Confirmed with Link: Tom Wilson re-signs 2years 2 mil AAV

[trick9]

Which expansion available goalies do you believe would McPhee take ahead of Grubauer? Curious to what you think.

I went over (on a cursory level) the potential ones available and it wasn't that pretty outside of maybe Ranta

I haven't really put on effort about the whole expansion draft and the Vegas situation so i don't know which guys are exempt so i'm not going to go out guessing but there are some good young goalies in the league. Korpisalo, Domingue and guys like that.

They are propably not better than Grubauer but just saying that if they are staring at the decision between Grubauer + skater from Arizona, or Domingue + skater from Capitals, they might pick the latter and take the slightly worse goalie.

If i'm Vegas i'm hoping for Murray. Ben Bishop as the Plan B. Plan C is put less value on goaltending, and take guy like Niemi or Lehtonen for example in return for getting a pick and then drafting your own future goalie. But they have lots of options there. Guys like Mason and Neuvirth are UFA's too and one of them will likely need a team. Brian Elliott might be available at the expansion draft.

 

[artilector]

Yes he does.

The thing is though that there are lots of good goalies in the league. On top of that there are lots of young goalies who have starting goalie potential. Vegas is not going to have tough time finding good goalies. It's going to be easier than finding enough good forwards and D's.

As for Langway pointing out if Connolly gets hot and has monster rest of the season/Playoffs, then even if you are protecting him, there is a very small chance that he'd ever play in the Capitals jersey again with his contract status.

I don't see that.

First of all, if he really can maintain a monster pace in playoffs, then you think twice about keeping him, period. Otherwise, using the same logic, if (say) Burakovsky goes on a monster playoff run, then he's also an almost certainty to get shipped out..

IMO more likely Connolly will continue to look like a solid middle-6 guy with pretty good top-6 potential. He's not gonna sustain 20% shooting. In that case, as an RFA with chequered history, he's as likely as anybody to sign a very nice deal. And given the Caps' cap crunch, he would be the logical option to keep when Oshie and/or Williams leave.

 

[Jags]

generally scaring the **** out of the opposition like a Tom Wilson do you think that ADDS or REMOVES value?

This is an overstatement. No one is scaring the **** out of anyone else in the NHL. This is a game where you accept that you might get hit with a shot or punched in the head or catch a stick to the face and whatever else.

Sure, there are players that don't fight, but no one out there is scared ****less of physical altercations in this league.

Guys try to avoid fighting or taking big hits. That's common sense. I don't think anyone that's ever played this game extensively had a mindset of, "Oh no! The big guy might hit me! Whatever shall I do? I might pee on myself!"

And this is especially true when you consider the type of player you want a Tom Wilson to "protect" you against. Do you really think Perry or Marchand are scared of a fight? Do you think they'd pull half the **** they do if they were afraid of taking a couple punches? That's nonsense.

I really like Wilson's physicality, don't get me wrong. But this notion that he's our protector and scares other teams and is in everyone's head? That's bogus.

Physical dominance in the NHL is all about provocation, drawing penalties, and forcing opponents off their game. That's all. No one's scared.

 

[g00n]

This is an overstatement. No one is scaring the **** out of anyone else in the NHL. This is a game where you accept that you might get hit with a shot or punched in the head or catch a stick to the face and whatever else.

Sure, there are players that don't fight, but no one out there is scared ****less of physical altercations in this league.

Guys try to avoid fighting or taking big hits. That's common sense. I don't think anyone that's ever played this game extensively had a mindset of, "Oh no! The big guy might hit me! Whatever shall I do? I might pee on myself!"

And this is especially true when you consider the type of player you want a Tom Wilson to "protect" you against. Do you really think Perry or Marchand are scared of a fight? Do you think they'd pull half the **** they do if they were afraid of taking a couple punches? That's nonsense.

I really like Wilson's physicality, don't get me wrong. But this notion that he's our protector and scares other teams and is in everyone's head? That's bogus.

Physical dominance in the NHL is all about provocation, drawing penalties, and forcing opponents off their game. That's all. No one's scared.

How about answering the question instead of nitpicking one part of it that's already been discussed and is already clearly a matter of disputed opinion around here?

Does what Tom Wilson and any other physical player with his skills in hitting and forechecking--however you want to describe it-- ADD value if someone like Kuz does it?

 

[BobRouse]

I haven't really put on effort about the whole expansion draft and the Vegas situation so i don't know which guys are exempt so i'm not going to go out guessing but there are some good young goalies in the league. Korpisalo, Domingue and guys like that.

They are propably not better than Grubauer but just saying that if they are staring at the decision between Grubauer + skater from Arizona, or Domingue + skater from Capitals, they might pick the latter and take the slightly worse goalie.

If i'm Vegas i'm hoping for Murray. Ben Bishop as the Plan B. Plan C is put less value on goaltending, and take guy like Niemi or Lehtonen for example in return for getting a pick and then drafting your own future goalie. But they have lots of options there. Guys like Mason and Neuvirth are UFA's too and one of them will likely need a team. Brian Elliott might be available at the expansion draft.

Guys like Elliot, Fleury (he'll probably waive to be exposed), Neimi/Lehtonen, Budaj, etc etc are all older and/or have warts.

Its going to come down to Raanta and Grubauer based on what I saw. Unless McPhee wants to do someone a favor and pick up an older expensive contract like Fleury/Rinne or grab Varlamov (another expensive downward trending option - one who didn't end so well with GMGM)

Vegas at most can afford $3 mil per player they pick on average and chances are they don't want to be a cap team. Knowing GMGM he is going to pick the youngest team he possibly can and its wishful thinking around the league that Vegas will snag their unwanted bloated contracts.

The goalies available in expansion are mostly straight garbage.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'd be surprised if GMGM went for Wilson over Grubauer. There's liking a player and there's letting it compromise decision-making. Grubauer is the better asset at the very least and likely helps make them competitive sooner. Vegas won't fast-track to longer-term detriment but they are going to want to ice a competitive product next season. Goaltending obviously is a key part of that, particularly since they probably won't be a high-scoring team.

I'd be marginally surprised. You're assuming that GMGM wants to rush to field a competitive team (btw what's their definition of competitive?). Personally I think what we've heard from Ownership down on that subject is pure marketing. I bet GMGM would be happy picking in the top-3 the next 3 years, hopefully snagging a franchise level player or two, while developing other players and building the farm system up.

Wilson is young and marketable to the fans TODAY. He's also a GMGM pick....hard to say where his thoughts could be on Wilson or Grubby. If the deciding factor is the player vs. player rating TODAY, it's Grubby for sure.

 

[g00n]

Even though gmgm drafted Wilson I think he did so grudgingly based on feedback that the team needed more "grit" and toughness. McPhee may have started out looking for 2-way power forward prospects like Sutherby and Pettinger but eventually he REALLY loved PMDs and finesse players.

IMO gmgm is going to look to build a fast, puck-moving team no matter what and then add a few big names so there's something for the marquee in Vegas. I don't think Wilson or Orpik fit his gameplan. Skill wise Orlov does fit but there's bad history there.

Grubauer's vulnerability probably depends on how the team finishes and how Gruby looks down the stretch. A goaltender who has his name on the Cup and has been an excellent backup for a Vezina winner is a good angle and OK selling point. Especially if McPhee's looking for a significant youth movement he can sell and parlay into at least 5-10 years of job security.

 

[Langway]

I'd be marginally surprised. You're assuming that GMGM wants to rush to field a competitive team (btw what's their definition of competitive?). Personally I think what we've heard from Ownership down on that subject is pure marketing. I bet GMGM would be happy picking in the top-3 the next 3 years, hopefully snagging a franchise level player or two, while developing other players and building the farm system up.

Wilson is young and marketable to the fans TODAY. He's also a GMGM pick....hard to say where his thoughts could be on Wilson or Grubby. If the deciding factor is the player vs. player rating TODAY, it's Grubby for sure.

I don't think Wilson moves the needle much. Maybe if he played up the lineup ala Lucic a few years ago and brought a bit more to the table. If GMGM had total say maybe he'd tank for a few years but I doubt they will. I think ownership wants the buzz of at least a halfway decent team. They may not have the horses up front absent some really savvy deals or lucking out in the lottery but in every other area they ought to be able to quickly build the foundation of at least a respectable team. Leadership may be an understated quality they'll need to add but if they add someone stabilizing like Julien behind the bench they could be decent pretty quickly.

One way or another I think Grubauer is quickly destined to get a shot elsewhere. It's just a matter of whether it's for free to Vegas or if someone pays up to give him the opportunity. There are a few back-ups or 1bs around the league that are playing themselves onto the radar for a chance like Darling in Chicago but there aren't that many younger types out there right now knocking on the door.

 

[txpd]

How about answering the question instead of nitpicking one part of it that's already been discussed and is already clearly a matter of disputed opinion around here?

Does what Tom Wilson and any other physical player with his skills in hitting and forechecking--however you want to describe it-- ADD value if someone like Kuz does it?

Seems pretty clear that it adds value to Ovechkin. BTW. Players are afraid of Ovechkin too. They are afraid of Orpik. Like NFL players are afraid of whoever the guys are that bring the pain now days. You just don't go across the middle in the NFL against certain safeties. You keep your head up with Wilson and Ov are on the ice and you don't skate laterally in the neutral zone with 44 out there.

 

[Jags]

How about answering the question instead of nitpicking

It's not nitpicking to point out hyperbole being used to oversell someone's position.

Why didn't I answer the question? Frankly, because it was pretty outlandish...

Let's put it this way...if guy like Kuznetsov started hitting more and fighting and generally scaring the **** out of the opposition like a Tom Wilson do you think that ADDS or REMOVES value?

A "guy like Kuznetsov" doesn't have the size, strength, or skills necessary to routinely fight in the NHL or scare the **** out of anyone.

Am I supposed to pretend that he could? Okay, fine, but we have to eliminate the hyperbole first -- the absurd notion that NHL players run scared from big meanies.

So in this fictional world you've conjured where Kuznetsov is 30 pounds heavier and knows how to hit provocatively and fight effectively (and where I'm sure there are faeries and unicorns and Kanye West is sane), sure, I suppose it would add to his value.

He'd go from being a tremendously skilled forward that no club would relinquish to a tremendously skilled and horrifyingly scary forward that no club would relinquish. I see the monumental difference there. You have made a very insightful, fictional point.

Let's leave aside the fact that playing that way would fundamentally compromise a lot of the things that actually make him special, because that would undermine your imaginary insight.

that's already been discussed and is already clearly a matter of disputed opinion around here?

First of all, I disagree about it being a matter of opinion. I played since I was a kid up through 3 years of college, and I can't say I ever had the impression that someone was scared of an "enforcer."

Like I said, some guys would rather not go down that road, but hockey "enforcing" is a two-man game. It takes two. If a guy were to cower and run and the other guy chased him down and gave him a beating, someone would call a cop. In actuality, at worst, the "victim" in those situations goes into it with a, "Oh ****, here we go... This isn't gonna go well" attitude. You suck it up like you do every time you go to block a shot. It's way more just bracing yourself for what's coming than fear.

Sure, maybe in juniors when the game is weeding out who should play and who shouldn't, some players are really, meaningfully scared. But your suggestion that anyone at the NHL level is scared ****less of a fight is just plain silly.

Secondly, I don't appreciate the notion that I have to go back and read years of posts that happened before I started posting here to learn what's already been discussed and for some reason can never be discussed again.

I get that you have your rules, but be reasonable. Things come up in conversation. Calling me out for bringing up old discussions I wasn't here for seems odd to me.

 

[g00n]

It's right there in this thread and is a topic we're talking about today, bud. Right there in the convo you jumped into. You don't have to read years of posts and you don't have to nitpick the language to answer the question, which btw was directed to the guy I was talking to about this same subject.

The correct answer without a novel on why you don't like the question is that a physical game adds value to a player. It IS worth something. You can argue about how much and so forth all you want, that was the point.

 

[Jags]

It's right there in this thread

I know that, which is why it didn't appear to me to be something that was a settled, we-can-never-talk-about-it-again thing, as you suggested.

My apologies for the "years of posts" comment, which is more an objection I have in general here than something that should have been directed specifically at you. Because I have had that said to me here a couple times -- like "We talked about that last offseason (when I wasn't here), so go read that thread -- I did read into your comment more than I should have. Sorry.

The correct answer without a novel on why you don't like the question is that a physical game adds value to a player.

No, the correct answer to the specific question you asked is that playing that way would fundamentally ruin what makes Kuznetsov great, ultimately subtracting value.

I get the point you were trying to make, but Kuznetsov is a bad example.

 

[g00n]

I know that, which is why it didn't appear to me to be something that was a settled, we-can-never-talk-about-it-again thing, as you suggested.

My apologies for the "years of posts" comment, which is more an objection I have in general here than something that should have been directed specifically at you. Because I have had that said to me here a couple times -- like "We talked about that last offseason (when I wasn't here), so go read that thread -- I did read into your comment more than I should have. Sorry.



No, the correct answer to the specific question you asked is that playing that way would fundamentally ruin what makes Kuznetsov great, ultimately subtracting value.

I get the point you were trying to make, but Kuznetsov is a bad example.

It's typical to make a slight exaggeration in order to bring a point to the forefront and make it stand out, precisely because an exact parallel presumably carries the same level of obscurity that made the point hard to see. In other words, exaggerate the dynamic so it can be seen more easily, which means it will probably also seem unrealistic.

It's also in response to this comment (I hate having to go forensic on a thread):

There's a reason enforcers are near extinct in the NHL and it's because their enforcement qualities aren't seen as valuable compared to other qualities that help teams win.

So the hypothetical using Kuz is fine for what I'm trying to say. It illustrates, through use of imagination, that adding such elements to a player's game increases his value. The value is greater than zero. No need to dissect the phrasing or extrapolate whether or not Kuz could do such things. Insert whoever. Just add the aforementioned physical abilities, then think about what that does to a player's value.

Greater than zero effect? Even significant in some cases, if possible?

Now how hard is that to add so someone who's already a goal scorer? Imagine if you have a guy with those physical tools that's young and still has the potential to throw in a few goals at a high 3rd or low 2nd line production rate. That's a pretty valuable chip. Yet the perception some have is that he's way overpaid and brings little to the table.

Earlier in the year I wouldn't have minded if he was traded along with whoever else. In the last few months all boats have risen with the tide and I'm not so sure about scuttling anything just yet.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I don't think Wilson moves the needle much. Maybe if he played up the lineup ala Lucic a few years ago and brought a bit more to the table. If GMGM had total say maybe he'd tank for a few years but I doubt they will. I think ownership wants the buzz of at least a halfway decent team. They may not have the horses up front absent some really savvy deals or lucking out in the lottery but in every other area they ought to be able to quickly build the foundation of at least a respectable team. Leadership may be an understated quality they'll need to add but if they add someone stabilizing like Julien behind the bench they could be decent pretty quickly.

One way or another I think Grubauer is quickly destined to get a shot elsewhere. It's just a matter of whether it's for free to Vegas or if someone pays up to give him the opportunity. There are a few back-ups or 1bs around the league that are playing themselves onto the radar for a chance like Darling in Chicago but there aren't that many younger types out there right now knocking on the door.

That the other thing. In Vegas Wilson probably is gifted a top-6 spot. It's a development dream.

I think it's optimistic to think they're likely to make the playoffs before 3-5 years. It all depends on the bounce on the draft ping pong balls IMO. Any surefire franchise stars coming out in the next 2 years to make them credible more quickly IF they get lucky?

Grubby's time is coming for sure and it's definitely somewhere else. If McPhee can get a capable goalie elsewhere and Wilson is higher ranked than say another team's unprotected 1b player, it's not a stretch to see Wilson go. Not saying he's option 1, but maybe Grubby isn't either.

 

[Jags]

No need to dissect the phrasing or extrapolate whether or not Kuz could do such things. Insert whoever. Just add the aforementioned physical abilities, then think about what that does to a player's value.

Sure, but I think the question is whether it has value on its own. If that's all a player does, is that player worthwhile?

And I should preface this by saying I like Tom Wilson. I think it's way too early to write off the idea that he could evolve more offensively. Now that he's added considerable forecheck and PK skill to his game, I think he'a very uniquely valuable player.

But those that argue that a guy with this much time in the NHL should be able to contribute more on offense DO have a point. And there are those fans that don't really see or appreciate anything but "moar goalz" and think he's a worthless goon. I disagree with them, of course, but I think we all agree it'd be nice to see him score more.

So the hypothetical using Kuz is fine for what I'm trying to say. It illustrates, through use of imagination, that adding such elements to a player's game increases his value.

It doesn't though. If Kuz added that much oomph to his physical game -- so much that he'd "scare the ****" out of people -- he would, just like Tom Wilson, often find himself either completely out of or behind the play.

There aren't any lanky, 190lb guys out there with that kind of snarl. At best, you're hypothetically turning Kuznetsov into Marchand -- turning a guy we love into a schmuck.

The point you want to make about Wilson isn't that Kuznetsov might be able to add "hitman" to his resume. It's that sometimes Wilson-types -- pests and goons big and small -- figure out how to score, too. Once upon a time, "Holy ****, I can't believe Chris Simon scored 29 goals," was something analysts worldwide found themselves thinking.

This team has a long history of physically imposing and/or maddeningly pesky players that could score. Our current marquee guy is one of them. You don't have to fabricate fundamentally unsound imaginary scenarios to make this point about Tom Wilson...

 

[txpd]

but we have to eliminate the hyperbole first -- the absurd notion that NHL players run scared from big meanies.
.

You apparently have no idea what you are talking about. Quarterbacks that get hit hard throw the ball before they should to avoid getting hit. Its fear. Wide receivers that are trying to catch a pass across the middle are afraid of certain defensive backs for how they hit. Race car drivers talk all the time about the shakes they get after qualifying when they ride the entire lap at a dangerous track on the edge. The shakes are fear. They are ****ing scared!!!!

So yea. I'd say that Lubo is afraid of Wilson. I would say that Lindros is afraid of Stevens. Courage is about overcoming the fear. Not the lack of it.

Edit: I had an odd cardiac medical event during qualifying for my race at Watkins Glen last May. It was so bad that I had to pull off the track half way around and get out of the car to get help. When I was able to get back in the car a couple of weeks ago at Homestead for the first few laps I was scared to death. I am usually pretty good on the courage front but I was shaking.

 

[g00n]

Sure, but I think the question is whether it has value on its own. If that's all a player does, is that player worthwhile?

And I should preface this by saying I like Tom Wilson. I think it's way too early to write off the idea that he could evolve more offensively. Now that he's added considerable forecheck and PK skill to his game, I think he'a very uniquely valuable player.

But those that argue that a guy with this much time in the NHL should be able to contribute more on offense DO have a point. And there are those fans that don't really see or appreciate anything but "moar goalz" and think he's a worthless goon. I disagree with them, of course, but I think we all agree it'd be nice to see him score more.



It doesn't though. If Kuz added that much oomph to his physical game -- so much that he'd "scare the ****" out of people -- he would, just like Tom Wilson, often find himself either completely out of or behind the play.

There aren't any lanky, 190lb guys out there with that kind of snarl. At best, you're hypothetically turning Kuznetsov into Marchand -- turning a guy we love into a schmuck.

The point you want to make about Wilson isn't that Kuznetsov might be able to add "hitman" to his resume. It's that sometimes Wilson-types -- pests and goons big and small -- figure out how to score, too. Once upon a time, "Holy ****, I can't believe Chris Simon scored 29 goals," was something analysts worldwide found themselves thinking.

This team has a long history of physically imposing and/or maddeningly pesky players that could score. Our current marquee guy is one of them. You don't have to fabricate fundamentally unsound imaginary scenarios to make this point about Tom Wilson...

and yet, here we are

 

[RandyHolt]

And that's all she wrote

Has George ever put together a roster that didn't have a tough guy?

I think the playoff teams should be afforded one less protected slot, or the teams that miss the playoffs, one more.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Teams that miss have less to protect lol!

 

[Jags]

You apparently have no idea what you are talking about.

He said Tom Wilson scares NHL players ****less.

That isn't true. It's hyperbole.

Comparing the basic, oftentimes painful parts of the game -- getting punched, blocking a shot, taking a check -- that players learn to set aside as children to the natural, human reactions to severe, traumatic injury and cardiac events is just more hyperbole. It's not in any way an apt comparison.

No one's running terrified from Tom Wilson. There isn't a guy in the league that wouldn't square off with him if he seriously provoked them. It's a basic, fundamental, everyday part of the game.

Again, I played this game through my junior year of college. I'm not sure I ever found it courageous to participate in a hockey fight or block a shot. That you would describe it that way is semantics. It's not the difference between you being an expert and me being a moron.

Blocking a slapshot is a little nutty. Catching that pass over the middle is crazy. Driving a car at 150mph+ is nucking futs. People learn to block those shots and catch those passes; to minimize the risk and endure the pain. Racing cars is achieving a level of mastery at something that allows you to see beyond the insanity of it.

Yes, there's fear inherent in all of that, but those are the things filed away before anyone laces up skates, steps foot on a field, or climbs into a racecar.

No one that steps on the ice in the NHL is afraid of the basic pains of the game. Tom Wilson isn't "scaring the ****" out of anyone. Your love of hyperbole doesn't change that.

 

[txpd]

No one that steps on the ice in the NHL is afraid of the basic pains of the game. Tom Wilson isn't "scaring the ****" out of anyone. Your love of hyperbole doesn't change that.

the basic pains of the game?

 

[Jags]

You're absolutely right. What really sells it is how all the Avs ran screaming into their dressing room and refused to play against Wilson ever again. It was a tragic night that changed Colorado forever...

It was a big hit. There are lots of them. You think Nikita is scared to face Wilson again, or that he just cursed himself for putting his head down and getting blown up embarrassingly for little reason?

You honestly think the statement "Tom Wilson scares NHL players ****less" isn't hyperbolic?

 

[RandyHolt]

Willy scared an Isle DMan (Leddy?) into passing the puck to him out front, to avoid a hit. in a playoff game no less. A game or 2 after destroying Viz. I have never seen any player ever pull that off. Heck, not even Ovi gets Dmen to do that.

 

[Jags]

Willy scared an Isle DMan (Leddy?) into passing the puck to him out front, to avoid a hit. in a playoff game no less. A game or 2 after destroying Viz. I have never seen any player ever pull that off. Heck, not even Ovi gets Dmen to do that.

Here again with the exaggeration. That's much more the type of bonehead pass you see once or twice in damn near every game than anything remotely like, "Here! Take it! Just pweaze don't hurt me!!"

It takes putting the homer glasses on to see it that way.

Man, the length you guys'll go to to avoid admitting a simple case of hyperbole.

Yeah, Wilson scares 'em all ****less. Oh, how they flee in terror...

The guy can hit like a truck, no question. And everyone tries to avoid that all the time, from every player, because getting hit isn't productive. No one is scared ****less.

 

[BobRouse]

And that's all she wrote

Has George ever put together a roster that didn't have a tough guy?

I think the playoff teams should be afforded one less protected slot, or the teams that miss the playoffs, one more.

"We're not running a Sunday School here" GMGM on the signing of THE DONALD

He also basically guaranteed Stephen Peat a roster spot when Peat decided he had enough of hockey.

Willy scared an Isle DMan (Leddy?) into passing the puck to him out front, to avoid a hit. in a playoff game no less. A game or 2 after destroying Viz. I have never seen any player ever pull that off. Heck, not even Ovi gets Dmen to do that.

And Yandle too in the next series. Yandle was utterly scared the entire series as Wilson was after him time and time again.