Trevor Daley... 3 years $3.17M a year

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,200
14,889
crease
Yeah honesty from management sucks.

Oh boy. If you can't see the difference between being accountable for your own failures versus shrugging your shoulders asking one to lower expectations... I don't know what to tell you.
 

Ezekial

Cheap Pizza, Bad Hockey
Sponsor
Nov 22, 2015
22,380
14,884
Chicago
You understand the general statement is rather for us as fans to lower our expectations rather than Ken Holland make any kind of effort to make the team a cup contender again, right? I am not expecting a cup every season (certainly not with this team), but I am expecting the team's management to make moves that would facilitate another championship.

His statement wasn't about the team though, it was about the state of the league. He wasn't saying, you guys shouldn't expect the wings to win a cup any time soon, maybe even ever again. He's talking about parity.

If you continue onto his don't expect cups line he says, "last night we watched teams who haven't won a series in 20 years, it's a hard league."
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
Yeah honesty from management sucks.

'Its Harvard, you shouldn't expect A's!'

That's what he is saying. That is the mantra of every C student, stoner, and slacker ever. 'Well if you'd only lower your exception of me you'd be happier'. It's not honesty, its setting the bar low enough that when they just miss it they can still claim success.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,735
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Sweden
'Its Harvard, you shouldn't expect A's!'

That's what he is saying. That is the mantra of every C student, stoner, and slacker ever. 'Well if you'd only lower your exception of me you'd be happier'. It's not honesty, its setting the bar low enough that when they just miss it they can still claim success.
Agree to disagree. I think it's more like saying "It's Harvard, if you expect to always be the best student in the class you're in the wrong school. "

Any GM that promises cups in this league is straight up lying. Fans who expect cups are setting themselves up for disappointment with unrealistic expectations. Even pre-cap I didn't expect cups. I expected them to contend, but the Stanley Cup is as difficult as it gets to win. This isn't the NBA or NFL.
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
I don't expect cups. I doubt any expects cups.

I expect management to do what they can to compete for one, legitimately. Not to ice a team designed only for playoffs with that being the goal year after year never making a serious run at the cup.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
Agree to disagree. I think it's more like saying "It's Harvard, if you expect to always be the best student in the class you're in the wrong school. "

Any GM that promises cups in this league is straight up lying. Fans who expect cups are setting themselves up for disappointment with unrealistic expectations. Even pre-cap I didn't expect cups. I expected them to contend, but the Stanley Cup is as difficult as it gets to win. This isn't the NBA or NFL.

You are reducing it to a year-in year-out basis (which no fan should realistically expect their team to win any and every year), when the entire point is building a team that is meant to contend for cups. The only reason to talk about how hard it is to win cups is to reduce the expectations for him as a GM to make a championship happen.

If it is hard, then find a new role on the team. Let someone who places high expectations of himself do the job.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
Agree to disagree. I think it's more like saying "It's Harvard, if you expect to always be the best student in the class you're in the wrong school. "

Any GM that promises cups in this league is straight up lying. Fans who expect cups are setting themselves up for disappointment with unrealistic expectations. Even pre-cap I didn't expect cups. I expected them to contend, but the Stanley Cup is as difficult as it gets to win. This isn't the NBA or NFL.

Maybe not the best student, but to at least try to be the best. The way Holland is talking being able to say you were close to getting in is good enough. He is using 'well A's are hard' (IE its hard to contend for a cup) to be able to pass off his mediocrity.
 

lomekian

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
1,871
891
London
Re Holland's pronouncements, while it may not sit comfortably with a fan base used to excellence and generation of winning, are entirely accurate.

The NHL is a parity league more than almost any other at this stage. While the recent successes of Chicago and Pittsburgh suggest that it is possible to be dominant, what is interesting is how much onus there is now on yearly minor tweaks to maximse a roster with excellent core pieces. Teams can easily go from Cup Finalist to missing the playoffs with largely the same rosters. Stacked teams like the Caps can continually flounder in the playoffs to inferior opponents.

KH is primarily drawing comparison to days gone by, where it was possible to have a stacked team for years, a la Detroit in the 90s and start of the 2000s and know that barring injuries a great roster now would likely mean a great roster going forward.

Perhaps its also a comparison to other global sports leagues which don't run on franchise model, and result in increasing returns to the more successful, facilitating dominance.

Either way, while a more erudite figure would likely put it in a more positive and appealing fashion, he's reasonably accurate in his assessment. The idea that he is setting mediocrity as a benchmark a case of adding 2 and 2, and discovering you have 7. The Wings now are playoff outsiders. With Z battling father time and Kronwall in a tailspin, as well as an uneven and overpriced roster constructed in the worthy but optimistic pursuit of playoff continuity during another rebuild, it is unlikely that this will change dramatically over the next three years at least.

From where we are now, making the playoffs is an improvement, and Holland's comments are, as ever, about trying to make what is plausibly (but not necessarily probably) achievable appear an attractive proposition. From where we are, making the playoffs would be a pleasant surprise. There's absolutely no merit in him talking about goals significantly higher than that at present, because it is basically unrealistic.

None of this is to say that the Wings don't need to refresh and update the front office and their operational model in the short to medium term. Doesn't seem a lot of point doing so with a year left on so many staff contracts. But, barring an unexpected upturn, I'll be disappointed if we don't see significant changes in 11-12 months.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,735
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Sweden
Maybe not the best student, but to at least try to be the best. The way Holland is talking being able to say you were close to getting in is good enough. He is using 'well A's are hard' (IE its hard to contend for a cup) to be able to pass off his mediocrity.
He's also said his goal is to win a Stanley Cup and talked about wanting to build an elite core through the draft, but those comments get conveniently ignored.

Holland was directly asked about what to say to fans who "expect cups". He, very truthfully, answered you shouldn't expect cups in this league. It's not like he was asked about how he feels about a 1st round exit and said "we're happy, don't expect anything more". People are very much using that quote without the context of the actual question. Same thing with the "less is more" quote really.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
14,682
You are reducing it to a year-in year-out basis (which no fan should realistically expect their team to win any and every year), when the entire point is building a team that is meant to contend for cups. The only reason to talk about how hard it is to win cups is to reduce the expectations for him as a GM to make a championship happen.

If it is hard, then find a new role on the team. Let someone who places high expectations of himself do the job.

I mean his job is harder than it used to be. But no fans want to hear that. We weren't complaining about parity in the league when we went to back to back Cups in 08 and 09. And there was considerably more parity at that point relative to things in the pre-cap world.

But like you said, If you don't like the landscape of the league then go sit in the front office with Jimmy D. I'm sure others are chomping at the bit to try and run a team in this "parity-crazed" league without making excuses about it.
 
Last edited:

Mijatovic

Registered User
Jan 23, 2014
2,102
173
Western Australia
Hard to win cups is fair. Building a bottom 5 team with the highest salary cap and handcuffed by an incredible number of bad contracts is like the opposite of what you should be doing to build towards a cup though.Holkand is a ****ing idiot and I don't care that he's done the job for 25+ years. It's easy to be king when you can spend endless amounts of cash.
 

vladdy16

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
2,551
375
Is this the Trevor Daley thread?

Anyways, I guess it's funny to see the crowd that's been begging for a tank accusing Holland of lacking competitive spirit.

The Red Wings have sucked since 2010, the coach and GM have 1 year remaining on their deals. Buck up and ride the thing out.
 

theD86

Winging it
Jun 23, 2007
787
2
Columbus, Ohio
I get the feeling the winds of change are coming. Chris Illitch said he has faith in Holland. He never said he was my guy. He never talked bout a contract extinsion.
His family just built a $3 billiom arena. No way they want it to be half empty.
 

njx9

Registered User
Feb 1, 2016
2,161
340
Anyways, I guess it's funny to see the crowd that's been begging for a tank accusing Holland of lacking competitive spirit.

That's a pretty dishonest and intentional misrepresentation of basically every point of view you disagree with. I guess it's impossible to want a GM who wants to compete for cups, and simultaneously believe that tanking is the best way to get the franchise there. I can't wait to see what form the ******** equivocation takes this time.

His family just built a $3 billiom arena. No way they want it to be half empty.

If the team is truly only in it for money, one off ticket revenues are peanuts in comparison to other revenue streams, and the Illitches would have no reason, whatsoever, to care if people quit showing up. They'd also presumably want Holland to stop pissing away millions on mediocre-at-best players.
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
22,548
925
Auburn Hills
I get the feeling the winds of change are coming. Chris Illitch said he has faith in Holland. He never said he was my guy. He never talked bout a contract extinsion.
His family just built a $3 billiom arena. No way they want it to be half empty.

The city is paying for most of it, but I get what you're saying. I just don't have the same faith in the Ilitch Family running these teams like I used to. Both the Tigers and Wings look completely inept and the message from the owners seem to be less about appeasing the fans and more about doing what they feel is right towards their GM buddies.
 

vladdy16

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
2,551
375
That's a pretty dishonest and intentional misrepresentation of basically every point of view you disagree with. I guess it's impossible to want a GM who wants to compete for cups, and simultaneously believe that tanking is the best way to get the franchise there. I can't wait to see what form the ******** equivocation takes this time.

I guess it's impossible to see a light hearted comment for what it is. You're impression of my post understimates my willingness to engage in, or I'd say history of attempts to extract, a point by point discussion regarding the same tired argument about the infallibility of aggressive rebuilds that crops up in every single thread on this board. I am prepared to appeal to the use of competitive spirit as an argument in an equivocal and consistent fashion.
 

njx9

Registered User
Feb 1, 2016
2,161
340
I guess it's impossible to see a light hearted comment for what it is. You're appeal to equivocation understimates my willingness to engage in, or I'd say history of attempts to extract, a point by point discussion regarding the same tired argument about the infallibility of aggressive rebuilds that crops up in every single thread on this board.

It's hardly light-hearted when you're going after everyone for being hypocrites. Unless you mean light-hearted in a 'look at what all these idiots who disagree with me think, am I right guys?!' way.

I'd suggest using a dictionary before a thesaurus, next time, though. Not once did I suggest you have that discussion - only that you stop the deliberate dishonesty.
 

vladdy16

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
2,551
375
It's hardly light-hearted when you're going after everyone for being hypocrites. Unless you mean light-hearted in a 'look at what all these idiots who disagree with me think, am I right guys?!' way.

I'd suggest using a dictionary before a thesaurus, next time, though. Not once did I suggest you have that discussion - only that you stop the deliberate dishonesty.

Haha, are you sure I'm the one having a hard time being light hearted here?

In my world, insinuating something as seriously negative as 'look at what all these idiots who disagree with me think' while in reality harboring a moderate and modest opinion that encourages the validity of both ends of the spectrum, is the definition of light hearted.

Beyond that, as you can see by the whole of my initial post that you responded to, my intention was to point out that despite where you fall on the spectrum of that particular, tired discussion, it is possible to compartmentalize and enjoy focusing on other aspects of the 2017-18 season.

If at this point you can't see the difference between light hearted hyperbole that points to a relevant discussion that could be had, and "deliberate dishonesty", I'm not sure what to tell you about the definition of those words.

I appreciate your intention to dissuade the use of hyperbole and grandstanding on this board, but I can assure you that I hold my own opinions in the lowest esteem and truly value when a poster such as Heaton takes the time to give me a point by point response of how they are seeing things.
 

Hatter of the Beach

I’m the real hero
Jun 26, 2017
3,197
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Parkland Estates, Florida
While not as bad contract wise as the other monstrosities on this roster, I can’t be the only one concerned we signed him for two more years after this one...

Dude is superfluous at best. I’m sure some of it has to do with Blash’s system but, as of right now, he seems no better than any of the young guys we could bring up who make 800k
 

Reddwit

Registered User
Feb 4, 2016
7,696
3,418
I actually don’t mind Daley or his type of addition. Admittedly, I haven’t liked Daley since his days in Dallas, so my expectations were low, but he’s good enough and he’s tradeable. He can do a little bit of everything, is relatively cheap, and is short-term. He’s the type of guy someone always wants to take a chance on. We could’ve gotten Pittsburg Daley. We didn’t. But we still got a guy who could be moved for a late 2nd rounder if need be. That’s a win in my book.
 

BinCookin

Registered User
Feb 15, 2012
6,160
1,377
London, ON
....I can’t be the only one concerned we signed him for two more years after this one...

....he seems no better than any of the young guys we could bring up who make 800k

Welcome to our entire defensive roster once we trade Green in a few months. We are going to need a veteran for 1-2 years while Kronwall and E retire very soon. Don't worry, we will have all new crappy rookies on our D gettingg paid pennies in no time! (hopefully some will be better than expected)

I actually don’t mind Daley or his type of addition. Admittedly, I haven’t liked Daley since his days in Dallas, so my expectations were low, but he’s good enough and he’s tradeable. He can do a little bit of everything, is relatively cheap, and is short-term. He’s the type of guy someone always wants to take a chance on. We could’ve gotten Pittsburg Daley. We didn’t. But we still got a guy who could be moved for a late 2nd rounder if need be. That’s a win in my book.

3Mil is pretty cheap for an acceptable top 4 D. Worst case hes tradable, best case he helps teach Hronek/Cholowski some things.
 
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obey86

Registered User
Jun 9, 2009
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While not as bad contract wise as the other monstrosities on this roster, I can’t be the only one concerned we signed him for two more years after this one...

Dude is superfluous at best. I’m sure some of it has to do with Blash’s system but, as of right now, he seems no better than any of the young guys we could bring up who make 800k

concerned for what reason? wings won't be competing for any cups over the next two years....who cares if he's on the roster or not?
 

Redder Winger

Registered User
May 4, 2017
3,700
730
Welcome to our entire defensive roster once we trade Green in a few months. We are going to need a veteran for 1-2 years while Kronwall and E retire very soon. Don't worry, we will have all new crappy rookies on our D gettingg paid pennies in no time! (hopefully some will be better than expected)



3Mil is pretty cheap for an acceptable top 4 D. Worst case hes tradable, best case he helps teach Hronek/Cholowski some things.

Trevor Daley is not a guy I want teaching our young defense.

So overrated.
 

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