Top 10 goalies of all-time (please specify)

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Big Phil, Feb 10, 2007.

  1. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    This type of thread has been beaten to death I know. But there are a lot of various opinions on this topic. Some think the #1 goalie debate is over before it starts. Some dont. Sawchuk, Roy, Hasek and Plante are mentioned all as #1's -although mostly just the first two. But after that a lot of controversy will revolve around Tretiak, Dryden, Parent, Fuhr and Smith. Durnan, Broda are others that would be on the bubble. I think Brodeur and Hall are locks on this list along with the other top 4 but after that it's close.

    Tell me what your list is and why you have it in that order. Too many people just make a list without anything to back up their points. That's okay, but I want to know why you think so-and-so is #1-10.
     
  2. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    The more I read, the more my list changes, but, here goes.

    1. Dominic Hasek-The highest peak of any goalie ever. Heck, I personally rank him as having the 4th highest peak of any player ever. Inconsistent and moody, could dissapear easily and has struggled with fragility. but when he's on, he is one of the only players in history who can pretty much single handedly win a game. Highly underrated longevity.

    2. Jacques Plante-Greatest playoff goalie of all time. Hard to read because he was part of the greatest team ever. Perfect balance of domination, innovation, clutch play and longevity.

    3. Glenn Hall-The model of consistency, he has both the high peak and the longevity. He was able to be better in the regular season than Sawchuck and Plante in their prime, and was even best goalie when playing on a sub-par Blues team. Had some bad playoffs, but is highly underrated in that regard.

    4. Terry Sawchuk-Second highest peak of any goalie. Quite inconsitent after that. Could turn it up to another level in the clutch, but, often didn't.

    5. Patrick Roy-When he's on in the playoffs, his team wins it all. Excellent longevity, but, surprisingly undominant except for a few hugely memorable playoff performances.

    6. Clint Benedict-The first superstar goalie. Fearless innovator. No one can match the duration of relative dominance that he achieved. Excellent in the playoffs as well. (Except against the unstoppable force of Cyclone/Nighbor)

    7. Turk Broda-No one elevated their play in the playoffs quite like Broda.

    8. Chuck Gardiner-Third highest peak of any goalie. Had a legit chance of being the best ever before his death.

    9. Martin Brodeur-Finally starting to dominate. Model of consistency, longevity and clutch play. Innovator in puck movement. Most importantly of all, probably the greatest team leader to ever wear a mask and pads.

    10. Jiri Holocek-Best non-NHL goalie ever. Was able to stand down the uber-potent 70's soviets.
     
  3. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Nice list, surprised to see Hall so high. I mean he has 11 post season all-star nods but it's hard to look past some of his playoff failures. Good list though. I'd hate put Hall 6th.
     
  4. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    So do the other top goalies. Hall also has alot of playoff success.
     
  5. chabotsky_33

    chabotsky_33 Registered User

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    #10 Bill Durnan (canadiens)-ambidextrous and simply owned the N.H.L. during his career!

    #9 Dominick Hasek-The hart trophies,vezinas and cup wins speak for themself!

    #8 Jacques Plante-Hart trophy...the original puck handler and changed the way the position is played

    #7 Glenn Hall-"Mr. Goalie" his durability make him a legend

    #6 Patrick Roy- wins champ and clutch Money Goalie

    #5 Billy Smith- Backstopped the isles dynasty..regualr season was average..when the games counted he rose to the occasion!

    #4 George Hainsworth- the original shut-out champ..22 s.o.'s in 44 that's insane!

    #3 Terry Sawchuk-101 shutouts and a winner wherever he played

    #2 Lorne Chabot-all time greatest ratio of shut-outs to games played ..invented the gauntlet glove...played the two longest ot games of all time...and he's my grampa..nepotism counts on my list!(haha)

    #1 Martin Brodeur-when its all said and done he will be the all time wins and shut-out leader..Marty can do it all saves..puck handling,win the big game..and score if necessary!

    this was my first post so please be kind!
     
  6. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    I like Lorne Chabot, he's a guy that may be one of the best ever not in the Hall of Fame but #2? Come on, Grandpa or not.
     
  7. Chili

    Chili Registered User

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    Great Lorne Chabot quote...

     
  8. bishop12

    bishop12 Ovyously

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    Career wise, I'd say Brodeur is the best all time. For straight talent, Hasek.
     
  9. pitseleh

    pitseleh Registered User

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    1. Jacques Plante - Both an innovater and a great goaltender. Great playoff and regular season success.

    2. Dominik Hasek - An incredibly dominant goaltender. I remember worrying when the Canucks had to face him because he was so good. The only thing that keeps him behind Plante is Plante's longevity.

    3. Terry Sawchuk - His early 50's peak with the Red Wings would have him in the top 10 alone, but he continued to have good seasons for another 10 years afterwards.

    4. Glenn Hall - He tends to get the shaft despite because of his playoff numbers despite the fact that he tended to play just as well in the playoffs. His post-season All Star record is astounding.

    5. Patrick Roy - Mr. Clutch. Never had a peak like the others, but when it came to the playoffs, there were few others you'd want in net.

    6. Ken Dryden - Sure he played on a great team, but he made the saves when he had to, and both his playoff and regular season records are outstanding. Is hurt by his short career.

    7. Clint Benedict - Definitely a much underappreciated player. Was incredibly dominant during his time in the league and was also an innovater, which has to count for something.

    8. Martin Brodeur - The backbone of those Devils' teams, finally getting a chance to show he can do it on his own.

    9. Chuck Gardiner - Wasn't in the league for very long due to his premature death, he absoutely destroyed the competition while he was.

    10. Turk Broda - Can't deny the guy was an extremely clutch player. That alone earns him a place on this list.
     
  10. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    1. Plante. He was the best combination of dominance and longevity, and regular season and playoff performance. He was the only goalie from his era (aside from Rollins) to win a Hart. He had consistency (six all-star selections in seven years) and longevity (still an all-star into his 40's). Most importantly, Plante improved in the playoffs, helped Montreal win five Cups, and he gave weak teams like the Blues and Leafs a chance to be competitive in the playoffs.

    2. Hasek. Like many people said, he was probably the most dominant goaltender ever in his prime. He singlehandedly won a dozen or two games per year that Buffalo deserved to lose. Hasek is one of the few goalies who, in his prime, was unquestionably the best player (as opposed to being merely the best goalie) in the league. His playoff accomplishments are, if anything, underrated. He was the only reason Buffalo, otherwise a bottom-feeder, made the Cup finals in 1999, and almost singlehandedly won a gold medal for the Czechs in 1998. His longevity is underrated: he was a top five player from around '94 to '99 and has been a Vezina threat almost every year from 1994 to 2007.

    3. Roy. Arguably the greatest playoff goalie ever. He won four Cups and (despite people underrating the ’86 and ’93 Habs) won two of them practically on his own. He’s the only player (let alone the only goalie) with three Conn Smythes. Still, I think people underrate his regular-season performance. From 1989 to 1994 he was extremely dominant and was easily the best goalie in the league during the stretch. He finished in the top five for the Hart trophy four times in those six years, won three Vezinas, and was runner-up for one more (not to mention earning Conn Smythe #3). Include his late-career resurgence as a Vezina candidate in 2001, 2002 and 2003 and Roy also has significant longevity.

    4. Hall. Was named to the first all-star team (the equivalent of the Vezina prior to 1982) seven times, more than any goalie in history. Very consistent (he owns the goalie iron man streak) and was an all-star an incredible 11 times in 14 years. Hall’s playoff performances are probably underrated. The essay I wrote about the Hawks shows that Hall was a very strong playoff performer and shouldn’t take any blame for their inability to win more than one Cup. Plus, he’s one of the few goalies with a Conn Smythe and helped keep the Blues competitive after expansion.

    5. Dryden. Incredible dominance in the playoffs, with 1 Conn Smythe and six Stanley Cups in eight years. His regular season dominance is incredible: he was named the league’s best goalie five teams in eight years and finished in the top five for the Hart trophy three times (including runner-up only to Orr in 1970). For those who say that Dryden was an average goalie reliant on a great team: consider 1974. That year, Dryden sat out due to a contract dispute. Montreal dropped to fourth in the NHL in the regular season standings (their worst performance in four years), fell to seventh in goals against (their worst performance in four years), and lost in the first round (tied for their worst performance in four years). In the four years immediately before and after Dryden sitting out (1972, 1973, 1975 and 1976), Montreal finished first in the regular season standings three times, led the league in goals against twice (and was in the top five each year), and won 2 Stanley Cups and lost in the Cup semi-finals another year. This proves that Dryden was a huge part of the team’s success.

    6. Sawchuk. I know I rank Sawchuk lower than most people. I can’t get over his huge drop-off in play after he left Detroit for the first time. True, I’m only looking at numbers and award selections after the fact (I haven’t actually seen Sawchuk play) but the drop-off is still enormous. In the first six years of his 18-season career, he had five all-star selections, three Stanley Cups, a 67.1 win percentage, 57 shutouts (.17 per game) and more than half of his playoff wins and three-quarters of his playoff shutouts. In the rest of his career, he had only two all-star selections, 1 Stanley Cup, a 37.0% win percentage, 46 shutouts (0.07 per game) and under half his career playoff wins and shutouts. Basically, the first five years of his career were Hasek- or Dryden-esque, but two-thirds of his career were very average. I can’t rank him above Hall or Plante who were nearly as good, but maintained their level of play for so much longer.

    7. Benedict. It appears that, in his prime, Benedict was as dominant as any goalie in history. He led the league in goals-against average six times in nine years (on two different teams). He helped Ottawa and Montreal win four Stanley Cups, and his GAA dropped significantly in the playoffs. It’s hard to say exactly how everyone in league perceived him, as they didn’t have the any all-stars teams then, and the Hart wasn’t around until the seventh year of his NHL career. Still, he was a finalist for the Hart in its second year of existence only losing to Burch and Morenz.

    8. Durnan. The Dryden of his era, with a short, dominant career. Named the best goalie six times in his seven-year career; led the league in GAA six times in seven years. He won two Stanley Cups, led the playoffs in GAA three times and his GAA dropped significantly in the playoffs. He was a finalist for the Hart three times in seven years. Some criticize him for playing in the watered-down WWII years… but one Cup, all three of his Hart nominations and four of his first all-star selections came after the war.

    9. Brodeur. A model of consistency that raised his game in the playoffs. In his best seasons (prior to 2007… this is probably his best yet) he was stuck behind Hasek. Since 1980, only Roy and Hasek have more Vezinas. Gets credits for excellent puckhandling. However, as of today, I can’t rank him any higher than third best of his generation. Roy tops Brodeur in playoff performance (Roy has more Cups, more playoff wins, more Conn Smythes and Brodeur has never had anything close to a performance like Roy in ’86 or ’93) and Roy’s regular season peak (’89 – ’94) is better than Brodeur’s. Hasek tops Brodeur because, when they were both in their prime, Hasek beat Brodeur for the Hart and Vezina every single year. Brodeur had better longevity but not enough, in my mind, to cancel out Hasek’s superiority in his best years. However, I will rank Brodeur high if (and only if) he gets additional Cups, Vezinas, or other strong seasons.

    10. Bower. I think he gets underrated around here. He has a good mix of regular season and playoff performance. Bower won three Stanley Cups as a starter (plus one more as a backup) and led the playoffs in goals against and save percentage those three years. He led the league in save percentage (beating out Sawchuk, Hall and Plante) five times in his career; only Hasek has accomplished this more. Finished in the top seven for the Hart three times.

    Honorable mentions go to (in no particular order) Brimsek, Broda, Esposito, Gardinder, Parent and Smith.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
  11. Muttley*

    Muttley* Guest

    Question to those who have Dryden on their lists: why not Bernie Parent too?

    2 Vezina's
    2 Conn Smythe's
    2 Stanley Cups
    more wins & shutous than Dryden

    Yes, he did play many more games than Dryden, but he did put up respectable numbers on a bad Flyers expansion team that was just starting out.
     
  12. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Goaltending ratings are usually the most fun for me. For the most part, there's some form of consensus with the other positions, not just for No. 1, but the other slots. Not so with goaltender. I think you can make a valid case for any of the top five, and after No. 7 (at least with the NHL goalies) it's wide open among the next six or seven goalies.

    1. Plante. You guys know I'm a sucker for winning. And Jacques Plante was the No. 1 goalie on the best team in history. I'm not as impressed by his seven Vezinas (since it was a GAA award) as I am by his six Cups. He was brilliant in the post-season. His ability to thrive while wearing the mask is likely the most important contribution to his position in the game's history.

    2. Roy. Who would you rather have in a Game 7 situation? Plante or Roy? These two are, for my money, the best big-game goalies ever, and that's why they top my list. Roy's ability to thrive when it matters most is why I take him ahead of Hasek, Sawchuk or Hall. Those three Conn Smythe Trophies can't be argued with. And those 1986 and 1993 Habs teams were not dominant. Big bonus points for his leadership abilities.

    3. Sawchuk. Didn't have Plante's playoff portfolio, but Sawchuk's the guy who set all the records, even though he was usually stuck behind lesser teams. His shutout record still stands. (Although Brodeur is going to eventually break it). He won three rings with those great Red Wing teams in the first half of the 50s, and proved he still had it in 67 when he backstopped Toronto's old-timer crew to their last Cup.

    4. Hall. His seven first-team all-star selections are still a record. Might never be broken. Only won one Cup, but he reached the Cup final several other times, and won a Conn Smythe with an upstart St. Louis team. Lack of playoff domination drops him below the big 3. One of the pioneers of the butterfly style. His consecutive games played streak might be the most unbreakable record in North American professional team sports.

    5. Hasek. Like Hall, he'd be higher if his playoff record was better. Can't always blame him for Buffalo's eliminations, but the one thing that hurts Hasek is reliability. And the way he handles that reliability compounds the situation. He hasn't always handled problems well. But there's never been a goalie like him, and there might never be another one like him. When we saw him for the first time, flopping around, we laughed. When we watched him post a sub-2.00 GAA in 1993-94, we stopped laughing. Likely the most flexible goalie ever. And he had the best run of dominance ever for a goalie in the regular season. Definitely the best and most valuable player in 1997 and 1998. The only Vezina that might be debatable is 2001, when even he said he was surprised he won.

    6. Dryden. Hasek had the best eight-year regular season run in hockey history. Dryden had the best eight-year run, period. In an eight-year span, he won five Vezinas and was a five-time first-team all-star. But he also won six Cups, and a Conn Smythe. If he played as long as Sawchuk or Plante, Dryden would have the career records. He had great size, but to me, what stands out about Dryden is his concentration. The best goalie ever when facing 20-25 shots per game. In other words, he was the perfect goalie to play behind that perfect Montreal team.

    7. Brodeur. If you're a career numbers geek, Brodeur's your guy. When his career is done, he'll hold all the important statistical records. Only Dryden was better when facing 20-25 shots per game. Brodeur was the perfect goalie for those Devils teams. He'll face 20 shots per game, but when you need the big save, he was there. When you needed a series of big saves, he was there. He's the blueprint for his generation of goalies: the big, rangy goalie who played the butterfly style, but still covered so much of the net, and accentuated his size with perfect positioning.

    8. Bernie Parent. As far as peak value, he's as good as any we've ever seen. Played the textbook stand-up style. You might not like the Broad Street Bullies. I get that. But you can't deny Parent's greatness. As the Philly bumper sticker said: "Only Jesus made more saves." It's too bad that he ran into back problems and then suffered a career-ending eye injury. In 74 and 75, he won two Vezinas, was named a first-team all-star, won two Cups and two Conn Smythes, and won 113 games. No goalie can match that, not even Hasek. (Unless you think the regular season is the be-all and end-all). He'd be mentioned among the best ever if he could have stayed healthy.

    9. Turk Broda. One of the best money goalies in NHL history. A five-time Cup winning goalie. His regular season numbers aren't spectacular. He won 302 games, even though he essentially missed four years while serving his country. But the reason I'd take him over Bill Durnan is playoffs. His playoff GAA dropped by more than .6 from the regular season. Few have taken their play to the next level in the post-season like Broda. That's why he's my pick for No. 9.

    10. Bill Durnan. If you would have asked me at this time a year ago where Durnan fits, I would have said 7 or 8. Not any more. I want the goalie who takes his play to another level in the post-season. That's why I have Roy ahead of Hasek. That's why I have Broda ahead of Durnan. Durnan's regular season portfolio is brilliant: six Vezinas and six first-team all-star selections in eight years, and he did win two Cups. But Broda usually was the guy backstopping his team to Cup glory.

    The wildcard is, of course, Tretiak. When it comes to Tretiak, I've seen him rated anywhere from No. 1 all-time to outside of the top 10. He's like Kharlamov: there's a true element of mystery to him. Some rate him highly, maybe higher than they should, because they dream how good he would have been in the NHL. Others doubt his place in the game because he never played in the show. I have him at No. 8 all-time. He showed me enough in the 72 Summit Series, and in the exhibition games against NHL teams (when they actually meant something) to warrant a top 10 spot. But was he better than Brodeur? I don't think so.

    Honourable mention goes to Johnny Bower, Chuck Gardiner, Frank Brimsek and Clint Benedict.
     
  13. techtroll

    techtroll Registered User

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    Let me add 2 more "wildcards."
    Ron Grahame, who played his peak years in the WHA. We'll just never know.
    Gilles Meloche, who had to stand behind some of the crappiest teams ever assembled.
    Dryden never had to face Lafleur as an opponent. Oddly, Sawchuk had much better numbers when Gordie Howe was his teammate. Brodeur has had to stare down Gretzky, Lindros, Lemieux and now Crosby. He'll probably set the shutout record by poke-checking Tavares in a few years. For me, that makes the difference.
     
  14. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    But Dryden did have to face Orr, Esposito, Dionne, Clarke, Trottier, Perreault and Bossy. When he won his first Cup in 71, he faced guys like Mikita and Bobby Hull.
     
  15. NOTENOUGHBREWER

    NOTENOUGHBREWER Registered User

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    Brodeurs first full season was like the lockout year. He hardly faced the best years of Lemieux and Gretzky.
     
  16. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    1 Glenn Hall
    2 Patrick Roy
    3 Terry Sawchuk
    4 Ken Dryden
    5 Dominik Hasek
    6 Jacques Plante
    7 Frank Brimsek
    8 Martin Brodeur
    9 Clint Benedict
    10 Bill Durnan
    11 Cecil " Tiny" Thompson
    12 Tony Esposito
    13 Bernie Parent
    14 Walter " Turk" Broda
    15 Roy Worters
    16 Chuck Rayner
    17 Ed Giacomin
    18 Georges Vezina
    19 George Hainsworth
    20 Johnny Bower
    21 Grant Fuhr
    22 Harry Lumley
    23 Alex Connell
    24 Mike Liut
    25 Lorne "Gump" Worsley
    26 Ed Belfour
    27 Charlie Gardiner
    28 Rogatien Vachon
    29 Billy Smith
    30 Tom Barrasso


    There is no stat that tells you much about a goaltender; every stat is largely influenced by the team they play for. Watching a goaltender is the only way to truly evaluate him.

    That being said, Glenn Hall was voted the NHL's best or second best on 11 occasions. Add a Conn Smythe, A Stanley Cup and serious Hart Trophy consideration during his career and he is a clear #1. No other goaltender was voted top 2 in the league more than 8 times.

    Hasek will likely pass Dryden as #4 on my list this season and could have been as high as #2 had he not started his NHL career so late.

    This list is based on the evidence left behind by the eyewitnesses - hockey writers and GMs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2007
  17. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    Holocek is in the exact same boat. Less mystique because he didn't have any memorable performances against Canada. But, he was ever bit a fair rival for Tretiak, and it is very debateable who was better.

    To me, and many others, the criticism against Durnan is that in the same era, in the playoffs, Broda was flat out superior to Durnan.
     
  18. Bear of Bad News

    Bear of Bad News HFBoards Escape Goat

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    If you look at Roy's goals-above average relative to an average NHL goaltender of his era, he's actually nearly as dominant during his peak as Hasek was during his.

    (A mod would have to bump my goal differential thread if it needs to be reopened, because it's an older one: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=253883)

    Roy topped out in the high 40s per season, Hasek in the low 50s. Considering how dominant Hasek was in his era, I think it's fair to say that Roy was pretty dominant in his time as well.
     
  19. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

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    I do feel like a homer rating Brodeur near the top but really some of the things held against him are over-rated.

    Look at Doctor No's list of top 20 playoffs by goal differential and you'll see Brodeur's 95 playoffs rated behind only one of Roy's playoff performances. Just maybe Brodeur has had a playoff performance better than some of Roy's Conn Smythe years.

    Roy's great OT record in 93 is justly regarded as an incredible feat, but it had just as much to do with timely goal scoring as Roy's goaltending. Brodeur played more minutes of OT in the 94 playoffs than Roy did in 86 and 93 combined, and he didn't even make it to the Finals.

    The Devils were far from clear favourites in any of their series against Toronto, Philly and Dallas in 2000. Most say that Brodeur was outperformed by Joseph, Boucher and Belfour in those series. Yet somehow it is Brodeur and the Devils that walked away with the Cup and 10 playoff road wins.

    Much is made of Roy taking underdog teams to Cup wins in 86 and 93, yet it is the Devils who had to beat either the Presidents' Trophy winner or the defending Cup champion to win each of their Cups, and hold the record for road playoff wins in a single playoff.
     
  20. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest


    The problem with this calculation is that it is based on save %. Save % is a team statistic, the quality of shots that goaltenders face vary greatly. Roy had the opportunity to play for a Montreal team that was known for its strong defensive play and for a powerhouse Colorado team so, naturally, his save % was quite good. Put him on the Kings for his career and we would see a very different save %.

    Roy was dominant but, I don't believe this statistic is the way to prove it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2007
  21. Muttley*

    Muttley* Guest

    :shakehead huh??? Lemieux was still having like 160 point seasons, even when he was injured and not playing in every game.

    Ever hear of Jaromir Jagr?

    Or an Eric Lindros in his prime?

    Messier?

    Bure?

    And you're going to blame Brodeur for the fact that Gretzky played in the West and played the Devils only once or twice a year, and even when he came East, he still had several 90+ point seasons???
     
  22. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    Well isn't the whole point that Roy was victorious and Brodeur wasn't? I understand your point about timely scoring, but Brodeur's OT minutes were inflated based on the games against Buffalo in the first round (which he lost) and the loss to the Rangers in the conference finals. So of course history isn't going to remember the goalie who lost in OT versus the guy who went all the way.

    And come on, New Jersey was a powerhouse in 2000. Ironically, the only time they were better was in 2001, when they lost to Roy and the Avs in the cup finals.
     
  23. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Brodeur entered the league in 1993-94. Lemieux missed over half of that season, and the entire lockout year. He faced Lemieux for two full seasons before Lemieux's first retirement. And while Lemieux won the Art Ross in 1996-97, he wasn't the same dominant Mario that we had enjoyed in years past.

    Messier was excellent in 1993-94 and 1995-96, but nobody would qualify that as his prime.

    He did not face Gretzky in his prime.

    That's not to diminish any of Brodeur's accolades. There is far more to evaluating a dominant goaltender than just the calibre of the shooters on the opposition.
     
  24. Muttley*

    Muttley* Guest

    Yeah, I know and agree. But most of the goalies listed in this thread have not faced Lemieux or Gretzky in their prime.

    I'm not sure why this was even brought up in the first place.
     
  25. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

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    So are you telling me that no Canuck fans remember their trip to the Finals in 94? Nobody remembers Giguere's playoff performance in 03 because he didn't win the Cup?

    Is Roy's win after 9 seconds of OT really better than Marty's loss after 125 minutes plus of shutout hockey? The fact is Brodeur's OT games go an average of about 18 minutes over his career, while Roy's only go about 12 minutes.

    How was New Jersey a "powerhouse" in 2000 with 103 points, and Montreal with 102 points in 93 is just another Patrick Roy miracle?
     

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