Helene St. James Tough Sledding

[VM1138]

This whole size thing is crap. Obviously size is nice to have, but some players are capable of playing bigger than their frame. Look at Datsyuk. Guy is so clearly stronger on the puck than anyone on the team, more than Franzen. Look at Z, he protects the puck as well as any player in the league.

If a player plays big, stop worrying about his height and weight. Tatar had no issues due to size in his games up. None at all. People are making a big deal out of nothing. Would it be nice if he was 6'5 220 but Datsyuk isn't and he's fantastic every night.

Gauge how they play, not their stats sheet.

Thank you! I get so tired of reading people cite height and weight and never mentioning how they play. There's more to hockey than those two stats. For instance, if you're a smart player, like Datsyuk, you rarely get hit. If you're a tenacious player like Helm or Tatar, you create your own space.

 

[PullHard]

Thank you! I get so tired of reading people cite height and weight and never mentioning how they play. There's more to hockey than those two stats. For instance, if you're a smart player, like Datsyuk, you rarely get hit. If you're a tenacious player like Helm or Tatar, you create your own space.

Oh god, don't let the Babcock propaganda pushers read this. Only Abby and Cleary can create space! Tatar is small!

 

[Winger98]

Oh god, don't let the Babcock propaganda pushers read this. Only Abby and Cleary can create space! Tatar is small!

bigger guys creating space by sucking more players down to the boards and buy moving towards the net isn't propaganda. It's easier for bigger guys to get to the net, stay in that area, and occupy the defense there. Smaller guys can still be effective, and can still do this job (Ciccarelli), but the type of effectiveness for a smaller guy in creating space and the type of effectiveness for a larger guy are two different things, imo.

Tatar's an effective player, but I wouldn't ask him to do what I'd ask Gator to do, or vice versa.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

bigger guys creating space by sucking more players down to the boards and buy moving towards the net isn't propaganda. It's easier for bigger guys to get to the net, stay in that area, and occupy the defense there. Smaller guys can still be effective, and can still do this job (Ciccarelli), but the type of effectiveness for a smaller guy in creating space and the type of effectiveness for a larger guy are two different things, imo.

Tatar's an effective player, but I wouldn't ask him to do what I'd ask Gator to do, or vice versa.

There's bigger and then there's taller. Taller gives you a longer reach and makes protecting the puck and poking the puck away easier. It can be a huge advantage.

 

[PullHard]

bigger guys creating space by sucking more players down to the boards and buy moving towards the net isn't propaganda. It's easier for bigger guys to get to the net, stay in that area, and occupy the defense there. Smaller guys can still be effective, and can still do this job (Ciccarelli), but the type of effectiveness for a smaller guy in creating space and the type of effectiveness for a larger guy are two different things, imo.

Tatar's an effective player, but I wouldn't ask him to do what I'd ask Gator to do, or vice versa.

Abby sure, I can give you that. I guess he "finishes his hits" (not like Tootoo does, but whatever), but expecting either Abby or Cleary to win a battle for the puck and do something useful with it if they do win that battle (which doesn't really happen all that often) is akin to expecting Holland to make a blockbuster trade.

 

[Winger98]

There's bigger and then there's taller. Taller gives you a longer reach and makes protecting the puck and poking the puck away easier. It can be a huge advantage.

there's an advantage to just being thicker, though, too. I think you're better able to take some of that beating, and to give it back. If Homer is two inches shorter and twenty pounds lighter, I don't think he is able to take nearly the beating that he absorbed in his career.

Abby sure, I can give you that. I guess he "finishes his hits" (not like Tootoo does, but whatever), but expecting either Abby or Cleary to win a battle for the puck and do something useful with it if they do win that battle (which doesn't really happen all that often) is akin to expecting Holland to make a blockbuster trade.

That line was ugly, but I think those two got a disproportionate amount of flak at a time when most of the team was imploding. No one called out Z's line for not producing. the blueline wasn't generating offense. The powerplay wasn't generating offense. And we were playing each of our bottom lines like 10 minutes a night.

With Abby, though, it's a new role for him at a time where we didn't have a lot of wiggle room for learning on the job. He's not my ideal guy for that spot, and I'd much rather have Gus or Tatar next to D and Franzen, but that doesn't appear too likely to happen. We may as well give Gator some time there with a better team around him and see what happens. Guys like Homer and Lapointe weren't great at that sort of job when they started either. Maybe Abdelkader grows into it.

with Cleary, I think he's just done being a top6 player. To be successful, he's had to force his body to do things that it really just wasn't built to do - play a big body game in the NHL. If we can bump him down now to ~13 minutes a night on the third line, I think he can be an asset. The days of playing 17 minutes a night in every situation and grinding out goals are just over. He doesn't have it physically in him any more.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

bigger guys creating space by sucking more players down to the boards and buy moving towards the net isn't propaganda. It's easier for bigger guys to get to the net, stay in that area, and occupy the defense there. Smaller guys can still be effective, and can still do this job (Ciccarelli), but the type of effectiveness for a smaller guy in creating space and the type of effectiveness for a larger guy are two different things, imo.

Tatar's an effective player, but I wouldn't ask him to do what I'd ask Gator to do, or vice versa.

It is BS.
Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Flip are better on the wall and create more space for teammates than Cleary and Abdelakder.

They are no different at all.

If we had right winger with skill, instead of Abs, he'd create a TON of space.
That's why Tatar makes sense on Datsyuk's wing

And come on... Cleary is what? 6'0? 200 pounds? Abdelkader is 6'1 210?
These aren't big guys

 

[PullHard]

That line was ugly, but I think those two got a disproportionate amount of flak at a time when most of the team was imploding. No one called out Z's line for not producing. the blueline wasn't generating offense. The powerplay wasn't generating offense. And we were playing each of our bottom lines like 10 minutes a night.

With Abby, though, it's a new role for him at a time where we didn't have a lot of wiggle room for learning on the job. He's not my ideal guy for that spot, and I'd much rather have Gus or Tatar next to D and Franzen, but that doesn't appear too likely to happen. We may as well give Gator some time there with a better team around him and see what happens. Guys like Homer and Lapointe weren't great at that sort of job when they started either. Maybe Abdelkader grows into it.

with Cleary, I think he's just done being a top6 player. To be successful, he's had to force his body to do things that it really just wasn't built to do - play a big body game in the NHL. If we can bump him down now to ~13 minutes a night on the third line, I think he can be an asset. The days of playing 17 minutes a night in every situation and grinding out goals are just over. He doesn't have it physically in him any more.

I agree. I think people weren't calling attention to Z's line or defense because we KNOW Datsyuk is capable of making half-competent players look like gifted goal scorers. But even he can't make both Abby and Cleary into top6 wingers simultaneously. Anyway, hopefully with some guys coming back from injury the team has more balanced lines for the rest of the year. I really didn't see the harm in Tatar getting top 6 minutes, but so be it, I have no control over it. Babs disagrees with it, so it isn't happening.

 

[Winger98]

It is BS.
Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Flip are better on the wall and create more space for teammates than Cleary and Abdelakder.

They are no different at all.

If we had right winger with skill, instead of Abs, he'd create a TON of space.
That's why Tatar makes sense on Datsyuk's wing

And come on... Cleary is what? 6'0? 200 pounds? Abdelkader is 6'1 210?
These aren't big guys

They are bigger than the 5'11'' 175 that Tatar rings up at. And I think Cleary is a prime example of what happens when smaller guys consistently try to play a bigger game. You can't tell me that part of the reason he's had such a hard time staying healthy is that he's played a game his body wasn't suited for.

And I agree, I'd put Tatar or Gus on Datsyuk's wing now.

 

[Flowah]

Playing a bigger game doesn't mean throwing hits constantly. Just be tenacious, strong on the puck, win battles.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

They are bigger than the 5'11'' 175 that Tatar rings up at. And I think Cleary is a prime example of what happens when smaller guys consistently try to play a bigger game. You can't tell me that part of the reason he's had such a hard time staying healthy is that he's played a game his body wasn't suited for.

And I agree, I'd put Tatar or Gus on Datsyuk's wing now.

Yeah, they're bigger. But they're big enough or skilled enough to win battles.

Tatar plays with the speed and intensity and quickness to win battles. And Tatar can create space with skill. Those idiots think that kicking the puck around and losing a battle is good enough.

What I am saying, these guys don't create space. It's a myth.
Todd Bertuzzi creates some space, despite all of his giveaways, because he's 6'3, 240 pounds and people watch their back when he's on the ice.
Justin Abdelakder is a plug. Look how much better Drew Miller looked on Z's line than Abdelkader looks on Pavel's line.
Cause Miller skates, he's higher energy, and has an IQ.

Abdelkader is playing what Brett Hull called "stupid hockey." Coach Babcock loves having guys like that, maybe because Babcock was a no-skill player who had to kick pucks around the boards his entire career.
I got no problem with Abs playing a 4th line wing/PK role.

But I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for the Datsyuk-Abdelkader line.

It makes no sense.

Everyone thinks we're going to be better when healthy.

Having Helm back will help. But when Bertuzzi and Sammy join... we're just last year's team -- except older, slower and worse on defense.

 

[sepster]

Size matters. So does skill. It works like this:

Datsyuk (a smaller player) is able to be extremely effective because his skill set and hockey IQ are Top 3 in the world, easy. His lack of size is more than compensated by his insane skill level. Now, if Datsyuk had an average skill set, what would you have? Cory Emmerton, that's what player you would have. Nothing special, almost completely ineffective. Can't protect the puck well, can't fight to scoring areas well, gets beat up easily.

Now, take Cory Emmerton's skill set, pretty average, but put that in a body that is Franzen or Bertuzzi's size. What do you have? Probably, a player like Chris Stewart. Not especially skilled, can disappear for long stretchs, but produces because his sizes allows him to get to scoring areas faster and easier, protect pucks easier and take more abuse.

When you have a player that has an amazing skill set and a small body you get the Gretzky's, Yzerman's, Larionov's, Datsyuk's and Crosby's of the game.

When you have above average skill sets and big bodies you end up with the John Leclair's and Shanahan's.

Skill and size and you get the Lemeiux's, Lindros's, Malkin's

Downgrade size or skill too much and you get your Maltby's, Draper's, Emmerton's of the world.

 

[Winger98]

Playing a bigger game doesn't mean throwing hits constantly. Just be tenacious, strong on the puck, win battles.

On the one hand, I agree with you. And our smaller guys have typically been very good at those things. At the same time, if you ask Tatar to go in hard on every forecheck, initiate contact and scrum behind the net and then go stand in front of the goalie, he's going to get mauled. You want guys with bigger frames to do that sort of grunt work.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

On the one hand, I agree with you. And our smaller guys have typically been very good at those things. At the same time, if you ask Tatar to go in hard on every forecheck, initiate contact and scrum behind the net and then go stand in front of the goalie, he's going to get mauled. You want guys with bigger frames to do that sort of grunt work.

No you don't.

Who was the grunt on the Yzerman, Fedorov Shanahan line?
Who was the grunt on the Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Hull line.

One... if you're playing hockey the way you should, you shouldn't be dumping and chasing with Datsyuk or Zetterberg's line.

Two, you've got Franzen on Datsyuk's other wing. Franzen is better along the boards than Abdelkader.

Tatar isn't going to get mauled. He's a smart player.

We saw Tatar go in behind the net, hit a defenseman, steal the puck, pass it to the defense, who passed to Kronwall, who then shot the puck off Eaves' skate for a goal.

We see Datsyuk go behind the net, steal the puck, dish it to Cleary for a shorty.

What do we see Abdelkader do behind the net?

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Size matters. So does skill. It works like this:

Datsyuk (a smaller player) is able to be extremely effective because his skill set and hockey IQ are Top 3 in the world, easy. His lack of size is more than compensated by his insane skill level. Now, if Datsyuk had an average skill set, what would you have? Cory Emmerton, that's what player you would have. Nothing special, almost completely ineffective. Can't protect the puck well, can't fight to scoring areas well, gets beat up easily.

Now, take Cory Emmerton's skill set, pretty average, but put that in a body that is Franzen or Bertuzzi's size. What do you have? Probably, a player like Chris Stewart. Not especially skilled, can disappear for long stretchs, but produces because his sizes allows him to get to scoring areas faster and easier, protect pucks easier and take more abuse.

When you have a player that has an amazing skill set and a small body you get the Gretzky's, Yzerman's, Larionov's, Datsyuk's and Crosby's of the game.

When you have above average skill sets and big bodies you end up with the John Leclair's and Shanahan's.

Skill and size and you get the Lemeiux's, Lindros's, Malkin's

Downgrade size or skill too much and you get your Maltby's, Draper's, Emmerton's of the world.

Maltby and Draper are much better than Abdelkader..
Those guys good skate really well.

 

[sepster]

Maltby and Draper are much better than Abdelkader..
Those guys good skate really well.

I understand that, I'm just addressing the idea that both size AND skill factor in to how effective a player is.

Abdelkader will never be a top 6 player, not because of his size, but because of his skill set.

Cleary should never be in a top 6 role again because he never had the hockey IQ and now his body is shot.

If Draper had a better skill set (hands, finishing ability) to go with his blazing speed and skating ability he would have been a consistent 30 goal scorer.

If Tatar's skill set was in Franzen's body he would be better than a in-his-prime Bertuzzi.

 

[Winger98]

Yeah, they're bigger. But they're big enough or skilled enough to win battles.

Tatar plays with the speed and intensity and quickness to win battles. And Tatar can create space with skill. Those idiots think that kicking the puck around and losing a battle is good enough.

What I am saying, these guys don't create space. It's a myth.
Todd Bertuzzi creates some space, despite all of his giveaways, because he's 6'3, 240 pounds and people watch their back when he's on the ice.
Justin Abdelakder is a plug. Look how much better Drew Miller looked on Z's line than Abdelkader looks on Pavel's line.
Cause Miller skates, he's higher energy, and has an IQ.

Abdelkader is playing what Brett Hull called "stupid hockey." Coach Babcock loves having guys like that, maybe because Babcock was a no-skill player who had to kick pucks around the boards his entire career.
I got no problem with Abs playing a 4th line wing/PK role.

But I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for the Datsyuk-Abdelkader line.

It makes no sense.

Everyone thinks we're going to be better when healthy.

Having Helm back will help. But when Bertuzzi and Sammy join... we're just last year's team -- except older, slower and worse on defense.

To a certain degree I think you're preaching to the choir here. When the injuries were at their worst, I don't think it would have mattered who was on Datsyuk's wing. I know we disagree about that, and I don't feel like going into a three week old argument about it.

With Gator, specifically, I think he's inexperienced. And he does lack IQ - but I think some of that could be helped with experience in the top6. Since I think we both know that Nyquist/Tatar are not going to get that shot, I'm more okay with Gator there than Cleary. It sucks, we both think it's the wrong choice, but it is what it is.

I think we will get better as we get healthy. And the rest of the conference isn't exactly lighting the world on fire (well, except for Chicago and Anaheim). I think both of us want to see the kids worked into the lineup, but it just doesn't appear likely.

 

[Winger98]

No you don't.

Who was the grunt on the Yzerman, Fedorov Shanahan line?
Who was the grunt on the Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Hull line.

One... if you're playing hockey the way you should, you shouldn't be dumping and chasing with Datsyuk or Zetterberg's line.

Two, you've got Franzen on Datsyuk's other wing. Franzen is better along the boards than Abdelkader.

Tatar isn't going to get mauled. He's a smart player.

We saw Tatar go in behind the net, hit a defenseman, steal the puck, pass it to the defense, who passed to Kronwall, who then shot the puck off Eaves' skate for a goal.

We see Datsyuk go behind the net, steal the puck, dish it to Cleary for a shorty.

What do we see Abdelkader do behind the net?

You just compared Tatar to six guys who are either in the HoF or are likely to be in the HoF. If we could overload a line with that type of skill, yeah, go for it. However, we didn't have the skill for that when the injuries hit.

And I've already agree that I'd put Tatar or Nyquist on Datsyuk's line now, you know, with Franzen on the other side.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

To a certain degree I think you're preaching to the choir here. When the injuries were at their worst, I don't think it would have mattered who was on Datsyuk's wing. I know we disagree about that, and I don't feel like going into a three week old argument about it.

With Gator, specifically, I think he's inexperienced. And he does lack IQ - but I think some of that could be helped with experience in the top6. Since I think we both know that Nyquist/Tatar are not going to get that shot, I'm more okay with Gator there than Cleary. It sucks, we both think it's the wrong choice, but it is what it is.

I think we will get better as we get healthy. And the rest of the conference isn't exactly lighting the world on fire (well, except for Chicago and Anaheim). I think both of us want to see the kids worked into the lineup, but it just doesn't appear likely.

I'm trying to figure out how Gator scored 24 goals in Grand Rapids.

It's time to let the Lapointe comparisons go away.
Lapointe was 22 the year he scored 16 goals. He put up 4 15-17 goal seasons in a row before breaking loose with 27.

Lapointe had a hard slapshot and a great wrist shot. He wasn't the brightest bulb in the box, but he had some offensive instincts.

I think Frk is more like Lapointe than Abdelkader is/was.

Abs is missing stick skills. He's got a weak shot. He's got a slow release. he doesn't appear to have hand-eye to deflect pucks. I just don't see offense in his game.

 

[JPE123]

It's all how you use people. Personally, I have no problem with Abby. He's an average 4th liner. He works hard and doesn't make a lot of mistakes and gives top six guys a breather. But when you put him in the top six, that changes everything from an expectation point of view. He's just not a top six NHL guy. I hear very little complaining about Miller for example, because he's being used in the role he's best suited for. Cleary was a top sixer at the height of his career, not anymore. We just seem to use people wrong. Tatar has top six talent, so does Nyquist. Nyquist is never given an opportunity for whatever reason. It seems almost psychotic on Babcock's part. He brings him up, uses him a few minutes and then sends him down. Not even enough time to evaluate him in a game situation. I'm really confused by Babcock's handling of players.

 

[Henkka]

 

[Winger98]

I'm trying to figure out how Gator scored 24 goals in Grand Rapids.

It's time to let the Lapointe comparisons go away.
Lapointe was 22 the year he scored 16 goals. He put up 4 15-17 goal seasons in a row before breaking loose with 27.

Lapointe had a hard slapshot and a great wrist shot. He wasn't the brightest bulb in the box, but he had some offensive instincts.

I think Frk is more like Lapointe than Abdelkader is/was.

Abs is missing stick skills. He's got a weak shot. He's got a slow release. he doesn't appear to have hand-eye to deflect pucks. I just don't see offense in his game.

The same way Mursak did

Gator seems willing to work his butt off and get his nose dirty. I think he has the ability to get better at the board battles, but it's something we'll have to suffer through until it gets there. And just being willing to go to the net and whack away and get whacked can be enough to be useful. At the same time, he's 26 now. that ship might have sailed.

If we'd have pushed him into this sort of role two years ago, maybe he could have become another Mike Grier.

edit: to go along with Grier, both of his 20 goal seasons came before Gator's current age. as we know, goal scoring/points tend to peak early, in the early-mid20s for most players. Now, an exception can probably be made for guys like Brunner and Franzen, who played until later ages in other men's leagues, but I have to wonder how much of a knock Gator's late age could be against him ever developing scoring skills beyond what he has now.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I think he should have been a winger. I said the same thing about Helm, though, too (and still believe it).

 

[jaster]

Abs is missing stick skills. He's got a weak shot. He's got a slow release. he doesn't appear to have hand-eye to deflect pucks. I just don't see offense in his game.

Because he has no offense in his game. Does anyone believe he does? I remember when he scored those two playoff goals and a bunch of people went into a frenzy about him being a top-6 winger. Problem was, those were two very flukey goals, and it was obvious even then that the guy had no offense.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Because he has no offense in his game. Does anyone believe he does? I remember when he scored those two playoff goals and a bunch of people went into a frenzy about him being a top-6 winger. Problem was, those were two very flukey goals, and it was obvious even then that the guy had no offense.

I didn't see a lot of Abdelkader in college. But I know he scored clutch goals. Then he comes up for the playoffs and scores goals. (now he's 16 playoff games without a point!)

I can't remember the last non-goon Red Wing with so little skill.