Treliving

[Shawnofthedeadz]

GG is not the problem. Top management crony hires is the cancer here. GG is just a sniffle in the sickness. Its starts with Burke at the top. It all needs to be cleansed. They may remove GG but until they clean house and make a real commitment to winning over selling Jerseys we will continue to be the same team as the last decade has been, a constant tease of Almost Famous. This team is so much like the old Leaf team its not funny. Heart is the issue as well. Johnny is an albatross. Regardless of whether he was a cheap pick up, guys like him are always supporting cast. He is not a playoff 2 way guy and that is not his fault. He is tougher this year but will never be what we need unless he starts some serious juicing. This team has realistically been out of the hunt for 2 months. Until management gets enough fan "Heat" nothing will change. May I suggest a ticket boycott. Maybe the season ticket holder can hire some high school kids to protest.

I don't think management has been much of a problem. People give Burke too much credit, I really do think his role is far more oversight than actually management. It's hard to assess his performance to date.

If we get more specific in terms of team management, I think Tre has done a decent job though not a great one. It is easy now to bash the assets on this team, but let us not forget how what Tre did up to the start of the season had us all hyped about this team and its potential. Experts and fans alike thought we had (and still have) all the pieces to be a real contender. In my opinion, we still do. For assets, his only mistake was probably keeping Ferland which should have been a sell high candidate that could have benefited the team in the long run and when we were floundering to shake things up to get the players going. Where I think Tre has done a bad job is in assessing player staff. I was not a fan of GG at the end of last season but I completely understand giving him a chance to show his stuff and turn it around, one season is not enough time. However, time and time again GG has continued to show he is not competent enough to manage hockey at the NHL level. In an era where players can no longer carry teams (only need to look up north to McDavid to see further evidence of this [though not saying Tod is a bad coach]), putting the right players on the ice at the right time is extraordinarily important. Glen does not seem to understand how to do this with this team. He also does not seem to have the ability to tell during the game which players are struggling and which are surging and using these to his advantage. While I could rant about all the other flaws in GG all day (e.g. not all shots are equal, lack of specialty team variety, I don't think he understand defence, etc.), to get to the point, the responsibility relies on Tre putting the right staff there. In my mind, he has failed to do this. Fortunately, for him, I think his player asset management has outweighed the cons for now and he should keep his job. If GG remains this offseason, it shows an inability to correct his mistakes or potentially worse, an inability to see the problem and thus then I might start calling for Tre to be fired. But for now, it is too soon to call for his job as I think Tre has done an okay job. It is too early to call for his job.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

GG is not the problem. Top management crony hires is the cancer here. GG is just a sniffle in the sickness. Its starts with Burke at the top. It all needs to be cleansed. They may remove GG but until they clean house and make a real commitment to winning over selling Jerseys we will continue to be the same team as the last decade has been, a constant tease of Almost Famous. This team is so much like the old Leaf team its not funny. Heart is the issue as well. Johnny is an albatross. Regardless of whether he was a cheap pick up, guys like him are always supporting cast. He is not a playoff 2 way guy and that is not his fault. He is tougher this year but will never be what we need unless he starts some serious juicing. This team has realistically been out of the hunt for 2 months. Until management gets enough fan "Heat" nothing will change. May I suggest a ticket boycott. Maybe the season ticket holder can hire some high school kids to protest.

Martin St. Louis - supporting cast.
Phil Kessel - supporting cast.
Patrick Kane - supporting cast.


lol. Ok.

 

[lightstorm]

That moment when you realize Wizard Tre's best guy is here due to sheer dumb luck - if Benning wasnt a moron we'd have ended up with Sergachev or Juolevi (yuck!) and our second liners would have 20 goals between them.

His best moves are moves where he paid more than a fair price (assets & salary) for players who have some major flaws (Dougie "Soft AF" Hamilton and Michael "Cant Score" Frolik.

Then you have complete disasters in bringing in GG, Brouwer and insanely overpaying for Hamonic (when he already had a Hamonic in Stone) and Lazar.

Got zilch for NHLers Baertschi, Bad Granlund and Paul "on pace for 20 goals again" Byron.

 

[Boomstick]

We should sign Iggy for the last 10 games so he can retire a Flame. What harm could it do, the forwards are all in disarray anyways. Nobody is scoring.

 

[Dack]

GG is not the problem. Top management crony hires is the cancer here. GG is just a sniffle in the sickness. Its starts with Burke at the top. It all needs to be cleansed. They may remove GG but until they clean house and make a real commitment to winning over selling Jerseys we will continue to be the same team as the last decade has been, a constant tease of Almost Famous. This team is so much like the old Leaf team its not funny. Heart is the issue as well. Johnny is an albatross. Regardless of whether he was a cheap pick up, guys like him are always supporting cast. He is not a playoff 2 way guy and that is not his fault. He is tougher this year but will never be what we need unless he starts some serious juicing. This team has realistically been out of the hunt for 2 months. Until management gets enough fan "Heat" nothing will change. May I suggest a ticket boycott. Maybe the season ticket holder can hire some high school kids to protest.

Jesus...

Gaudreau is one of the few bright spots on this team. Patrick Kane won 3 cups and has a Conn Smythe (while being in contention for the other 2). He plays the same style as Gaudreau and I wouldn't call him a supporting player. Kessel has probably outperformed Crosby in their first cup run as well.

The problem with this team is that they don't have an elite 1C (Haven't had one in 25 years) and they don't have a bonafide top 6 RW (when ideally they have two) and they have almost zero scoring depth.

 

[Baxterman]

That moment when you realize Wizard Tre's best guy is here due to sheer dumb luck - if Benning wasnt a moron we'd have ended up with Sergachev or Juolevi (yuck!) and our second liners would have 20 goals between them.

His best moves are moves where he paid more than a fair price (assets & salary) for players who have some major flaws (Dougie "Soft AF" Hamilton and Michael "Cant Score" Frolik.

Then you have complete disasters in bringing in GG, Brouwer and insanely overpaying for Hamonic (when he already had a Hamonic in Stone) and Lazar.

Got zilch for NHLers Baertschi, Bad Granlund and Paul "on pace for 20 goals again" Byron.

LOL

Hamilton was a steal and Hamonic is definitely worth the price we paid for him. I am not in love with the Frolik signing but it certainly wasn't bad.

Baertschi and Granlund are NHLers because bottom 5 teams need players to fill out the roster and Paul "sack of shit" Byron is another guy benefiting from being on a terrible team. Put any of those 3 on our roster and we are worse off for having them. 3 complete duds.

 

[Pekkas Purse]

Martin St. Louis - supporting cast.
Phil Kessel - supporting cast.
Patrick Kane - supporting cast.
LOL

To compare Hockey to
Kessel 6'0 202lbs,
Kane 5'10" 177lbs,
St Louis 5'8" 182lbs
to Johnny at 5'9" 150lbs is a joke. All 3 play like men. Johnny is probably closer to 140lbs.
He is no where in the same league with muscularity of any of the 3. Johnny
is an incredible talent but look at the current stats and ask yourself if you're going into
the playoffs who do you really want a Johnny or an Anze who is 1 point behind. Just sayin.

Move away from the homer mentality and look at reality and you will see things in perspective.

Also,
Seanahan aint no Vinny
Seanahan aint no Gino/Sid
Seanahan aint no Toews

 

[DFF]

LOL

Hamilton was a steal and Hamonic is definitely worth the price we paid for him. I am not in love with the Frolik signing but it certainly wasn't bad.

Baertschi and Granlund are NHLers because bottom 5 teams need players to fill out the roster and Paul "sack of ****" Byron is another guy benefiting from being on a terrible team. Put any of those 3 on our roster and we are worse off for having them. 3 complete duds.

How is it worth the price when we dont even make the playoff. We trade a good chunk of future for essentially 2 more yrs of him.

 

[Sparky93]

LOL

Hamilton was a steal and Hamonic is definitely worth the price we paid for him. I am not in love with the Frolik signing but it certainly wasn't bad.

Baertschi and Granlund are NHLers because bottom 5 teams need players to fill out the roster and Paul "sack of ****" Byron is another guy benefiting from being on a terrible team. Put any of those 3 on our roster and we are worse off for having them. 3 complete duds.

Agreed except we overpaid for contract with Hamonic on the 2nd, 2nd. Plain and simple

 

[Baxterman]

How is it worth the price when we dont even make the playoff. We trade a good chunk of future for essentially 2 more yrs of him.

Because he is a very good top 4 defenseman that is likely better than any of the pieces that we gave up, young enough that we have him in his prime

We didn't miss the play-offs because we got him. We aren't more likely to make the play-offs now or in the future if we have those picks.

The price we paid to get a very good top 4 d-man is less than other teams have had to pay and more than fair.

 

[Calculon]

The problem with the Hamonic trade is not really the price but the timing of the trade itself. You don't make a move like that until you know you're already a contender and all you need is that finishing piece; when the pieces already there can get you to a conference final or at least the second round multiple times but no further. It was supposed to put the team over the top but as a whole, they've seemingly regressed. That's not Hamonic's fault yet it now casts doubt on whether this core is good enough to win it all and whether this the rebuild is viable at all. And of course, one can make the argument whether a defensive defenceman is the kind of piece that would put any team over the top.

Now granted, the extra years on Hamonic's contract mitigate the risk some but it's still pretty much the story of the Flames. Never ending impatience. Always looking for the shortcuts. And it's sad because there's a ton of really good pieces on the roster and in the system; they should had waited until the likes of Jankowski, Bennett, Hamilton, Tkachuk, etc., become bonafide difference makers on top of Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, Brodie et. al.

 

[Anglesmith]

The problem with the Hamonic trade is not really the price but the timing of the trade itself. You don't make a move like that until you know you're already a contender and all you need is that finishing piece; when the pieces already there can get you to a conference final or at least the second round multiple times but no further. It was supposed to put the team over the top but as a whole, they've seemingly regressed. That's not Hamonic's fault yet it now casts doubt on whether this core is good enough to win it all and whether this the rebuild is viable at all. And of course, one can make the argument whether a defensive defenceman is the kind of piece that would put any team over the top.

Now granted, the extra years on Hamonic's contract mitigate the risk some but it's still pretty much the story of the Flames. Never ending impatience. Always looking for the shortcuts. And it's sad because there's a ton of really good pieces on the roster and in the system; they should had waited until the likes of Jankowski, Bennett, Hamilton, Tkachuk, etc., become bonafide difference makers on top of Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, Brodie et. al.

Maybe, but in terms of getting to be contenders, a guy like Hamonic certainly doesn't hurt. The Flames were going into this year as a team that was already in the playoffs, looking to take that next step. They had three proven NHL defencemen on the roster for this season when they traded for Hamonic. It's definitely a move that made sense at the time and will continue to do so the next couple of years.

It's easy in retrospect to say they should've waited, but they bet on their team as opposed to betting against them. What they were looking at was a team with a young, developing that had gotten into the playoffs last season in spite of a bit of a messy defence corps, and wasn't losing anyone of importance going into this year. The idea isn't that you wait until all your prospects to be matured, because the whole idea is that you should always have prospects waiting in the wings. They believed in the coach and they believed in the roster, and one or the other or both of those things have let them down this season.

However, the good news about the trade was that it was not, as many main-boarders think, an all-in move. This was just year one. Next year if we're really all this bad, we'll have a first-round pick that apparently is the answer for this organization.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Controversial opinion: winning the draft lottery would be the best thing that could happen to this club in the offseason.

 

[SKRusty]

Aside from a RW .. ahem Kovalchuk. The only real move needed is to go after coach Q.... Quenneville ftw

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Controversial opinion: winning the draft lottery would be the best thing that could happen to this club in the offseason.

insofar as it would keep Rasmus Dahlin out of the Pacific? Not controversial, just depressing.

 

[Body Checker]

I agree with calculon- you don’t trade your firsts unless your a contender. I would be interested in seeing our 2015 draft list. Wonder if one of barzal, connor, chabot, konecny, white or boeser were at our spot. Then w/o Dougie we are maybe looking at a Mathews lottery ball. Yeah I know all these what ifs but just thinking we missed out on a real proper rebuild coming out of the kipper/iggy era.

 

[Anglesmith]

I agree with calculon- you don’t trade your firsts unless your a contender. I would be interested in seeing our 2015 draft list. Wonder if one of barzal, connor, chabot, konecny, white or boeser were at our spot. Then w/o Dougie we are maybe looking at a Mathews lottery ball. Yeah I know all these what ifs but just thinking we missed out on a real proper rebuild coming out of the kipper/iggy era.

We had a fourth overall pick and two sixth overall picks. If you stay at the bottom too long, you have some of those high-end prospects learning how to lose for their entire ELC, and that can really set you back. The one good thing about this team is that the young guys on this roster have tasted winning in multiple different ways. I know we all want instant gratification, but experience does build and things can turn a corner even without big, sweeping organizational changes.

The big criticism to me is that it's a shame that after we thought we turned a corner in drafting in the last decade, we have failed to produce roster players out of several picks made in the first and second rounds during that span. This team would be looking a lot better if Baertschi, Poirier, Klimchuk, Wotherspoon, Granlund, Sieloff, McDonald and Smith were impact players. And a lot of these were thought to be good picks (though not all). That's an awful lot of misses. Really, the only pick we did well on during the rebuild between the 10th pick and the fourth round was Mark Jankowski, and he has obviously been true to his billing with the amount of time he is taking to develop (although some of these guys are still marinating).

Hopefully this starts to turn a corner with guys like Valimaki, Andersson and Dube, because a rebuild is always going to plateau if the pipeline runs dry.

 

[DFF]

Because he is a very good top 4 defenseman that is likely better than any of the pieces that we gave up, young enough that we have him in his prime

We didn't miss the play-offs because we got him. We aren't more likely to make the play-offs now or in the future if we have those picks.

The price we paid to get a very good top 4 d-man is less than other teams have had to pay and more than fair.

I bet BT would not have made the deal if he knew we are not going to make the playoff.

It's not just the first pick but also multiple 2nd rounders that basically strip the Flames of valuable assets to improve the team. BT was a dead duck at the deadline even he knew the team needs help. Likely a dead duck at the draft as well.

 

[lightstorm]

LOL

Hamilton was a steal and Hamonic is definitely worth the price we paid for him. I am not in love with the Frolik signing but it certainly wasn't bad.

Baertschi and Granlund are NHLers because bottom 5 teams need players to fill out the roster and Paul "sack of ****" Byron is another guy benefiting from being on a terrible team. Put any of those 3 on our roster and we are worse off for having them. 3 complete duds.

LOL hamilton is one of the easiest guys to play against, takes more dumb penalties than your whipping boy Bennett and is flat out carried by Gio. Steal my a$$. Fair at best.

Who said Frolik was bad? But he is on a big contract, so hardly evidence of Tre's wizardry. Again an ok move at best. And these are the "best" moves on his resume (plus Smith). Thats chiarelli level bad.

I dont care what you think of Baertschi and Granlund, fact is, Tre didnt get actual NHLers back. Thats a bad thing - unless you are a complete homer.

Ans if you dont think Byron is better than the sad sack of crap we call our bottom 6 then i cant help you.

 

[Baxterman]

LOL hamilton is one of the easiest guys to play against, takes more dumb penalties than your whipping boy Bennett and is flat out carried by Gio. Steal my a$$. Fair at best.

Who said Frolik was bad? But he is on a big contract, so hardly evidence of Tre's wizardry. Again an ok move at best. And these are the "best" moves on his resume (plus Smith). Thats chiarelli level bad.

I dont care what you think of Baertschi and Granlund, fact is, Tre didnt get actual NHLers back. Thats a bad thing - unless you are a complete homer.

Ans if you dont think Byron is better than the sad sack of crap we call our bottom 6 then i cant help you.

How is Bennett my whipping boy?

As for Hamilton he is tougher to play against than 4 of the guys on our defense so not all that easy to play against. The point totals he puts up are top 10 in the league for defensemen if not higher. Him and Gio work well as a pair no matter what the reason.

Its not close to Chiarelli bad who made a similar trade to the Hamilton one except got a player back who has been waived through the league multiple times, was given away in the expansion draft and has played in 29 games in two and a half years since the deal. And when he traded for his "Hamonic" gave up a 24 year old guy who is now over a PPG and in the Hart discussion.

As for Baertschi and Granlund, he got back Andersson who it is too early to say isn't an NHLer and Shinkaruk that likely would be an NHLer if he was in Vancouver like those two.

As for Byron put him in the line-up and at best we have the same amount of points we do now, likely less considering all the chances that sack of crap would flub.

 

[Body Checker]

This era is eerily similiar to when we also had one of the best “defences” in the league in Phaneuf, Leopoldo, regehr, hamrlik, lydman, etc but we had no forward depth on team or in system and we continually traded draft picks.

Problem is the owners don’t know hockey, won’t accept a full rebuild which doesn’t take as long in today’s nhl as it used to so we are continually spinning our wheels.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Wait so the dream team of "missed opportunities" line is Baertschi - Granlund - Byron now?

Things must be bad.

 

[Baxterman]

I bet BT would not have made the deal if he knew we are not going to make the playoff.

It's not just the first pick but also multiple 2nd rounders that basically strip the Flames of valuable assets to improve the team. BT was a dead duck at the deadline even he knew the team needs help. Likely a dead duck at the draft as well.

I think the bigger issue is that we could have used those assets to try and improve the forwards more than defense.

I don't think not making the play-offs should make that big a difference as Hamonic is still far more likely to help us than any of the picks or all the picks combined and fits in with the age of the team better than those picks.

However, with hindsight and seeing how Bennett and Jankowski offered basically nothing and having Stone on the team I think you could argue that it would have been better to use the assets to get a top 6 RW (if there was one available) over Hamonic.

 

[Baxterman]

I agree with calculon- you don’t trade your firsts unless your a contender. I would be interested in seeing our 2015 draft list. Wonder if one of barzal, connor, chabot, konecny, white or boeser were at our spot. Then w/o Dougie we are maybe looking at a Mathews lottery ball. Yeah I know all these what ifs but just thinking we missed out on a real proper rebuild coming out of the kipper/iggy era.

What? We had a proper rebuild and trading for Hamilton doesn't change that.

Hamilton is better and more useful than any of the guys mentioned outside of Barzal and that is assuming he can maintain this level or something close to it going forward.

The main "issue" with our rebuild is that we started to late and wasted getting useful pieces back for our "old" assets. Wasting Iginla, Bouwmeester, Regher and Kipper's trade value to end up with basically nothing has killed our secondary scoring this year. Also with our 3 high picks we got too very good/excellent players and 1 maybe and no elite guys which is fine but hurts when you missed in so many other aspects.

The team had a proper rebuild it just isn't that case that everytime you do that it equals Pittsburgh/Chicago levels of success.

 

[The Gnome]

ugh....Time to cheer for the jays I guess. Missing the playoffs blows, this team should've been better than they were this year.

1) coaching staff overhaul
2) Trade Stone for picks
3) hope Bennett and Janko progress
4) try an land a top 6 RW sniper if possible, either by trade or FA

I don't care what people say, I feel this roster can compete, all we need is more scoring depth.