Confirmed with Link: [TOR/PIT] Frank Corrado for Eric Fehr, Steve Oleksy, 4th round pick 17

Jack Bauer

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May 30, 2007
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The value of a 2nd. certainly deflated as soon at they used it for Boyle. Now it's just a 2nd. and maybe we can re-sign him as UFA in the summer, whereas other teams could just sign him without throwing some worthless 2nd. rounder away.

:D

If he does re-sign then a 2nd isn't a bad price.

If we make the playoffs he could be a valuable piece to have.

The weak draft and having numerous picks helped make the decision an easy one for Lou. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as I agree on the point that our kids gain to learn a lot from a playoff run even if they don't make it so giving them a bit of a mental jump in adding someone might only help.

The cost isn't nothing but is a piece we can afford because of how we handled the last few deadlines.

When we stockpiled picks we all knew it was to eventually start moving them out for vets as much as it was to use them to stock the system. We just didn't think the system would be this good this quickly.
 

Jack Bauer

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May 30, 2007
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It's not without merit. We have $17M before the overage penalty kicks in. Most estimates are between $4 and $5M for that penalty. So let's say $12.5 remaining to sign 8 players.

If you get lucky and re-sign Zaitsev, Brown and Hyman for $8M that leaves you $4.5M to sign 2F, 2D and 1 BG.


The extra 2 million would have come in handy.

Who are you losing to Vegas? Do you have a trade market for any existing vets?

There's many variables that will effect our cap number come July.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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If he does re-sign then a 2nd isn't a bad price.

If we make the playoffs he could be a valuable piece to have.

The weak draft and having numerous picks helped make the decision an easy one for Lou. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as I agree on the point that our kids gain to learn a lot from a playoff run even if they don't make it so giving them a bit of a mental jump in adding someone might only help.

The cost isn't nothing but is a piece we can afford because of how we handled the last few deadlines.

When we stockpiled picks we all knew it was to eventually start moving them out for vets as much as it was to use them to stock the system. We just didn't think the system would be this good this quickly.

This is true. Either way, it's really not that big a deal. I'm fine with the trade, I'd also have been fine with not making the trade. Not much has changed as far as I can tell - we still have a bunch of picks in the upcoming draft, we still have bunch of picks in next years draft, we still have a prospect pool that's pretty well stocked so what's the big deal?

Like they said before, it's a long range plan that changes every day. I think that can be interpreted as saying the goal remains the same and the long term strategy stays the same but the short term tactics are decided on a day to day basis.
 

Jack Bauer

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May 30, 2007
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This is true. Either way, it's really not that big a deal. I'm fine with the trade, I'd also have been fine with not making the trade. Not much has changed as far as I can tell - we still have a bunch of picks in the upcoming draft, we still have bunch of picks in next years draft, we still have a prospect pool that's pretty well stocked so what's the big deal?

Like they said before, it's a long range plan that changes every day. I think that can be interpreted as saying the goal remains the same and the long term strategy stays the same but the short term tactics are decided on a day to day basis.

Much easier to stomach losing a mid 2nd when you bring in a late 4th in another deal. 70-80 spots at a point in the draft where there's huge ranged of opinion on who should go where.

And bringing in a person who as a person every single hockey person says is the ideal fit for this group. We didn't acquire an Alex Burrows ******* level hockey player here. Boyle is a good example for our kids to learn from.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Much easier to stomach losing a mid 2nd when you bring in a late 4th in another deal. 70-80 spots at a point in the draft where there's huge ranged of opinion on who should go where.

And bringing in a person who as a person every single hockey person says is the ideal fit for this group. We didn't acquire an Alex Burrows ******* level hockey player here. Boyle is a good example for our kids to learn from.

I agree. I was very happy to see us get a 4th!
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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It's 1 more year at $2 mill, for another draft ticket.

I'd hardly call that an "unnecessary constraint".

The other buried money they have all comes off the books this year, too. That's almost $8 million in cap relief they are getting.

Bit ridiculous to suggest what you are suggesting, to be honest.

Not really - folks were talking about the Leafs having closer to 20 million in cap space this offseason, with this move plus the fact the Leafs ELC bonuses are being carried over to next year. Depending what happens July 1st that free cap space number is going to get smaller and smaller.

It's not an issue today, but each move like this can become exacerbated if management makes other mistakes.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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If he does re-sign then a 2nd isn't a bad price.

If we make the playoffs he could be a valuable piece to have.

The weak draft and having numerous picks helped make the decision an easy one for Lou. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as I agree on the point that our kids gain to learn a lot from a playoff run even if they don't make it so giving them a bit of a mental jump in adding someone might only help.

The cost isn't nothing but is a piece we can afford because of how we handled the last few deadlines.

When we stockpiled picks we all knew it was to eventually start moving them out for vets as much as it was to use them to stock the system. We just didn't think the system would be this good this quickly.

It's a gamble.

I like the move (at present) because Boyle is a considerable upgrade on any other 4C option the Leafs have, and he can help in their playoff push and he'd be worthy resigning on a 1-2 year deal in the offseason.

This trade looks ugly though if the Leafs miss the playoffs - and he walks in the offseason.

Just have to wait and see if Lou's judgement was correct
 

Jack Bauer

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May 30, 2007
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It's a gamble.

I like the move (at present) because Boyle is a considerable upgrade on any other 4C option the Leafs have, and he can help in their playoff push and he'd be worthy resigning on a 1-2 year deal in the offseason.

This trade looks ugly though if the Leafs miss the playoffs - and he walks in the offseason.

Just have to wait and see if Lou's judgement was correct

A very small gamble with minimal loss when combined with the Fehr/Corrado move.

I'm on board with those kinds of gambles early in a rebuild. If it was a deep draft and we traded our only 2nd I wouldn't be quite as optimistic.

Even missing the playoffs this can turn out ok for us if Boyle is excited about our group and wants to stay.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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A very small gamble with minimal loss when combined with the Fehr/Corrado move.

I'm on board with those kinds of gambles early in a rebuild. If it was a deep draft and we traded our only 2nd I wouldn't be quite as optimistic.

Even missing the playoffs this can turn out ok for us if Boyle is excited about our group and wants to stay.

Losing a 2nd for essentially nothing is a pretty bad move for any GM. Lou will deserve criticism if that's the case.

If he resigns then it wouldn't be as bad - but let's face it, this move was about one thing - the playoffs - and that's how we should evaluate it.
 

Jack Bauer

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Losing a 2nd for essentially nothing is a pretty bad move for any GM. Lou will deserve criticism if that's the case.

If he resigns then it wouldn't be as bad - but let's face it, this move was about one thing - the playoffs - and that's how we should evaluate it.

In managements eyes they downgraded a 2nd to a 4th and both transactions are essentially 1.

Any criticism they get for losing a 2nd they make up in praise for acquiring a 4th.

Lou is the same guy who got 2 2nd's for Polak 12 months ago. Polak is here and so are both of those picks. In fact having the extras is why we viewed oursevles as able to take this small gamble.

I won't lose sleep over it because we have many other picks and have a system full of good prospects. Feel free to criticize. Just know that no matter what happens short of a parade will result in criticism here no matter what.
 

White Shadow

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Jan 7, 2016
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Who are you losing to Vegas? Do you have a trade market for any existing vets?

There's many variables that will effect our cap number come July.

We most likely lose Marincin or Marchenko to Vegas, but you have to replace them. Considering their cap hit is already less than $1.5M, you can't really count on any savings there either. Minimal at best.

If you're having to make trades to free up cap space, do you not have a cap issue?

Not too mention, we are guaranteed to go over the cap again next season, meaning we get another overage penalty for 2018/19.
 

JonnyMacAwesome

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Jan 27, 2016
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We most likely lose Marincin or Marchenko to Vegas, but you have to replace them. Considering their cap hit is already less than $1.5M, you can't really count on any savings there either. Minimal at best.

If you're having to make trades to free up cap space, do you not have a cap issue?

Not too mention, we are guaranteed to go over the cap again next season, meaning we get another overage penalty for 2018/19.

How are we guaranteed to go over the cap again next season? We have a lot coming off the books at the end of this one. I'm sure we'll be fine.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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In managements eyes they downgraded a 2nd to a 4th and both transactions are essentially 1.

Any criticism they get for losing a 2nd they make up in praise for acquiring a 4th.

Lou is the same guy who got 2 2nd's for Polak 12 months ago. Polak is here and so are both of those picks. In fact having the extras is why we viewed oursevles as able to take this small gamble.

I won't lose sleep over it because we have many other picks and have a system full of good prospects. Feel free to criticize. Just know that no matter what happens short of a parade will result in criticism here no matter what.

Those are to separate transactions (and each worthy of their own criticism). They got that 4th for taking 2 million in cap.

People should be critical when management makes bad decisions - you'd think the past decade of horrid decisions by the Leafs should have thought us people aren't infallible and make mistakes.

Like mentioned earlier - for the moment I like the Boyle trade, depending on how things fair though this could be end up in Lou's mistake column.
 

White Shadow

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How are we guaranteed to go over the cap again next season? We have a lot coming off the books at the end of this one. I'm sure we'll be fine.

Because next season we incur a penalty of roughly $4 - $5M for going over this year's cap. Marner, Matthews, Sosh, Nylander have already hit bonuses with more to come and these get applied after the season.

Matthews and Marner are both going to hit their performance bonuses again next season barring injury. That will put us over the cap again.
 

Jack Bauer

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Those are to separate transactions (and each worthy of their own criticism). They got that 4th for taking 2 million in cap.

People should be critical when management makes bad decisions - you'd think the past decade of horrid decisions by the Leafs should have thought us people aren't infallible and make mistakes.

Like mentioned earlier - for the moment I like the Boyle trade, depending on how things fair though this could be end up in Lou's mistake column.

Finishing 30th overall and tanking to do so was an awful decision. Could have ended up picking 4th in the lottery. Sometimes you take calculated risks that you hope pay off.

You'll never hit 100% of them but you also won't lose them all either. A part of winning is taking a shot at an unknown.

Look at what Pittsburgh went through on their way to winning in 09. Many veterans came and went before they found the right core to compliment the youth.

This really isn't that bad of a decision. If it's a mistake it's an extremely minor one and if it's all we have to nit pick about in 3 or 4 years time then Lou might be the best GM in the league over that time.
 

Jack Bauer

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Because next season we incur a penalty of roughly $4 - $5M for going over this year's cap. Marner, Matthews, Sosh, Nylander have already hit bonuses with more to come and these get applied after the season.

Matthews and Marner are both going to hit their performance bonuses again next season barring injury. That will put us over the cap again.

And i'm sure management has never once looked at it and talked out a plan for being cap compliant while still being able to add talent over that time.

Clearly they have different plans for their cap space then you or I think they do and are making moves as such.

They've certainly seemed to have a clue up to this point so the fact that i'm watching Matthews, Marner and Nylander play as Leafs tonight means Shanny's team has earned the benefit of all of our doubt.
 

White Shadow

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Jan 7, 2016
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And i'm sure management has never once looked at it and talked out a plan for being cap compliant while still being able to add talent over that time.

Clearly they have different plans for their cap space then you or I think they do and are making moves as such.

They've certainly seemed to have a clue up to this point so the fact that i'm watching Matthews, Marner and Nylander play as Leafs tonight means Shanny's team has earned the benefit of all of our doubt.

I would think so too. Part of me is wondering if Pridham has something up his sleeve that none of us are aware. I sure hope so.

The point is, to say we have tonnes of cap space and no issues whatsoever is just wrong.
 

Jack Bauer

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We most likely lose Marincin or Marchenko to Vegas, but you have to replace them. Considering their cap hit is already less than $1.5M, you can't really count on any savings there either. Minimal at best.

If you're having to make trades to free up cap space, do you not have a cap issue?

Not too mention, we are guaranteed to go over the cap again next season, meaning we get another overage penalty for 2018/19.

No, I don't think making trades to free up space means you have a cap issue.

Having players you can't trade to free up space means you have a cap issue.

We don't have an untradeable player on the roster in my opinion. So I fail to see any cap issue.

I'm more then confident that we have a plan for our cap and are following the plan.
 

Jack Bauer

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May 30, 2007
6,154
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Cape Breton
I would think so too. Part of me is wondering if Pridham has something up his sleeve that none of us are aware. I sure hope so.

The point is, to say we have tonnes of cap space and no issues whatsoever is just wrong.

You don't need to have a ton of space to have no issues.

We don't have any anchors. We have a ton of youth. We have no veterans looking to set any precedents with new deals.

Our cap situation is fine. Of course there will be change over time as the young become the vets and the vets get replaced with new youth. That's the point of a rebuild. We're still in year 1 with all these new players playing together. There's tons of time to mold this into what we want it to be.
 

Holymakinaw

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May 22, 2007
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Because next season we incur a penalty of roughly $4 - $5M for going over this year's cap. Marner, Matthews, Sosh, Nylander have already hit bonuses with more to come and these get applied after the season.

Matthews and Marner are both going to hit their performance bonuses again next season barring injury. That will put us over the cap again.

But we're not going over this year's cap. Even with every bonus hit, we're about 250K under.
 

White Shadow

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Jan 7, 2016
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You don't need to have a ton of space to have no issues.

We don't have any anchors. We have a ton of youth. We have no veterans looking to set any precedents with new deals.

Our cap situation is fine. Of course there will be change over time as the young become the vets and the vets get replaced with new youth. That's the point of a rebuild. We're still in year 1 with all these new players playing together. There's tons of time to mold this into what we want it to be.

It sometimes helps to see it in front of you:

Current space available for 2017/18: $17.2M
Subtract overage of approx $4.6M = $12.6M

Re-sign Zaitsev, Brown and Hyman for $8M (this is a conservative amount) = $4.6M

Lose one of Marincin or Marchenko to Vegas = $6M

Sign a backup goalie for $1M = $5M

Replace Boyle and Smith with Kapanen and Gauthier * $.86M each = $3.3M

Replace Polak, Hunwick and Marincin/Marchenko with 1 Marlie and 2 UFAs and you're right up against the cap.

Now apply the performance bonuses for Marner, Nylander, Sosh and Matthews and you're over the cap again paying another overage penalty in 2018/19.
 

4thline

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Jul 18, 2014
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Waterloo
Because next season we incur a penalty of roughly $4 - $5M for going over this year's cap. Marner, Matthews, Sosh, Nylander have already hit bonuses with more to come and these get applied after the season.

Matthews and Marner are both going to hit their performance bonuses again next season barring injury. That will put us over the cap again.

Has there been anything published about which bonuses are actually on all their contracts? We have no idea how high the various Schedule A/B thresholds are set
 

Jack Bauer

Registered User
May 30, 2007
6,154
743
Cape Breton
It sometimes helps to see it in front of you:

Current space available for 2017/18: $17.2M
Subtract overage of approx $4.6M = $12.6M

Re-sign Zaitsev, Brown and Hyman for $8M (this is a conservative amount) = $4.6M

Lose one of Marincin or Marchenko to Vegas = $6M

Sign a backup goalie for $1M = $5M

Replace Boyle and Smith with Kapanen and Gauthier * $.86M each = $3.3M

Replace Polak, Hunwick and Marincin/Marchenko with 1 Marlie and 2 UFAs and you're right up against the cap.

Now apply the performance bonuses for Marner, Nylander, Sosh and Matthews and you're over the cap again paying another overage penalty in 2018/19.

I can do math.

What if we decide to move Bozak and JVR?

Or Kadri or Gardiner.

We have players who make money who can be traded. So worrying about Polak and Hunwick and replacing UFA's is pointless when we have no clue who management intends on moving forward with after this year.

You're trying to ice a 17-18 roster without knowing the next 7 months of changes first.

Take a step back and enjoy the actual meaningful games we are playing. That stuff will take care of itself after the season.
 

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