think you are looking at it from an athletic achievement POV and I am looking at it through a family mans POV.
I also don’t believe using kids Schools and communities is a positive factor when they sign in Peg city. As much as I love this city, statistically we have a high crime rate, and in education, we are nowhere near the top compared to othe NHL cities, I recall reading Wpg has some of the lowest grade averages in Canada and we rank low in many measured academic success.

 

[Whileee]

I don’t recall Trouba ever saying he didn’t want to be a Jet, just that he wanted ice time on the right side so he can perform at a higher level ... this results in higher $ .... no different than what Chef wanted

Trouba didn't want to come back to the Jets. That seems clear to me. The RD issue seemed like a pretty transparent issue, especially when he said he was never going to stay out beyond end November.

The big question is whether he's changed his perspective about playing in Winnipeg. If not, he'll get moved by Chevy, and I'd guess he'll fetch a big return. Chevy has a lot of assets to play with, so I think he would be able to make the moves necessary to fill Trouba's role. He will be a less rare commodity as he moves toward his 3rd and big contract. The Jets wouldn't have to consider only equivalent young D, though they might actually consider going for a younger D with Myers and Poolman playing at a pretty high level now.

 

[Whileee]

I think winning a SC is more materialistic than the extra million. I think these athletes whom are fathers/husbands etc will want the extra $ not only to ensure thier future lifestyle but to guarantee thier kids and thier kids are set up for generations. I think you are looking at it from an athletic achievement POV and I am looking at it through a family mans POV.
I also don’t believe using kids Schools and communities is a positive factor when they sign in Peg city. As much as I love this city, statistically we have a high crime rate, and in education, we are nowhere near the top compared to othe NHL cities, I recall reading Wpg has some of the lowest grade averages in Canada and we rank low in many measured academic success.

I've never even thought about the issue of how crime would affect me and my family in Winnipeg. Crime is much worse in almost any US market.

Average educational attainment is irrelevant to a rich hockey player. There are outstanding schools in high income areas, and some top end private schools.

Manitoba produces more than it's fair share of Rhodes Scholars.

 

[Calendal]

Very few get high-paying front-office, media or agent jobs post-career. This is essentially the summation of their paydays for life. Furthermore, they’re getting essentially a lifetime of work’s worth of money via lump sum, which is incredibly disadvantageous for tax reasons - 48%+ of their contract is paid the government. 10% to their agent. Often some goes to family members. Not to say they aren’t making lots of money but don’t dismiss the fact that your last big paycheque at 32 means 55 years of “pseudo-retirement”. Many Canadians worry about their retirement when they retire at 65, let alone 32...

In all fairness I'm not familiar with the Canadian taxation system. Still, getting an 8x8 deal would cap out one's tax % in Finland. Even if that sum was split over 300 years the player could pay about 10% less taxes than all that money taken in one year (at 84k€ per year the marginal tax hits about the maximum of 57.1%). Granted, in the US highest marginal tax rate for a married player would only be reached around $600,000 or so, but even 24M contract is basically in the range where the tax rate differences really would not be that big even if spread over 40 years.

NHL does have a pension plan but I've not dug into that very deeply.

According to my knowledge agents are taking between 3% and 6%, pre-tax.

There's of course also Escrow.

___

Anyway, I think we've gone quite far off the injury topic here. I'm fairly sure there's 100s of posts debating this same topic in other threads, with much better information than mine.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I think winning a SC is more materialistic than the extra million. I think these athletes whom are fathers/husbands etc will want the extra $ not only to ensure thier future lifestyle but to guarantee thier kids and thier kids are set up for generations. I think you are looking at it from an athletic achievement POV and I am looking at it through a family mans POV.
I also don’t believe using kids Schools and communities is a positive factor when they sign in Peg city. As much as I love this city, statistically we have a high crime rate, and in education, we are nowhere near the top compared to othe NHL cities, I recall reading Wpg has some of the lowest grade averages in Canada and we rank low in many measured academic success.

No I'm not vouching for our schools I am saying there are other factors. Also not all of them have families yet and I seriously doubt some 18 year old is planning for their grandchild's future.

 

[TheJadePipe]

I've never even thought about the issue of how crime would affect me and my family in Winnipeg. Crime is much worse in almost any US market.

Average educational attainment is irrelevant to a rich hockey player. There are outstanding schools in high income areas, and some top end private schools.

Manitoba produces more than it's fair share of Rhodes Scholars.

Maybe cause you are not offered a choice of 30 cities?

No I'm not vouching for our schools I am saying there are other factors. Also not all of them have families yet and I seriously doubt some 18 year old is planning for their grandchild's future.

An 18 year old is listening to his parents, whom should guide them to the biggest $ because they haven’t made any yet

Trouba didn't want to come back to the Jets. That seems clear to me. The RD issue seemed like a pretty transparent issue, especially when he said he was never going to stay out beyond end November.

The big question is whether he's changed his perspective about playing in Winnipeg. If not, he'll get moved by Chevy, and I'd guess he'll fetch a big return. Chevy has a lot of assets to play with, so I think he would be able to make the moves necessary to fill Trouba's role. He will be a less rare commodity as he moves toward his 3rd and big contract. The Jets wouldn't have to consider only equivalent young D, though they might actually consider going for a younger D with Myers and Poolman playing at a pretty high level now.

Trouba not wanting to be a Jet is not clear to me.... did you talk to him?

 

[Adam da bomb]

An 18 year old is listening to his parents, whom should guide them to the biggest $ because they haven’t made any yet

I definitely didn't listen to my parents when I was 18 did you?

 

[LucianoBorsato]

Seems to be getting a bit off topic in here...

 

[Aavco Cup]

In all fairness I'm not familiar with the Canadian taxation system. Still, getting an 8x8 deal would cap out one's tax % in Finland. Even if that sum was split over 300 years the player could pay about 10% less taxes than all that money taken in one year (at 84k€ per year the marginal tax hits about the maximum of 57.1%). Granted, in the US highest marginal tax rate for a married player would only be reached around $600,000 or so, but even 24M contract is basically in the range where the tax rate differences really would not be that big even if spread over 40 years.

NHL does have a pension plan but I've not dug into that very deeply.

According to my knowledge agents are taking between 3% and 6%, pre-tax.

There's of course also Escrow.

___

Anyway, I think we've gone quite far off the injury topic here. I'm fairly sure there's 100s of posts debating this same topic in other threads, with much better information than mine.

European players who play in Canada are able to defer a large portion income so they can "manage" their tax bill. They don't have that option in the USA. This only applies to players who don't reside permanently in North America.

Trouba's tax bill woukd benefit greatly from a trade to one of the states with no income tax, like Florida or Tennessee. The Trump tax cuts also help players south of the border

 

[GNP]

European players who play in Canada are able to defer a large portion income so they can "manage" their tax bill. They don't have that option in the USA. This only applies to players who don't reside permanently in North America.

Trouba's tax bill woukd benefit greatly from a trade to one of the states with no income tax, like Florida or Tennessee. The Trump tax cuts also help players south of the border

_______________________________________________________

From past readings I believe the 5 states in the USA with no tax are - Florida, Texas, Nevada, Wyoming and Alaska. This is why many high paid athletes live in Florida. Tiger Woods the golfer is one of them, that moved to Florida from California.

There are also a couple of cusp states with very low state tax-- Tennessee is one of them I believe, and there are a couple of others. ( maybe 2-3 more)