Top 10 Penguins of All Time

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,575
1,249
Montreal, QC
I think after back to back Cups it's a good time to reevaluate the franchises history.

A top 5 franchise players discussion would probably be pretty boring given that the top 4 will largely be the same 4 players on many lists. So I think top 10 is the way to go.

What does your list look like and how did this season change it (if at all)?

My top 10 would go as follows:

10.Matt Murray
9. Marc-Andre Fleury
8. Kevin Stevens
7. Rick Tocchet
6. Paul Coffey
5. Ron Francis
4. Evgeni Malkin
3. Jaromir Jagr
2. Sidney Crosby
1. Mario Lemieux
 

Shwag33

Registered User
May 27, 2008
6,107
371
I don't think Gonchar in the top 10, but he should be ahead of kessel who is on a lot of these lists.



Edit: He might be 9 or 10 for me.
 

Al Smith

Registered User
Apr 28, 2012
7,115
3,714
For those that never saw Kehoe, think Kessel. They are basically the same player.

That year that Carlyle won the Norris, he was incredible imo. He was a magician with the puck. The next year?, haha.....he put on s0me weight, and fans dubbed him "Porky". I think it was deserving. (The Norris, that is)

On Burrows, I remember an interview Mike Lange was doing with a current NHL superstar at the time, (damn, I can't remember exactly who) and Lange asked about the perception of Burrows throughout the league with players. Lange said "we know here in Pittsburgh how good he is, but how is he viewed around the league?", the star replied, "Burrows? the best defensive defensemen in the league. Believe me, we (players) know how good he is."

The Kehoe/Kessel comparison is interesting; I didn't think of that. My recollection was that Kehoe scored more of his goals from the dots on in, especially working from behind the net and the corners, than Kessel. But yeah, there are a lot of similarities.

Just never got Carlyle and the Norris. Perhaps I was jaded by how bad the team was and/or I'm remembering Carlyle in later years (I do remember when the Pens got him from Toronto - everyone was pretty excited). Even in his Norris year, I remember him being euphemistically "stocky" and slow-ish.
 

td_ice

Peter shows the way
Aug 13, 2005
32,953
3,499
USA
I know we're being snarky and all, but honestly, these 10 Worst Penguins of all time lists are way more interesting than the 10 Best.
Good ole Jay Caufield would be number one on that list.

Tocchet was great while he was here, but just didn't play long enough in Pen's uni. 140 games?? Not enough for me.
 

td_ice

Peter shows the way
Aug 13, 2005
32,953
3,499
USA
The Kehoe/Kessel comparison is interesting; I didn't think of that. My recollection was that Kehoe scored more of his goals from the dots on in, especially working from behind the net and the corners, than Kessel. But yeah, there are a lot of similarities.

Just never got Carlyle and the Norris. Perhaps I was jaded by how bad the team was and/or I'm remembering Carlyle in later years (I do remember when the Pens got him from Toronto - everyone was pretty excited). Even in his Norris year, I remember him being euphemistically "stocky" and slow-ish.

I think Kehoe was a pure sniper like Phil. Also like Phil, he rarely was involved in any contact. Kehoe had a lethal wrister.

Yeah, Carlyle was kind of a one hit wonder, in terms of being elite. That one year was his peak, and he slid down after that.
 

Habs10025

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,605
968
Lemieux
Jagr
Crosby
Malkin
Francis
Stevens
Coffey
Barrasso
Letang
Fleury
Only change Id make would be Coffey with Murphy .. Murphy was a key part of both cup wins and Coffey was only around for the first cup and even missed games in that playoffs
 

Syrinx

Registered User
Jul 7, 2005
9,509
778
Cary, NC
Not in order:
M.Lemieux
S.Crosby
E.Malkin
J.Jagr
K.Stevens
P.Coffey
R.Francis
M-A.Fleury
T.Barrasso
An old Timer - I know very little of the players before the 80s but am confident one of them should be in here. Consensus seems to be Pronovost.

I'm trying to figure out why people are putting Tocchet onto their lists - he had one good season in Pittsburgh.
 

Vujtek

Registered User
Oct 7, 2007
3,540
627
My top-50 list:

1. Mario Lemieux
2. Sidney Crosby
3. Jaromir Jagr
4. Evgeni Malkin
5. Ron Francis
6. Paul Coffey

That top-6 is easy. Some may want to place Jagr one spot up or even down, and Coffey and Francis might be swapped on some lists, but there probably isn't any disagreement with any of their places on Penguins' top-6 list.

7. Kevin Stevens (premier power forward of his time and very high two-year career peak)
8. Kris Letang (won't be long before he overtakes Coffey for franchise lead for goals, assists and points amongst Penguins D-men)
9. Larry Murphy (underrated and -appreciated but ever so important piece of b2b Stanley Cups. Letang gets the longetivity edge in my books though having already played nearly 300 more games for the Penguins than Murphy did)
10. Marc-Andre Fleury (last years heroics in the early round of playoffs boosts Fleury over Barrasso on my list; before that I had Barrasso with the edge due to two Cups as a starter over Fleury's one)

Then it starts to get a matter of preference after Barrasso, Pronovost and Kehoe IMO. Many guys with relatively short times with the Penguins but very high impact during that time so that has to be balanced against longer times here and perhaps not so high peaks:

11. Tom Barrasso (very close with Fleury on the list)
12. Jean Pronovost (best Penguin pre-Mario)
13. Rick Kehoe (still 5th on all-time points list for Penguins players, and top-10 in games played, assists and goals)
14. Mark Recchi (lead the team superbly during the first Cup year when Lemieux missed most of the season)
15. Rick Tocchet (key player for the second Cup win and big time season following that year. Didn't stay long enough to be higher on the list)
16. Phil Kessel (similar to Tocchet except Kessel can still rise on the list. Two years with the Penguins and two Cups so far)
17. Matt Murray (two Cups as a starter in two years is certainly deserving of a high spot on the list despite low number of career GP so far)
18. Randy Carlyle (only Penguin to have won the Norris Trophy, captain of the team for three seasons)
19. Sergei Gonchar (#1 D-man on 2009 Cup team and four 50+ point seasons as a D-man)
20. Syl Apps Jr. (franchise leader in assists before Mario, still top-10 in all-time assists and points lists for the Penguins)

21. Joe Mullen (three consecutive 30+ and 70+ point seasons with the Penguins, member of 91' and 92' Cup teams, trusted veteran presence)
[22. Alexei Kovalev (somehow got lost originally, should be around here though)]
23. Chris Kunitz (three Cups with the Penguins and most of that time a trusted winger for Crosby)
24. Jordan Staal (best third line C in league during most of his time with the Penguins, key member on the 2009 Cup team)
25. Ulf Samuelsson (the trade that brought Ulfie to Pens along with Francis is still the best trade Penguins have ever made)
26. Patric Hörnqvist (a warrior on two Cup winning teams and hopefully more is still to come, could climb up higher on the list)
27. Pierre Larouche (first teenage superstar on Penguins, 111 points and 5th place in scoring as a 20 year old; but overall stayed with the Penguins only as short period of time)
28. Martin Straka (still one my all-time favorite Penguins, occupies 10th place on all-time points for the Penguins)
29. Ron Schock (longest-serving Penguins captain after Mario and Sid)
30. Ron Stackhouse (still high on every statistical category for Penguins D-men, best Penguin D-man during the 70's)

31. Brooks Orpik (not highly thought after here but played a long and fine career as a tough, physical D-man for the Penguins; key member of 2009 Cup winning defensive group)
32. Bob Errey (12th most games played for the Penguins and part of the leadership group for two Cup winning teams)
33. James Neal (high peak years alongside Malkin but only a short time here after all)
34. Petr Nedved (170 points in 154 games in two seasons with the Penguins, made an impact here)
35. John Cullen (the high level of play by Cullen made the deal for Francis and Samuelsson possible, two 90+ point seasons with the Penguins)
36. Lowell MacDonald (one of the better Penguins' of the 70's)
37. Greg Malone (long-time Penguin and five seasons with 50+ points here)
38. Darius Kasparaitis (hated by everyone before he became a Penguin, then a fan favorite)
39. Jake Guentzel (his performance during last years Cup win as a rookie was historically good so he already belongs on the list)
40. Michel Briere (RIP, scored the first ever playoff series clinching goal for Penguins history)

41. Andy Bathgate (scored the first ever goal in Penguins' history)
42. Bryan Trottier (veteran leader on two Cup winning teams)
43. Matt Cullen (veteran leader on two Cup winning teams)
44. Billy Guerin (veteran leader on 2009 Cup winning team)
45. Rob Brown (high peak season, 115 points, alongside Mario during the 80's)
46. Max Talbot (fan favorite and big part of the 2009 Cup winning team)
47. Pascal Dupuis (a reliable two-way player and long-time winger for Crosby)
48. Dave Burrows (a long-time Penguin during the 70's, even got a one top-10 Hart Trophy placement during his days)
49. Paul Gardner (nearly 200 games played at PPG level for the Penguins just before Mario arrived)
50. Stu Barnes (one of my personal favorites)

51. Robert Lang (big season for the Penguins during Mario's comeback season; bumped off top-50 with the inclusion of originally forgotten Kovalev)

Perhaps I should have found a spot for Phil Bourque, Justin Schultz, Nick Bonino or some other important members of the Cup winning teams as well.

Sergei Zubov and Marian Hossa stayed here too short time to made the list IMO. Talentwise obviously they'd belong high on the list.

I'm not too familiar with pre-Mario days so looking at the list, perhaps I put too much value on Larouche's peak year but numbers wise it was an amazing season. But perhaps it shouldn't triumph over several others below him that played longer time here and won Cups? Same could be said of Paul Gardner... perhaps Bonino should be on the list over him due to impact on Cup winning teams?
 
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Don'tcry4mejanhrdina

Registered User
Aug 4, 2003
11,329
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This space.
You forgot Kovalev. I’d also place Straka higher than Kunitz, Hornqvist, Mullen and Staal quite easily. He finished 4th in league scoring one season, had 83 points in another during the dead puck era, was solid defensively and a good PKer plus had some great playoff performances.

Great list though, they’re tough to do.
 

Vujtek

Registered User
Oct 7, 2007
3,540
627
You forgot Kovalev. I’d also place Straka higher than Kunitz, Hornqvist, Mullen and Staal quite easily. He finished 4th in league scoring one season, had 83 points in another during the dead puck era, was solid defensively and a good PKer plus had some great playoff performances.

Great list though, they’re tough to do.

You're right, good catch.

I made the list originally early in the last season. Now I copy pasted most of it and altered the changes caused by last years Cup run. Then somewhere Kovalev got forgotten. He was 20th on my original list, between Gonchar and Staal. Decided to bump Gonchar up a few spots on this revised list (Kessel and Murray got now placed above Gonchar so eventually he maintained same spot on the list) and Kunitz got bumped ahead of Staal (with the 3rd Cup win and that key game 7 double-OT goal). During those changes Kovalev got lost. Definitely should be there and high too. Probably now would place him between Mullen and Kunitz.
 

Vujtek

Registered User
Oct 7, 2007
3,540
627
With regards to that top-50 list above, here's every Penguin that's been in top-10 in goals, assists, points or in votes for a major award during one season, outside of the big-6:

Top-10 in points:
Kevin Stevens 2. (1991-92)
Mark Recchi 4. (1990-91)
Alexei Kovalev (tied for) 5. (2000-01)
Martin Straka (tied for) 5. (2000-01)
John Cullen 5. (traded away mid-season, 1990-91)
Rob Brown 5. (1988-89)
Pierre Larouche 5. (1975-76)
Chris Kunitz (tied for) 7. (2012-13)
James Neal (tied for) 7. (2011-12)
Syl Apps Jr. 7. (1973-74)
Jean Pronovost 8. (1975-76)
Lowell MacDonald (tied for) 9. (1973-74)
Syl Apps Jr. 10. (1975-76)

Top-10 in goals:
Kevin Stevens 2. (1991-92)
Pierre Larouche 3. (1975-76)
James Neal 4. (2011-12)
Rick Kehoe (tied for) 4. (1980-81)
Jean Pronovost 4. (1975-76)
Alexei Kovalev 5. (2000-01)
Lowell MacDonald 6. (1973-74)
Rob Brown (tied for) 7. (1988-89)
Mike Bullard (tied for) 7. (1983-84)
Jean Pronovost (tied for) 7. (1973-74)
Chris Kunitz 8. (2013-14)
Chris Kunitz (tied for) 8. (2012-13)
Alexei Kovalev (tied for) 8. (traded away mid-season, 2002-03)
Kevin Stevens 8. (1992-93)
Jean Pronovost 8. (1974-75)
Mark Recchi 9. (traded away mid-season, 1991-92)
James Neal (tied for) 10. (2012-13)
Joe Mullen (tied for) 10. (1991-92)

Top-10 in assists:
Martin Straka 3. (2000-01)
Mark Recchi (tied for) 4. (1990-91)
Syl Apps Jr. 4. (1973-74)
Kris Letang 6. (2015-16)
Rob Brown 6. (1988-89)
Syl Apps Jr. (tied for) 6. (1975-76)
Kevin Stevens (tied for) 7. (1991-92)
John Cullen 7. (traded away mid-season, 1990-91)
Randy Carlyle 7. (1980-81)
Ron Shock 7. (1974-75)
Syl Apps Jr. (tied for) 8. (1972-73)
Ron Stackhouse 10. (1975-76)

Top-10 in Hart Trophy votes:
Denis Herron 7. (1978-79)
Syl Apps Jr. 7. (1973-74)
Kevin Stevens 8. (1991-92)
Marc-Andre Fleury 9. (2010-11)
Mark Recchi 9. (1990-91)
Dave Burrows 10. (1975-76)

Top-10 in Selke Trophy votes:
Jordan Staal 3. (2009-10)
Pascal Dupuis 7. (2012-13)
Jordan Staal 8. (2011-12)

Top-10 in Norris Trophy votes:
Randy Carlyle 1. (1980-81)
Kris Letang 3. (2012-13)
Larry Murphy 3. (1992-93)
Kris Letang 4. (2015-16)
Sergei Gonchar 4. (2007-08)
Larry Murphy 4. (1994-95)
Larry Murphy 5. (1991-92)
Kris Letang 6. (2010-11)
Sergei Gonchar 7. (2006-07)
Kris Letang 8. (2014-15)
Kris Letang 9. (2011-12)
Ron Stackhouse 9. (1978-79)
Justin Schultz 10. (2016-17)
Larry Murphy 10. (1993-94)
Ulf Samuelsson 10. (1992-93)

Top-10 in Vezina Trophy votes:
Tom Barrasso 2. (1992-93)
Tom Barrasso 3. (1997-98)
Michel Dion 3. (1981-82)
Ken Wregget 5. (1994-95)
Marc-Andre Fleury 7. (2011-12)
Marc-Andre Fleury 8. (2010-11)
 
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Penguins23

Le Magnifique
Dec 14, 2006
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NB Canada
Never noticed that Letang has finished top 10 in Norris votes 4 times. Crazy how he's never made Team Canada post-WJHC.
 

edog37

Registered User
Jan 21, 2007
6,055
1,602
Pittsburgh
Great thread! Doing a Top 11....

1) Lemieux
2) Crosby
3) Jagr
4) Malkin
5) Francis
6) Coffey
7) Stevens
8) Murphy
9) Ulf
10) Carlyle
11) Barrasso

Others: Syl Apps Jr., Michel Briere, Pierre Laroche, Gary Roberts, MAF, Gonchar, Battleship Kelly, Michel Dion, Rick Tocchet, Bryan Trottier, Kjell Samuelsson, Joey Mullen, Mark Recchi, Kris Letang, Matt Murray
 

Dread Pirate Roberts

Registered User
Jul 2, 2008
6,271
60
Mountain West
1) Lemieux
2) Jagr
3) Crosby
4) Malkin
5) Francis
6) Letang
7) Barrasso
8) Stevens
9) Apps
10) Pronovost

My list is a little bit weird, so I'll explain my methodology.

First, to be a Top 10 Penguin of all time, you have to be a true Penguin. To me, that means when people think of that player, they think of their years with the Penguins. Maybe not very first, but it has to come up early. Everyone on my list is either a career Penguin or has a decade out of their career that was their "Penguins Decade." Everyone on the list spent at least ten years with the Penguins except Francis and Apps, and Francis is a quintessential 90s Penguin. When you think of Ronny Francis, you think of the Whalers and you think of the 90s Penguins. Apps spent 2/3 of his career with the Penguins, so he's more a Penguin than anything else. This qualification kept Coffey and Murphy off the list for sure, and there would have been an argument for Recchi.

Years played with the Penguins defined the set of players I'm working with, but didn't play any part in the ranking order. That was based on various definitions of greatness.

Definition #1: Elite Player

Elite players could be considered the best forward, best defender, or best goalie in the league at some point in time, either a regular season or a playoff season. Winners of the Ross, Hart, Pearson, Norris and Vezina could be argued to be the best player in the regular season. Conn Smythe winners and leaders in playoff points scored can be considered the best player for a playoff season. The Rushmore guys (Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby and Malkin) all collected a ton of those, though Lemieux the most and Malkin the least. Francis had the most points of anyone on the '92 Cup team, ahead of both Lemieux and Jagr as well as Kevin Stevens, allowing him to slide into the bottom of the "Elite Player" category, at #5.

Definition #2: Great Player

A great player is one of the top players in the league. Top 5 finishes in the Ross, Hart, Norris, and Vezina races are the standard. Too many head-scratchers on a leaguewide basis below the Top 5. Letang has been in the Top 5 in Norris voting twice and Barasso was top-5 in the Vezina twice as a Penguin, so the tie went to the guy who was more consistently above-average. Barasso turned in a couple of below-average seasons. Stevens was #2 for the Art Ross in '92, so he sneaks into the bottom of the "Great Player" category at #8.

Defintion #3: Hall of Very Good

These guys were not necessarily top players leaguewide, but they were quality players and also the best player on the Penguins. Apps was the best Penguin for longer than either Pronovost or Kehoe (who narrowly missed making this list), so he is #9.


Where the ______ was _______ _______?!?

Yes, I left one of your favorite players off. I'm sure everyone wonders where Fleury is, but while qualifying as a true Penguin, he was never elite or great. By the time he was even average, Crosby and Malkin were on the team, so he was never the best Penguin. If you add together his goals saved above (or below) average from the regular season and playoffs, he's literally an average goalie. To me, average doesn't make you the top anything.

Randy Carlyle won a Norris trophy, so he has an argument to be as high as #5, but he was a Penguin for less than a third of his career. Paul Coffey and Larry Murphy have already been mentioned as guys who were great players, but they had even shorter stretches with the Penguins. Each had three top-5 finishes in Norris voting with the Penguins, but everyone thinks of Coffey as an Oiler and everyone thinks of Murphy as either a Capital or a Red Wing.
 

billybudd

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
22,049
2,249
1. Lemieux
2. Crosby
3. Jagr
4. Malkin
5. Coffey
6. Francis
7. Recchi (seriously...people forget because he wasn't around for cup #2, but Recchi was a gamebreaker in his first stint in Pittsburgh)
8. Letang
9. Murphy
10. Gonchar

I wanted to get Mullen in here somewhere, but he didn't do much other than sneak in from nowhere and finish plays (he did this quite well, though). If I had to put a goalie, it would be Barrasso, but I have a hard time putting him on a list like this because he screwed us as often as he saved us in the post-season. In 96, in particular, Barrasso's 80% of the reason we lost to Florida instead of losing in the finals to Colorado (Francis injury and lax officiating were also factors).


Never noticed that Letang has finished top 10 in Norris votes 4 times. Crazy how he's never made Team Canada post-WJHC.

Canada's really heavy on high quality right-handed D. They're the only nation that is.

If Letang was from literally any country except Canada, he'd be first pair every time they built a team.

Edit: except Sweden. He'd be on the second pair behind EK.
 

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