TOR vs PIT

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Brent Burns Beard, Dec 14, 2004.

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  1. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    1) TOR just got rich(er). They wont lose ANY revenue, but only have to pay out about 39m in revenue. How nice. What happens with that other 30m they were more than happy to pay on payroll ?

    2) How does PIT get their payroll up to 34m without going bankrupt ?

    How come PIT isnt demanding TOR share their revenue ? Why isnt this an owner vs owner fight ?

    I fail to see how this deal helps teams who cant even afford a 35m payroll anyway, although i do see why Melnyk and McCaw and MLSE are willing to lose the season. They know the payoff is MASSIVE.

    Sigh is right.

    DR
     
  2. likea

    likea Registered User

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    Pittsburgh made money just 4 years ago with a 34 million dollar payroll

    Pittsburgh fans will support the Pens when they have a chance to win and keep their own stars

    right now why would the Pens spend 34 million dollars while losing everyone of their superstars to a high payroll team

    that does not interest the fans and you lose your fan base....the Pens set themselves up for this year....2004 and the lockout, they have stated that a million times

    they plan to have a ton of room under the cap and they know they will be forced to sign players, and THIS WILL BE A BUYERS MARKET because alot of teams will have to cut payroll

    The Pens have 14 million dollars set aside for payroll right now, with Kovy, Palfy, Primeau all looking for a spot to play

    more than half of the teams are over the cap and alot of those teams are right at the cap

    so they will not have alot of room to sign players therefore Pittsburgh and other teams can have their pick of the players on the UFA market....
     
  3. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    Melnyk would certainly do better but he wouldn't be making out like a bandit like MLSE. McCaw is somewhere between the two. The Canadian dollar is currently way up against a weak US, it could go down again when the US gets its act together. For the guys like Melnyk I doubt they can do much about ticket prices. The Sens are a team is at its peak & the Canadian dollar is very high. This is time for him to squirrel away as much profit as he can for when the team stinks again, no playoff revenue, the crowds stop coming so he's forced to lower prices: net effect is the team is losing millions.

    The Leafs, Rangers, Flyers and Wings could lower prices, they have the flexibility and fat to do so. I could see MLSE dropping ticket prices quite a bit since hey could slash $30m off the payroll and knock $15m of ticket revenue (massively lower ticket prices) and still pocket an extra $15m each year. PR would almost dictate they do it.

    I've got no idea how Pits is supposed to get that much payroll short of revenue sharing that is targeted at low revenue teams (much smarted than targeted at low payroll teams).
     
  4. Thew Toronto Maple Leafs shouldn't have to foot the bill to keep some teams that are on life support in business. Just pull the plug already.
     
  5. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    and people think the players should tie their pay to a group of people who willingly lower revenue ?

    why wouldnt TOR charge every penny the market will bear ? do they not owe it the players to do so ? every dollar they reduce the ticket prices by is a 45% reduction in pay to the player ? why should they support that ?

    will the NHL force Bill Wirtz to sign a damn TV contract ? why shouldnt the players demand it, arent they partners in the NHL's dream ?

    dr
     
  6. saba

    saba Registered User

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    nearsighted

    you start loosing american located teams-kiss any chance of a lucrative tv deal goodbye. no american media outlet is going to feature toronto vs ottawa. Teams fold in the US, you just locked hockey as a niche sport with no coverage outside of Canada and some larger US markets
     
  7. craig1

    craig1 Registered User

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    The Pens are about to build thier own arena....with mostly private financing. This is 100% dependant on a favorable CBA. Good CBA, and they are the immediate frontrunner for the Pittsburgh slot machine liscense.....part of the stipulation in getting it is giving back to the community. Pens are offering to build a brand new, state of the art arena to replace an aging dinosaur. The arena right now will not draw top acts due to its condition and amenities. The closest offer after that? Someone is willing to build a little parking garage.

    But the Pens have said, they want to operate the team as a seperate entity that needs to at least be self sufficient (outside arena construction costs). Bad CBA, and they are not even going to bother.
     
  8. craig1

    craig1 Registered User

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    And an FYI: Pittsburgh is not the bottom of the barrel financially. They dedicated themselves the past few years to operating with the restraint that so many of you are saying that the owners, whom you blame solely, should show. When a team does this, and refuses to lose money, you cry out for them to fold! Complete hipocrasy!
     
  9. Jaded-Fan

    Jaded-Fan Registered User

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    (repost, and it seems that I need to post this nearly every week until some of you check your facts before you spout off. This may be the fourth time that I have posted this info):


    :shakehead

    This again? During the three hockey seasons covering 2000 - 2003 the Pens, while racking up near last in the league two of those three years (2003 - 4 attendence records, where they finished last, are not on this site), had only 16 teams with better attendence and 14 teams with worse attendence than they racked up . . . knock off the Nashville Predators, the Los Angeles Kings , the New Jersey Devils, the Edmonton Oilers, the Washington Capitals , the Boston Bruins, the Atlanta Thrashers, the Chicago Black Hawks, the Tampa Bay Lightning, the Florida Panthers, the Phoenix Coyotes, the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim, the Carolina Hurricanes and the worst of all, the New York Islanders before you start trolling around here about the Pens again:

    AVERAGE ATTENDANCE 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03
    National Hockey League 16549 16486 16591
    Montreal Canadiens 20105 18990 20672
    Detroit Red Wings 19995 20058 20058
    Philadelphia Flyers 19576 19569 19325
    St. Louis Blues 19518 18485 18570
    Toronto Maple Leafs 19255 18338 19240
    Minnesota Wild 18328 18015 18500
    New York Rangers 18200 18039 18148
    Colorado Avalanche 18007 18007 18007
    Buffalo Sabres 17840 16765 13776
    Ottawa Senators 17793 16919 17198
    San Jose Sharks 17468 16994 17350
    Columbus Blue Jackets 17457 18136 17744
    Vancouver Canucks 17017 17713 18396
    Dallas Stars 17001 17628 18532
    Calgary Flames 16623 15719 16239
    Pittsburgh Penguins 16336 14895 14749
    Nashville Predators 15824 14789 13228
    Los Angeles Kings 15813 16314 17569
    New Jersey Devils 15642 15926 14858
    Edmonton Oilers 15612 16539 16657
    Washington Capitals 15534 16493 15787
    Boston Bruins 15433 15404 15029
    Atlanta Thrashers 15263 13368 13476
    Chicago Black Hawks 14997 15569 14749
    Tampa Bay Lightning 14907 15366 16545
    Florida Panthers 14679 16084 15428
    Phoenix Coyotes 14224 13161 13229
    Mighty Ducks of Anaheim 13512 11646 13988
    Carolina Hurricanes 13346 15052 15682
    New York Islanders 11332 14549 14930

    http://www.hockeyresearch.com/mfost...s/nhl_attn.html
     
  10. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    great so if PIT is in fine shape, why are we shutting down the NHL to save them ?

    dr
     
  11. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    great, so if PIT is in fine shape, why shut down the NHL to save them ?

    dr
     
  12. Jaded-Fan

    Jaded-Fan Registered User

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    Did Craig or I bring Pittsburgh into this discussion? The Pens cut back in anticipation of a Cap, and as well ended up with Fleury, Malkin and perhaps Crosby. Craig Patrick is not in the hockey hall of fame for his looks. The Pens are in need of a new arena, new CBA, but as I showed many other teams are in much much worse position. Maybe this is all about saving Chicago who was last on that revenue list? :shakehead . . . . Or maybe the 14 other teams who had worse revenues of late than the Pens. But do not ask us to answer your idiotic question, ask the buffoon above who started this post, we never claimed anything of the kind regarding the Pens, and in fact consistently pointed out the opposite (this is time number five, if not more, for me doing so).
     
  13. FLYLine27*

    FLYLine27* BUCH

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    New York Rangers 18200 18039 18148

    WTF? Ive been to every home Ranger game in the last 3 years and there is no way there average is that high. I would say around 14000,15000. No way there average is that high...that would be selling out almost every game. The only games they sell out are Devil, Isles and Philly games. I guess its possible that the people have the tickets purchased and just didnt show up but thats still a lot of people not showing.
     
  14. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    ok, so lets save CHI. lord knows he has done everything possible to make his franchise viable.

    dr
     
  15. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    Its quite probably they have season tickets and didn't bother appearing because the team was sucking.
     
  16. Jaded-Fan

    Jaded-Fan Registered User

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    I think that I smell a red herring rotting. The question is not 'saving' this team or that team but saving the league. How can a rigged system where some teams can acquire more talent to compete year in year out be called a 'sport'? Example, the Yankees may not win every year, but when was the last time that they did not make the playoffs? The Red Sox? . . . yeah, that is what we need in the NHL. The truth is that no league can survive that kind of competitive imbalance forever.

    In reality those in the cities who have total player salaries a small fraction of those on the 'blessed' cities are the ones who are supporting those rich cities, not the other way around. The fans in the cities with 25 million dollar payrolls pay $40 dollars and more . . . for what? To subsidize those in the Detroits and Colorados of the world so that they can have a league where they can see an all star team compete year in year out and pat themselves on the back for being so brilliant to have a team with a payroll approaching $100 million beat up on teams with payrolls a quarter of that amount. Why not pay to see Mike Tyson beat up a three year old girl and call that a sport too.

    Sports should be seen as analogous to the movies. It is entertainment, and yes, in NY they may pay $15 to see the same movie that I pay $8 to see, but when I go I see the same LOTR movie that they see in NY as it should be. But if the movies were like some of you 'fans' (and I use the term loosely) want, then when I paid my $8 I would see a puppet show instead put on by local high school kids. If the NHL goes the route that you all wish I will take my entertainment dollars elsewhere, as will everyone in all but 4 or 5 markets and you see what kind of 'sport' you have then.
     
  17. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    Last year it was

    http://www.kenn.com/sports/hockey/nhl/nhl_2004_attendance.html

    Rk Team Average
    1 Montreal 20,555
    2 Detroit 20,066
    3 Toronto 19,377
    4 Philadelphia 19,375
    5 Vancouver 18,631
    6 St. Louis 18,560
    7 Minnesota 18,531
    8 Dallas 18,355
    9 NY Rangers 18,081
    10 Colorado 18,007
    11 Los Angeles 17,877
    12 Tampa Bay 17,820
    13 Ottawa 17,759
    14 Edmonton 17,678
    15 Columbus 17,369
    16 Calgary 16,580
    17 Florida 15,936
    18 San Jose 15,836
    19 Phoenix 15,469
    20 Buffalo 15,290
    21 Boston 15,133
    22 Atlanta 15,121
    23 New Jersey 15,060
    24 Anaheim 14,987
    25 Washington 14,720
    26 NY Islanders 13,456
    27 Chicago 13,253
    28 Nashville 13,157
    29 Carolina 12,086
    30 Pittsburgh 11,877

    I want to see the Penguins live and be healthy. They have dedicated fans, they'll come back as soon as the team is winning (much like most teams) and hit 16,000+ without a doubt. I can't blame them for now showing up last year, the team was terrible. As your numbers showed, give them a reason and they'll be back.
     
  18. Steve Latin*

    Steve Latin* Guest

    I like the sounds of this... a lot! Somebody get Don King on the horn ASAP.

    S L
     
  19. SwisshockeyAcademy

    SwisshockeyAcademy Registered User

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    I identify strongly with this post.Its not about the players or owners but what is best for the sport.I am not happy with the owners on their lack of revenue sharing in the latest proposal. No share- no cap.
     
  20. Sp5618

    Sp5618 Registered User

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    What I find scariest about this list is the fact that Boston and Chicago are on the bottom half. You would expect the 'Yotes and Panthers to be there, but two superbly situated teams with regard to market size, tradition, history, and previous eras of sold out arenas year after year.... :(
     
  21. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    yup, and BOS and CHI are two of the biggest supporters of the players tieing their salary to revenues.

    BOS and CHI are examples of why the NHLPA wants nothing to do with the NHL offer.

    dr
     
  22. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    If the Pittsburgh Penguins or any team needs a bunch of revenue sharing preconditions to survive, I wonder why anybody should even try to save them. Why should the economically viable teams give up their hard earned money to pay for a bad businesses? What incentive would there be to build a good business? 'Gee whiz, I spent half a billion dollars for a brand new arena, but instead of reaping the rewards and putting increased revenue back into my on ice product, I have to foot the bill for some bush league operation in Pittsburgh or some bs team in the tropics.' And would it be fair to fans of successful teams? Ok, I can pay $200 for a ticket to a Leafs game and pay truckloads of money for parking and beer, but instead of seeing my team actually use that money to improve the team, I'll be forced to watch the Leafs revenue go to foot the bill for some other mediocre team in Pennsylvania. Is that fair?

    Nobody's forcing Pittsburgh to spend $34 million. If they can't do it, don't expect other people to pay your way.
     
  23. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    hi, how are you ?

    you might want to brush up on the NHL proposal that requires every team to have a payroll between 51% and 57% of league revenues.

    dr
     
  24. SENSible1*

    SENSible1* Guest

    Bos and Chi decided to pull their chips off the table until they got a different dealer.

    Smart move.

    Once they get the new CBA, they'll be back in business in a big way.
     
  25. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    great ! how do we gurantee that Wirtz sells local TV rights ?

    shouldnt the players be allowed demand that since their pay is tied to the teams abilities to generate revenue ?

    dr
     
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