I'd say remove Firsov (to have Firsov ahead of Gretzky is criminal, the reason nobody's done it since Firsov might have something to do with the calibre of the tournament), Brett Hull (great goal scorer, but I'd take Conacher ahead of him) and Krutov (shouldn't be anywhere near this list. I'd rate Makarov ahead of Krutov).
It's unfair to penalize Gretzky just because he was also an awesome (i.e. obviously the best of all time) playmaker.
I'm not an expert on that era so I can't comment on that. What I said though was that it was a lot harder to score in Bure's era than in the 80's-early 90's which Bossy and Lemieux played most of their careers as they are the ones with a higher GPG than Bure.It was lot harder toscore in the Hull-Howe-Richard eras than it was in the Bure era.
This is the best of all time not the best of the last 25 years.I'm not an expert on that era so I can't comment on that. What I said though was that it was a lot harder to score in Bure's era than in the 80's-early 90's which Bossy and Lemieux played most of their careers as they are the ones with a higher GPG than Bure.
Requested.
Your numbers look reasonable (and are pretty similar to my adjusted goal-scorer list). I'd be interested in hearing about how you calculated this.
I'm not an expert on that era so I can't comment on that. What I said though was that it was a lot harder to score in Bure's era than in the 80's-early 90's which Bossy and Lemieux played most of their careers as they are the ones with a higher GPG than Bure.
If the suggestion is that Bure was a more prolific goal scorer than Bossy or Mario, that is not going to sell anywhere. And that is not a slight at PB, a great player.
I bring this up regularly when some people try to suggest that this player or that was better than Mike Bossy.
Three contemporaries were asked separately who was the greatest natural goal scorer they ever saw. Wayne Gretzky, Raymond Bourque and Mario Lemieux. Three guys who know just a bit about the game.
Their answer was unanimous.
Just me but my own eyes - and, moreover, the opinions of those who played the game - carry more weight than any stat or argument about era, teams, etc.
Mario
Mario
Mario
Others of note: Larouche, Rick Martin, Bossy, Lafleur, Shutt, Coffey, Leach, Orr, Espo, Neely etc Guys who didnt need or want protection (adjust those figures)
snore
Here are the ten best pure goal-scorers ever, as Yours Truly sees it...
1. Mike Bossy
- I don´t know anybody else who the word ´goal-scorer´ would describe better. The deadliest (wrist) shot ever? And yeah, he´s my favorite Canadian player.
2. Mario Lemieux
- He was a decent goal-scorer also
3. Maurice Richard
- Can´t say that I know an awful lot about Rocket, but I guess he belongs here...
4. Bobby Hull
- He scored a few with his slapshot
5. Phil Esposito
- Mr. Garbage Goal
6. Anatoli Firsov
- The only player who has scored more than a goal a game in World Championship history. Maybe you think that´s nothing, but how come no one else has done it?
7. Boris Mikhailov
- The Soviet Espo? Physically no, but yeah, it was more about the quantity and less about the quality of goals that mattered to him
8. Brett Hull
- Now where did he get that shot?
9. Wayne Gretzky
- Okay, no one else has ever scored as many goals on one season or overall (in the NHL), but it´s still hard for me to place him higher. First and foremost, he was a passer and set-up man
10. Vladimir Krutov
- So his career was a little disappointing in the end, but he was a scoring-machine during the ´80s
Honourable mentions: Jari Kurri, Guy Lafleur, Pavel Bure, Vaclav Nedomansky, Valeri Kharlamov, Sergei Makarov
It could be mentioned that (of the top-10 players) Bossy, Richard, Bobby Hull (NHL), Boris Mikhailov and Brett Hull all have more career goals than assists, whereas Lemieux, Esposito (quite surprisingly!) and of course Gretzky all have more assists than goals. I don´t know about Firsov and Krutov...
Things like adjusted goals are still skewed, IMO, because there are so many variables that you simply cannot account for. Rule changes, equipment changes, average ice times etc. thus adjusted goals is an unreliable measure.
Anyway, here is my top 25 NHL goal scorers of all time:
But you don´t think that having Mikhailov ahead of him is criminal? Even though Mikhailov is my favorite Soviet player, I would take Firsov over him both as a player and scorer in a flash. I have never seen any footage of Firsov, but numerous European skaters and more importantly goalies have talked about him in such manner (especially of the accuracy and power of his slapshot) that I can´t believe he´s just a myth. He´s often used as an example of a player who didn´t have any weaknesses. And like I´ve already said; how come no one else (Mikhailovs, Kharlamovs, Makarovs, Krutovs) could score more than a goal a game except him. Yes, the different eras might play a small part.
I saw Gretzky mostly playing those international tournaments where he often took the role of "pure playmaker" and didn´t score so much. That image might have affected my judgement a little bit.
And I´m pretty tired of always having to defend the Soviet players´ "right" to be included to such lists as this. The North American view seems to be always "well, they played AHL-calibre opponents 99,9 % of the time", but can you name those Soviet players who suddenly lost all their skills and scoring ability when they faced the Team Canadas/NHL teams of this world? Heck, some of them (Yakushev comes to mind) even raised their game when facing Canada et co.
Krutov shouldn´t be near the list? That´s your opinion.
Which variable didn't I account for?
A method that just basically awards points for where you place in the league goal scoring race, if I recall correctly. That doesn't really account for much of anything.
Dionne has no place being mentioned among the all-time great goal scorers. Hockey's biggest choke artist. For a player of his talent to have only 21 goals (and 45 points) in 49 games is very substandard. I know his teams weren't great, but you can still deliver in the playoffs while being on middling teams.Has anyone here heard of Marcel Dionne?
To be honest, I don't know what you are not accounting for as I have never seen your formula. But, based on the table you posted, you are obviously missing something significant.
You really don't understand the logic behind my formula so, your attempt to discredit is based in ignorance more than anything.
I have no problem with Firsov and Mikhailov on the list. They are often underrated. The biggest problem I have with Krutov is questioning if he's better than Makarov.
Hey choocher,
Just to be fair, I included Lafleur's goals against Washington for you.
No I'm not suggesting that he's a better goal scorer than those two. I'm saying that he doesn't get enough credit for this number on these boards.If the suggestion is that Bure was a more prolific goal scorer than Bossy or Mario, that is not going to sell anywhere. And that is not a slight at PB, a great player.
I bring this up regularly when some people try to suggest that this player or that was better than Mike Bossy.
Three contemporaries were asked separately who was the greatest natural goal scorer they ever saw. Wayne Gretzky, Raymond Bourque and Mario Lemieux. Three guys who know just a bit about the game.
Their answer was unanimous.
Just me but my own eyes - and, moreover, the opinions of those who played the game - carry more weight than any stat or argument about era, teams, etc.
Yes, and Bure has the third best career GPG number of all time.This is the best of all time not the best of the last 25 years.