Proposal: TOR-MTL (Weber)

[Randy Randerson]

I agree with you on next year determining a lot. He will have a lot of time to get himself healthy this offseason and we'll see how he looks come October. There are concerns, rightfully, but that doesn't mean the Habs should be selling low on a guy who with a broken foot still looked like a #1D this year when he played and whose cap hit is not an issue, even long term. I guess it's not the right time for speculating his trade possibilities.

agree that you shouldn't deal him now. There's a good chance that a team that's peaking and looking to extend it's contention window would make a move on him at the end of next year, that's just willing to live with the contract being bad for a while if they get 2 good years out of him. Washington might be a candidate if Carlson goes

don't think that Toronto or a team in Toronto's phase of building towards contention is a likely landing spot because we'll want our window to be open for quite a while

 

[Captain Mountain]

I didn't make any offers, just honest perspective from a fan of a team that needs a top pair RHD. I think you'll be disappointed with what you get back if you deal Weber and I don't see a realistic scenerio that MTL fills its holes enough to compete while he's still good. Seems like a rock & a hard place scenario

I'm certainly not expecting a kings ransom for him, but a 2nd + a secondary prospect is pretty crazy too. Montreal doesn't have to trade him. And if a trade doesn't make sense to Montreal, they shouldn't.

 

[firstemperor]

Most aren't offering any significant assets, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Ignore the significant assets portion of that post (as that is subject to contention) and that was the point- that his contract presents some concerns. Seems like the majority of Hab posters here side with Bergevin's hypothesis that this team simply needs a minor retool to be competitive by next year - so defeats the purpose of potential returns to be discussed.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Ignore the significant assets portion of that post (as that is subject to contention) and that was the point- that his contract presents some concerns. Seems like the majority of Hab posters here side with Bergevin's hypothesis that this team simply needs a minor retool to be competitive by next year - so defeats the purpose of potential returns to be discussed.

I'm not criticizing others for being wary of acquiring Weber or not wanting their team to acquire Weber, I'm criticizing others for making unrealistic lowball proposals that make no sense for Montreal in the present and the future.

And what Habs fans think doesn't matter, Bergevin has been clear that he's retooling, not rebuilding.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I'm certainly not expecting a kings ransom for him, but a 2nd + a secondary prospect is pretty crazy too. Montreal doesn't have to trade him. And if a trade doesn't make sense to Montreal, they shouldn't.

I think if you're going to trade him, its in a scenario where a mature team is looking to extend it's compete window and is willing to bite the bullet if they get a couple of good years, but I think that market will also be limited

I do think you'll be fairly disappointed on the return though. With no retention, I wouldn't trade Matt Martin for him to get him on the Leafs, and that's much less about the player that Weber is and much more about the potential dead cap through the prime of our own compete window. I just have no interest in trying to navigate that, and I think you'll find the same sentiment from every team that has a similar age core to the Leafs (or at least the ones that are reasonably good - Wpg, Edm, Fla, NJ, Phi, Cbj, etc)

I also think that the teams who would have interest in Weber won't see it as critical, and having you guys hold on to him also keeps him off of the rosters of their potential playoff matchups, so you guys holding him is sort of a win for the potential acquiring teams

so its not that anyone is trying to disrespect Weber or the Habs, its that his age/contract combo make his market very limited and the risk of a long term albatross contract make it necessary for potential suitors to get him at a "bargain" price to justify the risk. I could be wrong, that's just how I see it shaking out

 

[CDN24]

Kinda of a pointless thread - most of these are by the 10th page. ultimately the Leafs are much closer to competing than the Habs. They need a Weber type D-man. Great defensively- big shot and can intimidate people. Remember his biggest fan in international competition - Mike Babcock. Do the Habs feel a pressing need to move him for marginal or minimal return? No, they are not up against the cap and finishing 29th overall or was it 28th means they are not competing for a cup anytime soon.

Only way the Habs move him is if they get a Kings ransom back- will need to be a Marner/Nylander type. A firts round pick from a contender is not worth that much.

Do the Leafs need Weber- no but they need someone like him- an impact D-man. I don't see that d-man in their roster or in their prospect pool. Yeah they have some good ones but nothing in Weber's category.

Montreal does not need to move him before he declines- only 4 more years paid $6M. After that there will be plenty of teams looking to get to the cap floor. Webers 7.9M hit with $1M salary is getting Eugene in Ottawa excited already.

 

[MapleLeafistan]

No.

 

[Critical13]

replace brown/kapanen with nylander/marner and you have the value but still dont see habs doing it, because whats the point of being loaded up front with D that totally sucks? you end up getting swept first round by Boston, although maybe with Price its possible to advance a little farther.

lol

 

[MapleLeafistan]

replace brown/kapanen with nylander/marner and you have the value but still dont see habs doing it, because whats the point of being loaded up front with D that totally sucks? you end up getting swept first round by Boston, although maybe with Price its possible to advance a little farther.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I think if you're going to trade him, its in a scenario where a mature team is looking to extend it's compete window and is willing to bite the bullet if they get a couple of good years, but I think that market will also be limited

I do think you'll be fairly disappointed on the return though. With no retention, I wouldn't trade Matt Martin for him to get him on the Leafs, and that's much less about the player that Weber is and much more about the potential dead cap through the prime of our own compete window. I just have no interest in trying to navigate that, and I think you'll find the same sentiment from every team that has a similar age core to the Leafs (or at least the ones that are reasonably good - Wpg, Edm, Fla, NJ, Phi, Cbj, etc)

I also think that the teams who would have interest in Weber won't see it as critical, and having you guys hold on to him also keeps him off of the rosters of their potential playoff matchups, so you guys holding him is sort of a win for the potential acquiring teams

so its not that anyone is trying to disrespect Weber or the Habs, its that his age/contract combo make his market very limited and the risk of a long term albatross contract make it necessary for potential suitors to get him at a "bargain" price to justify the risk. I could be wrong, that's just how I see it shaking out

I think your missing my point. Unless the offer is good, or at least makes sense to Montreal, they aren't going trade him. That's a big part of the "if they trade him".

 

[Brock Radunske]

I just don't understand why people don't seem to think that Montreal (or any team that isn't Nasvhille) won't use Weber's textbook cap circumventing contract to circumvent the cap issues in later years. Nasvhille is the only team that needs to worry about cap recapture. At what point did people go from "that's a high price, but a clever way to bring the cap hit down, zero way he'll play through the entire contract" to "Ugh, that contract sucks, he'll definitely not be worth it by the end"?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I'm not concerned about recapture. I'm worried about paying a guy who isn't fleet of foot at 30yrs 8 million a year when he is 40yrs.
No sane Gm would pay top dollar based on the assumption that a player retires before their contract is up.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I think your missing my point. Unless the offer is good, or at least makes sense to Montreal, they aren't going trade him. That's a big part of the "if they trade him".

I get your point, I think there's an extremely good chance that Weber retires a Hab

I think that's bad for the Habs though

 

[Pi]

I get your point, I think there's an extremely good chance that Weber retires a Hab

I think that's bad for the Habs though

Wouldn't that be bad for the Preds? They are on the hook for his cap recapture. If he retires with the Habs, it will be bad because they likely can't build a team that will win with Weber as he gets old but won't have to face cap repercussions.

 

[4thline]

And what Habs fans think doesn't matter, Bergevin has been clear that he's retooling, not rebuilding.

As someone with no emotional attachment to the Canadiens this is going to be a super interesting off-season to watch. There's pieces there for a skilled management group to put together a solid playoff team for the next 3-5 years then tear it down.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Wouldn't that be bad for the Preds? They are on the hook for his cap recapture. If he retires with the Habs, it will be bad because they likely can't build a team that will win with Weber as he gets old but won't have to face cap repercussions.

I meant that not getting anything for Weber isn't good for the Habs, under the assumption that they're not going to be a playoff team for a while

Also didn't mean that he'd necessarily retire early either, just that the Habs might not find a dance partner if their return expectations are high

 

[Pi]

I meant that not getting anything for Weber isn't good for the Habs, under the assumption that they're not going to be a playoff team for a while

Also didn't mean that he'd necessarily retire early either, just that the Habs might not find a dance partner if their return expectations are high

Bergevin won't trade Weber. It will mean having to admit that he made a big mistake in trading Subban. It's an ego thing.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I'm not concerned about recapture. I'm worried about paying a guy who isn't fleet of foot at 30yrs 8 million a year when he is 40yrs.
No sane Gm would pay top dollar based on the assumption that a player retires before their contract is up.

You'd be paying him 1 million a year, not 8. If Weber isn't close to being worth it, doesn't want to retire, is healthy enough to play AND Montreal needs the cap space, Montreal can waive him and let him ride the bus in Laval or encourage him to retire with other incentives.

And my point isn't what you're worried about, but what Montreal is worried about. And they aren't going to be close to worried enough about it to move him for a 2nd and a mediocre prospect.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I get your point, I think there's an extremely good chance that Weber retires a Hab

I think that's bad for the Habs though

We'll see, but I suspect its not going to be as big a deal as other fans seem to think. Much like the Leaf's were screwed contract and cap-wise until they suddenly weren't.

 

[Captain Mountain]

As someone with no emotional attachment to the Canadiens this is going to be a super interesting off-season to watch. There's pieces there for a skilled management group to put together a solid playoff team for the next 3-5 years then tear it down.

The question being: Has the decidedly not skilled management group learned anything from their past mistakes?

 

[Brock Radunske]

You'd be paying him 1 million a year, not 8. If Weber isn't close to being worth it, doesn't want to retire, is healthy enough to play AND Montreal needs the cap space, Montreal can waive him and let him ride the bus in Laval or encourage him to retire with other incentives.

And my point isn't what you're worried about, but what Montreal is worried about. And they aren't going to be close to worried enough about it to move him for a 2nd and a mediocre prospect.

Ah, I see what you're saying.
I'll agree that he could have a lot of value to an internal cap team but I guess from the perspective of a team looking to compete now, where cap (not salary) is important, he wouldn't have really have much value long term.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Ah, I see what you're saying.
I'll agree that he could have a lot of value to an internal cap team but I guess from the perspective of a team looking to compete now, where cap (not salary) is important, he wouldn't have really have much value long term.

Kinda, my point is more that Montreal isn't going to trade him just to trade him. There has to be an actual benefit to the team. And because of Montreal's lack of present cap space needs, Weber's status as a #1D presently and the ways a team like Montreal can manage his cap hit in the future, clearing his cap-space isn't really one.

 

[firstemperor]

And what Habs fans think doesn't matter, Bergevin has been clear that he's retooling, not rebuilding.

True for everything discussed on here though, and Bergevin doesn't exactly inspire credibility.

As someone with no emotional attachment to the Canadiens this is going to be a super interesting off-season to watch. There's pieces there for a skilled management group to put together a solid playoff team for the next 3-5 years then tear it down.

It'll be interesting, don't know if they have the core pieces or pipeline to replenish like the Bruins model, which is mostly a one-off more than anything. Bergeron and Marchand are absolutely elite, world class players, Timmins hasn't hit on a player like McAvoy/Pasta and the laundry list of other depth guys in their system in a long time.

Can't really fault the Habs for rolling with what they have though. It's hard to turn back after the Price/Subban-Weber deals.

 

[Randy Randerson]

We'll see, but I suspect its not going to be as big a deal as other fans seem to think. Much like the Leaf's were screwed contract and cap-wise until they suddenly weren't.

we got un-screwed by taking underwhelming returns though, I'm sure that option will be available for you guys too

Bergevin won't trade Weber. It will mean having to admit that he made a big mistake in trading Subban. It's an ego thing.

as an anti-Habs pundit, I am very pro-Bergevin

 

[Brock Radunske]

Kinda, my point is more that Montreal isn't going to trade him just to trade him. There has to be an actual benefit to the team. And because of Montreal's lack of present cap space needs, Weber's status as a #1D presently and the ways a team like Montreal can manage his cap hit in the future, clearing his cap-space isn't really one.

Fair enough. I've just been thinking of this from a Leafs perspective and I just don't think there is a trade that would make sense
.

 

[Captain Mountain]

we got un-screwed by taking underwhelming returns though, I'm sure that option will be available for you guys too


as an anti-Habs pundit, I am very pro-Bergevin

You got unscrewed by using your deep pockets to get rid of Clarkson and LTIR Horton, building Robidas Island and suckering Ottawa into taking Phaneuf (who was already lousy). The only underwhelming return move was moving Kessel to Pittsburgh, but that seemed more like a trade to reset the culture and optimize tanking than clearing cap space.