Treliving

[DFF]

But by that thinking then if we trade away a 6th round pick and that guy turns into the next Gretzky then should the GM be a laughing stock?

.

It's not the same man....I think you are smarter than that

A f***ing lottery pick is not the same as the 6th rounder that may turn into something.

How many GMs from the bubble team willing to trade his 1st pick in the last 10 yrs? Whoever did, normally ended up with egg on his face

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Gaudreau and Monahan need to be separated so they can carry their own lines. There's no reason to be this top heavy.

Frankly they're not developing Monahan right; he's capable of being 'the guy' on a line and should be tasked with that responsibility. Instead they've married him to Gaudreau and his game has devolved to wait in the slot and/or defer everything to Gaudreau. An oversimplification of his game yeah but he's capable of doing so much more.

I agree and I’ll add, I think if they were split you would see a new Monahan rise up to the challenge. It would be the best thing for the team.

I think if you go:
Gaudreau - Bennett - Ferland
Tkachuk - Monahan - xxx

The results could be amazing.

 

[Baxterman]

It's not the same man....I think you are smarter than that

A ****ing lottery pick is not the same as the 6th rounder that may turn into something.

How many GMs from the bubble team willing to trade his 1st pick in the last 10 yrs? Whoever did, normally ended up with egg on his face

It is the same because in both cases it is complete luck that turned into what the player was not bad hockey management.

If the Flames finish with the 14th pick then that is what the Flames gave up, if the lottery balls then change that to the top pick that is pure luck. It has zero to do with hockey decisions, zero to do with asset management and 100% to do with blind luck.

 

[Baxterman]

I agree and I’ll add, I think if they were split you would see a new Monahan rise up to the challenge. It would be the best thing for the team.

I think if you go:
Gaudreau - Bennett - Ferland
Tkachuk - Monahan - xxx

The results could be amazing.

They could be amazing but it is highly unlikely.

How many times does elevating bad players to higher roles than they deserve turn out to make them better? How often would that happen if those same guys are paired together and forced to do things (create offense) that they have never been able to do before?

 

[Skobel24]

I agree and I’ll add, I think if they were split you would see a new Monahan rise up to the challenge. It would be the best thing for the team.

I think if you go:
Gaudreau - Bennett - Ferland
Tkachuk - Monahan - xxx

The results could be amazing.

Tkachuk and Monahan would be amazing together with a playmaker. I think Versteeg could do well, but I'd love Nylander or Marner.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

They could be amazing but it is highly unlikely.

How many times does elevating bad players to higher roles than they deserve turn out to make them better? How often would that happen if those same guys are paired together and forced to do things (create offense) that they have never been able to do before?

Fairly often with young players, honestly.

 

[Baxterman]

Fairly often with young players, honestly.

Fairly often young guys magically turn into top line players after showing zero signs that they could play at that level?

And 26 is far from young.

 

[Calculon]

I agree in principle but in reality we don't have the players to split them up. It creates two much weaker lines and we are better off having the one line that at least is effective until we can get that other piece to pair with one of them (likely Gaudreau since he and Tkachuk are both LW).

The problem with that is that when the top line goes cold, and they have and will continue to do so on occasion, the offense disappears with them. You're selling Gaudreau and Monahan short; both are capable of putting up points without the other.

And how often do teams have three similar high end players all on the same line? Which teams in this league, in the real world, can boast of that accomplishment? And moreover, how long would something like that even last in the cap world where true top liners make at minimum 6M, to a more current 8M+ in the post McDavid/Draisaitl era?

The best you can realistically hope for is two high end players and one complimentary piece.

When we don't even really have true third line players to play them with if we do split them up, then it's a problem. If you are putting Bennett with Gaudreau fine, but Monahan cannot be expected to lift Jankowski and whatever winger they throw with him. Better to run one stacked line, fix the forward depth next year.

Tkachuk is pretty good, no? If anything, he's better than the linemates Gaudreau gets.

Tkachuk-Monahan-XXX
Gaudreau-Bennett-Ferland
Jankowski-Backlund-Frolik
Lazar-Shore-Brouwer

A line up like that just needs one more top six right winger. Bennett and Jankowski can be switched depending on production and effectiveness.

Acquiring that right winger is the problem though (and obviously a coach willing to tinker with things). I think Dube would work really well next to those two but he's probably not ready. Free agency is kind of weak. Move Hamilton or trade one of Bennett or Jankowski for an age appropriate right winger with potential.

 

[Baxterman]

The problem with that is that when the top line goes cold, and they have and will continue to do so on occasion, the offense disappears with them. You're selling Gaudreau and Monahan short; both are capable of putting up points without the other.

And how often do teams have three similar high end players all on the same line? Which teams in this league, in the real world, can boast of that accomplishment? And moreover, how long would something like that even last in the cap world where true top liners make at minimum 6M, to a more current 8M+ in the post McDavid/Draisaitl era?

The best you can realistically hope for is two high end players and one complimentary piece.

I agree with you but i don't think we have the right players to pull it off. I am not expecting 3 70+ point guys on the top line but I think we can do better than Bennett and Ferland who have struggled to get 40. Its not so much that I think that either guy can't put up points without the other I question whether they can put up points with the options we have for the 4/5/6 guys.

I think if you can get another top 6 guy between Monahan/Gaudreau/Tkachuk and Bennett/Ferland/Versteeg then that works much better.

An example I will use since he was briefly talked about at the TD and moved would be Derick Brassard. While I think it would be best to try him out with Tkachuk and Bennett first if you were tied to splitting up Gaudreau and Monahan, lines with him there are a lot more reasonable.

Tkachuk-Monahan-Versteeg/Ferland
Gaudreau-Brassard-Bennett

Now Gaudreau isn't stuck as the only guy who can create on the line and has some offensive support. It also allows Bennett to be much more of a complimentary piece than a guy relied on to drive play at times. Now I think a RW would make more sense to split up Monahan/Gaudreau pairing since we would likely need Bennett to play center at that point. I am having a hard time thinking of a legit RW target but lets say James Neal.

Gaudreu-Bennett-Neal
Tkachuk-Monahan-Ferland/Versteeg

I think those are reasonable lines in both cases with Monahan and Gaudreau split. I still think the best option is to keep them together, especially with our current line-up and the bigger move is to get Tkachuk off the 3M line to create a secondary scoring line to support what would be the clear top line rather than two 2nd lines.

 

[Sparky93]

So, we split up basically the only successful part of the team to make up for lesser players shortcomings, and sit on our hands, instead of adding someone talented via smart trade to replace underachieving players. Sounds incredibly similar to what the Oilers tried this year...amazingly successful....at least we have our 1st next year. You don’t break up a player that’s 4th overall in ESP and a guy that’s 32nd. Even with a dismal 25th ranked PP, they’re still 21st and 43rd in total PP points.

 

[DFF]

It is the same because in both cases it is complete luck that turned into what the player was not bad hockey management.

If the Flames finish with the 14th pick then that is what the Flames gave up, if the lottery balls then change that to the top pick that is pure luck. It has zero to do with hockey decisions, zero to do with asset management and 100% to do with blind luck.

Nope I disagree. BT bet on the team to make the playoff and he lost.

Yes, luck is part of it but it wasnt blind luck, he knew if they do not make the playoff, there is some odd that it may be a top pick

 

[viper0220]

So, we split up basically the only successful part of the team to make up for lesser players shortcomings, and sit on our hands, instead of adding someone talented via smart trade to replace underachieving players. Sounds incredibly similar to what the Oilers tried this year...amazingly successful....at least we have our 1st next year. You don’t break up a player that’s 4th overall in ESP and a guy that’s 32nd. Even with a dismal 25th ranked PP, they’re still 21st and 43rd in total PP points.

It is not so much of breaking up what's working but spreading the wealth, if you put Tkachuk with Monahan and put Johnny with Bennett and get a very good RW to play with one of the lines and put Ferland on the other line, that would blance things outs(this is assuming Bennett works out at Center.)

When you are building a Cup contender, look at how you stack up against Cup contenders.

How do we stack up against Boston, Tampa Bay, Nashville and other Cup contenders?

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Monahan can't center Tkachuk. He needs wingers that fly well ahead of him and then drop back to him, as Ferland and Gaudreau do.

Only way I could see that pair working is if Monahan and Tkachuk are the flanks and a guy like Backlund, Bennett, or Jankowski is centering.

 

[Lunatik]

When does he start feeling the heat? Everyone dumps on GG but he’s Brad’s coach and this is Brad’s team. No picks, no impact forwards in system and stuck in the middle.

He was a quick hire so I wonder about business connections there. Came from Arizona, a losing franchise. Not sure how strong that resume was.

Yeah I’m frustrated as heck here.

Gully is his first coach that he chose, generally a GM will get 2-3 hires before they are let go.

 

[Lunatik]

People seriously talking about Bennett back to center? Did you guys miss, I don't know pretty much every games he's centered in his entire f***ing career?

Bennett is not a f***ing center. He's barely a 3rd line winger.

 

[Janks]

People seriously talking about Bennett back to center? Did you guys miss, I don't know pretty much every games he's centered in his entire ****ing career?

Bennett is not a ****ing center. He's barely a 3rd line winger.

No, you’re confused. You’re thinking of Monahan, not Benny.

 

[DFF]

No, you’re confused. You’re thinking of Monahan, not Benny.

It applies to both

 

[Sparky93]

It is not so much of breaking up what's working but spreading the wealth, if you put Tkachuk with Monahan and put Johnny with Bennett and get a very good RW to play with one of the lines and put Ferland on the other line, that would blance things outs(this is assuming Bennett works out at Center.)

When you are building a Cup contender, look at how you stack up against Cup contenders.

How do we stack up against Boston, Tampa Bay, Nashville and other Cup contenders?

Bennett hasn’t shown enough to warrant that, at center anyways.

I really want Dvorak. He has 34 points on a horrible team, with less offensive zone starts than Backlund and he just turned 22. Not to mention him and Tkachuk were 2/3rds of a near unstoppable line in junior. Dvorak is more or less the perfect, cost controlled fit, that will continue to improve. The Coyotes also have Strome waiting in the wings.

Jankowski + Fox for Dvorak

Janko’s bigger and a bit better defensively but Dvorak has higher end potential. The high end RHS defenseman should make it appealing enough for the Coyotes.

I still like the idea of Stone for Leivo + 3rd, giving us.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Dvorak-Leivo
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik
Mangiapane/Dube-Shore/Lazar-Brouwer

Shore/Lazar

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Hamonic
Kulak-Andersson

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I think Bennett has looked better at W for sure. But I also don’t think his career as a C is necessarily over. The spot times since he’s been used there since, he’s looked just fine. C is a much harder position to play so I’m not surprised it’s taken Bennett longer to develop there.

While Monahan has had much greater success at C, it was just last season that he was bumped down in the lineup to work on his game. Monahan has been able to score since entering the league, but it’s really only been this season that his defensive game has taken a big leap.

MacKinnon and Barkov have also taken several seasons to really put it all together. Unless your McDavid or Matthews, it’s rare a player can just jump in and be a polished C.

Bennett is trending over a longer period to get to his potential, this is no secret. But I think as long as he’s given minutes with like skilled players that the payout will be worth it. And I just don’t think the book is written on him at C. Confidence is an issue with him I think, so I agree with the move that was done. But I also think that as he eases more into being an NHL’er, he might transition back to C at some point and be a very good one at that.

 

[Lunatik]

I think Bennett has looked better at W for sure. But I also don’t think his career as a C is necessarily over. The spot times since he’s been used there since, he’s looked just fine. C is a much harder position to play so I’m not surprised it’s taken Bennett longer to develop there.

While Monahan has had much greater success at C, it was just last season that he was bumped down in the lineup to work on his game. Monahan has been able to score since entering the league, but it’s really only been this season that his defensive game has taken a big leap.

MacKinnon and Barkov have also taken several seasons to really put it all together. Unless your McDavid or Matthews, it’s rare a player can just jump in and be a polished C.

Bennett is trending over a longer period to get to his potential, this is no secret. But I think as long as he’s given minutes with like skilled players that the payout will be worth it. And I just don’t think the book is written on him at C. Confidence is an issue with him I think, so I agree with the move that was done. But I also think that as he eases more into being an NHL’er, he might transition back to C at some point and be a very good one at that.

Are you seriously comparing MacKinnon and Barkov to Bennett? Both showed significantly more than Bennett ever has. He can't even sniff their f***ing jocks. Bennett is showing he is an average 3rd liner and showing no tangible improvement. He's looking more like Blake Comeau than anyone you mentioned.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Are you seriously comparing MacKinnon and Barkov to Bennett? Both showed significantly more than Bennett ever has. He can't even sniff their ****ing jocks. Bennett is showing he is an average 3rd liner and showing no tangible improvement. He's looking more like Blake Comeau than anyone you mentioned.

I’m genuinely perplexed what exactly in my post warranted this over the top reaction?

Did I compare Bennett to Mack or Barkov? Or did I use 2 examples of really good young players who have taken a few seasons to round out the kinks in their games. I also said Bennett is trending over a longer period to reach his potential.

My point is, look at a guy like Couturier who was used primarily in a 3rd line role for his 1st 5 seasons. When he was finally played with like top skilled players, now suddenly he’s producing like one. I know you don’t think so, but Bennett is a very skilled player and he should be playing in our top 6.

Again I never said Bennett is going to be Barkov or Mack. I was stating that his days at playing C may not be over, all you’ve added to the discussion is 2 posts full of personal bias.

 

[InfinityIggy]

At least we can all agree Backlund is our best center.

 

[CamPopplestone]

I think Bennett coming up to the NHL immediately was a mistsmi. The playoff run was fine. But that blinded the team. He really could have used a couple years of seasoning. For all the Oilers faults with this, at least with Drai they bit the bullet and sent him down from the NHL even though they had already burned a year off his deal

As for BT, he has faults, but I'm not convinced we end up with someone better if we ditch him now. I'm honestly guessing thr team attempting to be competitive now is probably an ownership mandate.

 

[Pekkas Purse]

GG is not the problem. Top management crony hires is the cancer here. GG is just a sniffle in the sickness. Its starts with Burke at the top. It all needs to be cleansed. They may remove GG but until they clean house and make a real commitment to winning over selling Jerseys we will continue to be the same team as the last decade has been, a constant tease of Almost Famous. This team is so much like the old Leaf team its not funny. Heart is the issue as well. Johnny is an albatross. Regardless of whether he was a cheap pick up, guys like him are always supporting cast. He is not a playoff 2 way guy and that is not his fault. He is tougher this year but will never be what we need unless he starts some serious juicing. This team has realistically been out of the hunt for 2 months. Until management gets enough fan "Heat" nothing will change. May I suggest a ticket boycott. Maybe the season ticket holder can hire some high school kids to protest.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

GG is not the problem. Top management crony hires is the cancer here. GG is just a sniffle in the sickness. Its starts with Burke at the top. It all needs to be cleansed. They may remove GG but until they clean house and make a real commitment to winning over selling Jerseys we will continue to be the same team as the last decade has been, a constant tease of Almost Famous. This team is so much like the old Leaf team its not funny. Heart is the issue as well. Johnny is an albatross. Regardless of whether he was a cheap pick up, guys like him are always supporting cast. He is not a playoff 2 way guy and that is not his fault. He is tougher this year but will never be what we need unless he starts some serious juicing. This team has realistically been out of the hunt for 2 months. Until management gets enough fan "Heat" nothing will change. May I suggest a ticket boycott. Maybe the season ticket holder can hire some high school kids to protest.

@Method Man, I apologize. This is an over the top post.