Top Hockey Towns

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by regehr, Mar 1, 2005.

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  1. regehr

    regehr Registered User

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    I did a composite ranking of revenues and attendance (averaged over the past 4 years) - I think this is a pretty good proxy for the top hockey towns:

    1. Toronto
    1. Philadelphia
    3. Detroit
    3. NY Rangers
    5. Montreal
    6. Dallas
    7. Colorado
    8. Minnesota
    9. Vancouver
    10. St. Louis
    11. Los Angeles
    11. San Jose
    13. Tampa Bay
    13. Ottawa
    15. Columbus
    16. Boston
    17. Calgary
    18. Chicago
    19. Edmonton
    19. New Jersey
    ---------------------- Above is what a 20-team league might look like
    21. Washington
    22. Florida
    23. Buffalo
    24. Atlanta
    ---------------------- Above is what a 24-team league might look like
    24. NY Islanders
    26. Pittsburgh
    26. Nashville
    28. Phoenix
    29. Carolina
    30. Anaheim
     
  2. regehr

    regehr Registered User

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    Given the above, a 24-team league might look like:

    EAST
    Northeast
    Toronto
    Montreal
    Ottawa
    Buffalo

    Atlantic
    Philadelphia
    NY Rangers
    Boston
    New Jersey

    Southeast
    Tampa Bay
    Washington
    Florida
    Atlanta

    WEST
    Central
    Detroit
    St. Louis
    Columbus
    Chicago

    Pacific
    Dallas
    Vancouver
    Los Angeles
    San Jose

    MidWest
    Colorado
    Minnesota
    Calgary
    Edmonton
     
  3. regehr

    regehr Registered User

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    Given the above, this is what a 20-teague might look like:

    EAST
    Northeast
    Toronto
    Detroit
    Montreal
    Ottawa
    Columbus

    Atlantic
    Philadelphia
    NY Rangers
    Tampa Bay
    Boston
    New Jersey

    WEST
    Central
    Dallas
    Colorado
    Minnesota
    St. Louis
    Chicago

    Pacific
    Vancouver
    Los Angeles
    San Jose
    Calgary
    Edmonton
     
  4. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    I'd still rank the the Pengs and Isles above Florida & Altanta (I realise yours is objective rankings). Looks about right, give or take the odd subjective tweaking.
     
  5. JFPIV

    JFPIV Registered User

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    Nice work, Regher.

    One question. If you knock out last year's cup run, what does that do to Tampa's numbers?
     
  6. PartizaN

    PartizaN Registered User

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    You would be crazy to eliminate the Islanders. Can someone tell me what the only team in the U.S. to win 3 or more cups in a row? The Islanders. The fans on Long Island are very passionate. Huge Fan base as well.

    11. Los Angeles
    15. Columbus
    17. Calgary
    18. Chicago
    19. Edmonton

    Those teams deserve to be there? Chicago? Calgary? Because they had 1 fluke Stanley Cup run. Please.
     
  7. canes-sth

    canes-sth Registered User

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    I've lurked here for quite some time, but recently registered to answer a Canes specific question.

    Anyway, I'm very entertained at the preoccupation of contraction discussions that occur over and over here.

    I don't doubt that there is some generally agreed upon 'best hockey town' list. The top half will largely stay the same regardless of what snapshot is used. The middle and bottom would probably change to some extent over different periods of time.

    Anyway, for those that would like to see a 24 team NHL or a 20 team NHL.... Would the perceived "increase in talent" draw enough fans to the game (I presume we're talking general interest and viewership) to counter the tens of thousands (100s?) that lose their teams? How is this better for the NHL?

    The cities at the bottom of that list are either cities that have a history of hockey, but have gone thru recent pain (Buffalo, Pitt) or are new cities that are seeing the hockey interest just begin to grow at the grass roots which should pay off as the fanbase gets more mature (Atl, Carolina). I'm just not sure how removing up to 1/3rd of your franchises is better for the game. Anyone?

    Thanks.
     
  8. NYIsles1*

    NYIsles1* Guest

    The Nassau Coliseum has a management company that takes parking, concessions and a reported eleven percent of ticket revenue from the team. The lease and this contract with Smg run until 2014-2015. The television contract nets them 300m until 2030. Supposedly the upcoming renovation will give the Isles more revenue streams from the building as part of a negotiation to extend the Smg lease until 2025.

    Regarding your numbers, lot's of padded attendance numbers in those figures (Msg) also no true source of what a teams real revenue is each year for the last four years unless Forbes estimate was your source.

    The NY Post today wrote a story on team revenue, it not in the article but the graph in the article claims the following team revenue and contradicts Forbes.

    Toronto 117.3m
    Dallas 96.8
    Detroit 93.9
    Colorado 93.6
    Philadelphia 89.8
    Rangers 85.3
    Montreal 84.4

    What's significant is Brooks numbers are different in terms of what revenue teams are making, he claims these were the league reported revenue's in a recent offer, which contradicts the Forbes estimated number, especially on the Rangers by over 33m..

    One other thing, what's going to happen to revenue in some of these markets when they can no longer buy their way out of a bad season and are locked into a 40m payroll or less?

    They may profit more with lower payroll but overall revenue will decrease.

    http://www.nypost.com/sports/40560.htm
    SHARING THE CRUMBS

    The Post has obtained the heretofore confidential Feb. 9 NHL revenue sharing model, presented to the PA in Toronto as part of the league's "compromise trigger" proposal.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2005
  9. Charge_Seven

    Charge_Seven Registered User

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    I'm with you, the Isles are an important part of hockey history, and future. Good team, good fans. Maybe you could just contract Milbury from hockey.

    I love seeing Columbus on the list though.
     
  10. CMUMike

    CMUMike Registered User

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    I'd like to address the misconception that Pittsburgh is one of the worst hockey markets in the US.

    Looking at attendance figures over the past 20 years, the Penguins have achieved the following results (as a % Capacity)

    3 Years - 83%
    5 Years - 88%
    10 Years - 89%
    15 Years - 91%
    20 Years - 90%

    In the same time span, the # of High School programs has doubled in size and youth hockey programs have seen similar (more likely exceeding 2X) growth.

    Last year was a bad year attendance wise, there are no questions about it. However, the Penguins had the worst team in the league by far. Despite that fact, the home season ended with a sellout and standing ovation for the team.

    The Penguins have seiezed these measures of popularity while operating in the 51st largest market in the US.

    I'm certainly not implying that Pittsburgh is up there with the Toronto's and Detroit's of the world, but I'm getting a little tired of people just tossing the Penguins aside as one of the teams that should be contracted. There is a good hockey base in Pittsburgh and based on the growth of the youth programs, we can project an increase in that base as time goes on.

    The bottom line is that none of the 30 cities deserve to lose their teams.
     
  11. The New NHL

    Divisions:

    Adams:

    Boston
    Montreal
    Buffalo
    Hartford (Carolina)
    Toronto
    Quebec (Pittsburgh)

    Patrick:

    Philly
    NJ
    NYI
    NYR
    Columbus
    Hamilton (Washington)

    Norris

    Detroit
    Chicago
    Ottawa
    Minnesota
    St. Louis


    Smythe

    Winnipeg (Phoenix)
    Edmonton
    Vancouver
    Calgary
    Colorado
     
  12. Old Hickory

    Old Hickory Guest

    Why are people so obsessed with Eliminating Los Angeles? You do realize they have been in the NHL since 1967? Every year they are in the top 12 in attendance and revenue.
    In this model you are eliminating stable anchor franchises and moving teams back to places like Winnepeg that couldn't support a team when they had one. The same applies to SJ, high revenues and attendance. Yet you want to take these franchises away

    Explain to me why you eliminate LA and SJ, yet you allow franchises with less revenue and lower attendance to remain.
    From your list Columbus, Ottawa, Calgary, Boston, Chicago, NJ, and
    Buffalo all have lower revenues and attendance than LA and SJ. But yet you want to eliminate these teams.
    Other than East Coast bias, do you have an explanation?
     
  13. JFPIV

    JFPIV Registered User

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    Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! I've been a Hawk fan all my life, when did this "Stanley Cup run" occur?
     
  14. Old Hickory

    Old Hickory Guest

    I think he is talking about Calgary. He must have also forgotten Calgarys Cup in 1989
     
  15. Well, to be fair, in Boston and Chicago, it has more to do with the horrible owners than the lack of interest. If both teams had new owners, interest in the clubs would be greater.
     
  16. SJeasy

    SJeasy Registered User

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    Thanks for the post. This really has been a bone of contention. Although I am somewhat pro-owner, I really think the league has to get with the program and do meaningful revenue sharing with the gate instead of messing around with other streams. IMO, the league is better off in the long run growing the market which takes at least twenty years per venue. A significant national TV presence won't happen until they fully execute this plan. The gate share should hinge on whether or not a team puts a significant but small percent of the revenue into sponsoring local youth hockey. Not disclosing this reality causes huge problems with public perception.

    The NHL should also be looking to move a deal which directly and immediately benefits players on teams that make the playoffs by putting some of the gate in their checks instead of pocketing it all because they have overpaid for the regular season. Forward thinking, real-world companies do this to cushion the effect of economic down cycles.

    I liked the way the teams were ranked, but the one issue that is left out of this list is the fixed costs per team. There are significant differences between the teams on their leases and TV revenue. It would be nice to see a comparison that included two more columns for leases and local TV revenue. Does anyone have that?
     
  17. syc

    syc Registered User

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    I like this one.
     
  18. Hasbro

    Hasbro Can He Skate?! Sponsor

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    Is attendence based on percentage or tickets sold?
     
  19. Old Hickory

    Old Hickory Guest

    I an not in favor of eliminating any franchises. I am trying to understand his reasoning
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2005
  20. Vapour Trail

    Vapour Trail Registered User

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    Triumph says: "(insert your most reviled small/medium/not as large as your city-market team here) is a great hockey city... for me to poop on!"

    How about we just contract to the original six teams, since no other city in North America could ever be as good a market as they are. Better yet, maybe we could have a three team round-robin with NY, Det, and MTL every year, with the winner getting the opportunity to thumb their noses and/or moon the other teams for being weaklings on TSN.

    :shakehead

    (Someone actually suggests that the Coyotes should move back to Winnipeg... so we're taking a team that LEFT Winnipeg because it couldn't make it and moving it back to the same place???) :dunno:
     
  21. Phanuthier*

    Phanuthier* Guest

    Not to mention the Flames roster in the mid-late 80's. If it weren't for the Oilers, its believed the Flames would be right up there with the Isles and Habs as one of the great dynasties of the NHL (Lanny MacDonald, Haakan Loob, Joe Nieuwendyk, Gary Roberts, Theoren Fleury, Kent Nilson, Mike Vernon, Joe Mullen, Joel Otto, Doug Gilmour, Al MacInnis ect ect).

    PartizaN really doesn't seem to know worth dick about what he's talking about.
     
  22. Injektilo

    Injektilo Registered User

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    There are a million and one other factors that should be taken into account when labelling a list "top hockey towns". What this measures is teams in certain cities that have higher ticket prices than others and sell more tickets, ie the big markets. Being a big market does not make you a bigger hockey town than most other places.

    I mean, IIRC, at Tampa's victory parade/celebration, they had 30,000 fans come out. When Calgary got back from Tampa, they had 100,000 fans come out to celebrate the losing team.

    Not just based on that alone, but I don't think anyone could argue that Tampa Bay is a more hockey obsessed town than Calgary.
     
  23. Sotnos

    Sotnos Registered User

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    Good question. Interesting list, but I hadn't thought of that and it is important.

    For people ripping on the thread starter for the rankings - I think he made it clear that he used stats to make the list, not his own opinions.

    If you take out their best year, you'd have to take out every other team's best year.
     
  24. Well, it should be top NHL Hockey towns, because those certainly aren't the best hockey towns.
     
  25. canes-sth

    canes-sth Registered User

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    But the "stats" (where did the revenue #s come from and are they accurate to begin with) don't include expenses.

    I'm not exactly sure what the framework of this discussion is supposed to be. Fan interest as defined by "revenue" (again, what is the source) and attendance is one thing. Franchise viability (implied by the lines at 20 and 24) in regards to this whole lockout must really include expenses as well.
     
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