Speculation: These young Leafs Get branded for taking Boston 7 games from being down 3-1???????

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
Gardiner may be the best example of how stats will never, ever tell the whole story about what a player actually is.
So what is it that the stats miss, in your opinion? What is it that makes him put up great results in big minutes year after year regardless of partner, without it being a testament to his own ability?

I'm genuinely trying to understand the reasoning here. He's an awful player who gets results like a great player, and the only constant is him.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,840
51,501
We have our very own Mitch Marner as a practical example.

You really have to wonder what the rest of the team thinks watching Mitch Marner get in there and take the punishment while gutless pukes like Gardiner, JVR and Nylander avoid contact like the plague.

JVR and Gardiner are proven to be pretty soft, and I'm disappointed in Nylander, but hopefully he grows up and grows a pair. Matthews also needs to cut out the Lady Byng stuff. He needs to make it tough for the opposition to shut him down, not be a gentle target.

Proud of Mitch and his motor, he's really matured a lot this year.
 

IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
15,461
24,487
So what is it that the stats miss, in your opinion? What is it that makes him put up great results in big minutes year after year regardless of partner, without it being a testament to his own ability?

I'm genuinely trying to understand the reasoning here. He's an awful player who gets results like a great player, and the only constant is him.
I don't know, it confuses me. I've looked at all his stats. His GA/60, CA/60, GF%, CF% etc... are all in line with being a #1 defensemen.

We do not get the stability of a #1 defensemen with this guy on the ice. We've all watched him for 5 years now in Toronto and we all see his defensive gaffes year in and year out. The stats tell me one thing, yet the eyes tell me another thing. That is why I concluded that stats can never tell you the whole story about a player until you actually watch them.

Trust me, I have no bias against Gardiner. I'm just calling things how I see them. You've watched him over the last 5 years too, you've seen how ridiculously unstable and unreliable he can be - stats be damned. This isn't mean to be an appeal to anecdote.
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
17,317
4,121
NHL player factory
I don't know, it confuses me. I've looked at all his stats. His GA/60, CA/60, GF%, CF% etc... are all in line with being a #1 defensemen.

We do not get the stability of a #1 defensemen with this guy on the ice. We've all watched him for 5 years now in Toronto and we all see his defensive gaffes year in and year out. The stats tell me one thing, yet the eyes tell me another thing. That is why I concluded that stats can never tell you the whole story about a player until you actually watch them.

Trust me, I have no bias against Gardiner. I'm just calling things how I see them. You've watched him over the last 5 years too, you've seen how ridiculously unstable and unreliable he can be - stats be damned. This isn't mean to be an appeal to anecdote.
Home work for you watch a d man in each playoff game. Watch who think is the best one and see just how many times you think what the hell is he doing. It is interesting as most make lots of questionable plays each game.

Hockey is a game of mistakes and intimidation and the team that does that best each game wins most of the time. Less mistakes and intimidate your opponents will win you games.

Physical intimidation as well as speed intimidation will hold a team in good stead.
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
17,317
4,121
NHL player factory
Home work for you watch a d man in each playoff game. Watch who think is the best one and see just how many times you think what the hell is he doing. It is interesting as most make lots of questionable plays each game.

Hockey is a game of mistakes and intimidation and the team that does that best each game wins most of the time. Less mistakes and intimidate your opponents will win you games.

Physical intimidation as well as speed intimidation will hold a team in good stead.

Boston did a better job then us.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
I don't know, it confuses me. I've looked at all his stats. His GA/60, CA/60, GF%, CF% etc... are all in line with being a #1 defensemen.

We do not get the stability of a #1 defensemen with this guy on the ice. We've all watched him for 5 years now in Toronto and we all see his defensive gaffes year in and year out. The stats tell me one thing, yet the eyes tell me another thing. That is why I concluded that stats can never tell you the whole story about a player until you actually watch them.

Trust me, I have no bias against Gardiner. I'm just calling things how I see them. You've watched him over the last 5 years too, you've seen how ridiculously unstable and unreliable he can be - stats be damned. This isn't mean to be an appeal to anecdote.
Yeah I hear you. I see it a bit different though, in two parts. First, I think what it means is that his flaws hit us harder in our impressions than it impacts his value on ice. Otherwise it would have a profound effect somewhere. Second, I think the main issue isn't how good he is usually, it's that when he's bad he can be such a disaster. I like to use reverse examples with forwards, so I'll use one here. Think of a forward who is not much of a scorer, but with some regularity he has games where he simply takes over. Such a player would be more valuable than his season stats proclaim, because he has that ability to step up and lead when others don't. Gardiner can be the same but the opposite way.

I've never been one of those that proclaim him as a top pairing or #1 d-man, despite the stats. I like to judge players based on their context, and Gardiner has always been a guy who can dominate on a second pairing. The above is also why I think his value might be less than what it is for similar players like Krug or Shattenkirk, and why I am halfway open to trading him. The thing I've been thinking about is that Gardiner's flaws is a problem when there are few options. With Dermott coming up we have a left side that is among the strongest in the league, and I think that means that we can limit or unleash Gardiner depending on what form he is in. All we need is for Dermott to take that step to becoming a worthwhile option. Then we could have him as RD normally, but if Gardiner is struggling we can move him to Jake's spot while he slides down one pairing.
 

MikeBabchuk

Mike Bobcat
May 24, 2013
1,359
12
Toronto
I agree, I get alot of butt hurt comments after game 7- he cost us game 7.

Oh come on. No he didn't. You don't blame one D man. He was brutal on the Debrusk goal but he didn't make Andersen let it squeak in, and he didn't make softie floaters go in from the blue line either.

Gardiner has to be less soft. One thing about this team though is that almost everyone is soft. It's kind of how the team is built, like it or not.

I would say the only players who I can say are absolutely not soft are Hyman, Rielly, Polak (although he sucks in so many ways and is gone), Martin (doesn't play), Brown (relatively speaking), and Marner (relatively speaking).

We are a pretty soft team.
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
23,736
11,002
Home work for you watch a d man in each playoff game. Watch who think is the best one and see just how many times you think what the hell is he doing. It is interesting as most make lots of questionable plays each game.

Hockey is a game of mistakes and intimidation and the team that does that best each game wins most of the time. Less mistakes and intimidate your opponents will win you games.

Physical intimidation as well as speed intimidation will hold a team in good stead.
Successful teams also have the ability to turn it up a notch.
We don't.
We are waiting to see if our young guys develop it and the own rentals never had it.
The whole team needs to be able to find the extra gear in crisis and either take over, lock it down, attack in waves, etc.
 

ANDI P IS CUTE

Registered User
Oct 7, 2009
2,616
1,027
Windsor On
Oh come on. No he didn't. You don't blame one D man. He was brutal on the Debrusk goal but he didn't make Andersen let it squeak in, and he didn't make softie floaters go in from the blue line either.

Gardiner has to be less soft. One thing about this team though is that almost everyone is soft. It's kind of how the team is built, like it or not.

I would say the only players who I can say are absolutely not soft are Hyman, Rielly, Polak (although he sucks in so many ways and is gone), Martin (doesn't play), Brown (relatively speaking), and Marner (relatively speaking).

We are a pretty soft team.

-5.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keanu Reeves

Duffman955

Registered User
Mar 4, 2010
14,612
3,891
Oh come on. No he didn't. You don't blame one D man. He was brutal on the Debrusk goal but he didn't make Andersen let it squeak in, and he didn't make softie floaters go in from the blue line either.

Gardiner has to be less soft. One thing about this team though is that almost everyone is soft. It's kind of how the team is built, like it or not.

I would say the only players who I can say are absolutely not soft are Hyman, Rielly, Polak (although he sucks in so many ways and is gone), Martin (doesn't play), Brown (relatively speaking), and Marner (relatively speaking).

We are a pretty soft team.

Brown is pretty soft.

I feel on most nights, kadri is our only physical player.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keanu Reeves

Ratboy

I made a funny!
Jul 15, 2009
16,855
3,343
I don't know, it confuses me. I've looked at all his stats. His GA/60, CA/60, GF%, CF% etc... are all in line with being a #1 defensemen.

We do not get the stability of a #1 defensemen with this guy on the ice. We've all watched him for 5 years now in Toronto and we all see his defensive gaffes year in and year out. The stats tell me one thing, yet the eyes tell me another thing. That is why I concluded that stats can never tell you the whole story about a player until you actually watch them.

Trust me, I have no bias against Gardiner. I'm just calling things how I see them. You've watched him over the last 5 years too, you've seen how ridiculously unstable and unreliable he can be - stats be damned. This isn't mean to be an appeal to anecdote.
This is just it, it's a case where the stats don't add up. If you watch the games the guy is not reliable, but he can skate well, and has skill. His hockey IQ is garbage, I don't care what anyone says. He usually waits too long and misses the simple play which results in chances against.

On the whole though, we obviously have a very potent offence, but defence is still our major issue. I'm interested to see how this is addressed this offseason.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
4,600
Toronto
So what is it that the stats miss, in your opinion? What is it that makes him put up great results in big minutes year after year regardless of partner, without it being a testament to his own ability?

I'm genuinely trying to understand the reasoning here. He's an awful player who gets results like a great player, and the only constant is him.

Is he clutch? That is what makes a stand out for me.

Gardiner is not a terrible player, but -5 in a game 7 doesn't make you a stand out. Yes there were other key players who didn't show up for game 7 too.
 

Drytoast

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
6,334
4,498
I hated Gardiner but considering how shitty he was treated on social media and the like, I'm actually cheering for the guy now. I want him to succeed. Until otherwise, he's our Leaf. He puts on our jersey and he tries to do his best for us.
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
17,317
4,121
NHL player factory
Is he clutch? That is what makes a stand out for me.

Gardiner is not a terrible player, but -5 in a game 7 doesn't make you a stand out. Yes there were other key players who didn't show up for game 7 too.

He has been lights out in all playoff games since being here and game 7 he has an off game it happens to every player. Him and Rielly are the only two D man who step up each play off game. Haisney was clearly our worse yet takes no grief from anyone on here.
 

pucky

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
8,079
172
He has been lights out in all playoff games since being here and game 7 he has an off game it happens to every player. Him and Rielly are the only two D man who step up each play off game. Haisney was clearly our worse yet takes no grief from anyone on here.
Lights out?!? LMAO! Gardiner is a mistake machine and all the analysts, regardless of network, pointed out how the opposing teams would shoot pucks in on his side. Gardiner can't play defence and his only attribute is as PMD, which he barely excels at as he prone to giveaways, and the PP (assuming one of his shots actually hits the net).

He's a liability, for the most part. He 'had one bad game?!?' BS! He had one bad game in which his mistakes were worse than usual. Often, Andersen bails them out but in that particular game, he wasn't able to. If the Leafs are going to improve at all, they must make some drastic changes to their D core and they need some more scoring ability which can fight through checks. Nylander and Matthews, to name two, just couldn't fight through their checks. The supporting cast will need to be re-examined for next year as JVR/Bozak and a number of other forwards could (probably will be?) be gone. But, it's the defence that is priority number one. They are too weak there and the constant games with 40+ shots against proves it. The D has been a problem area for many consecutive seasons but the management only puts bandaids on it. If they're going to have a new GM, he needs to make his mark by addressing this problem instead of just 'patching it up.'
 

pucky

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
8,079
172
I hated Gardiner but considering how ****ty he was treated on social media and the like, I'm actually cheering for the guy now. I want him to succeed. Until otherwise, he's our Leaf. He puts on our jersey and he tries to do his best for us.
LMAO. :rolleyes: :help:
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
This is just it, it's a case where the stats don't add up. If you watch the games the guy is not reliable, but he can skate well, and has skill. His hockey IQ is garbage, I don't care what anyone says. He usually waits too long and misses the simple play which results in chances against.

On the whole though, we obviously have a very potent offence, but defence is still our major issue. I'm interested to see how this is addressed this offseason.
First, I'd like to point out that by saying "I don't care what anyone says", you are basically just confirming to everybody that you're more interested in thinking the way you do than being right. If it was the other way around, you'd welcome opposing views.

Anyway. I agree that he waits too long and gets himself into trouble, and it does lead to chances against. But even with those included, he doesn't see a lot of chances against. So obviously, that flaw must be weighed up by his positives. And shouldn't he, like any player, be judged on the whole picture, and not just the ugly parts? It's kind of like having a goalscorer that is awful at redirections. Sure it lessens his value as a goalscorer since he won't be as dangerous on point shots and around the net, but if he still scores 30 then he's obviously a good goalscorer nonetheless.
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
17,317
4,121
NHL player factory
Lights out?!? LMAO! Gardiner is a mistake machine and all the analysts, regardless of network, pointed out how the opposing teams would shoot pucks in on his side. Gardiner can't play defence and his only attribute is as PMD, which he barely excels at as he prone to giveaways, and the PP (assuming one of his shots actually hits the net).

He's a liability, for the most part. He 'had one bad game?!?' BS! He had one bad game in which his mistakes were worse than usual. Often, Andersen bails them out but in that particular game, he wasn't able to. If the Leafs are going to improve at all, they must make some drastic changes to their D core and they need some more scoring ability which can fight through checks. Nylander and Matthews, to name two, just couldn't fight through their checks. The supporting cast will need to be re-examined for next year as JVR/Bozak and a number of other forwards could (probably will be?) be gone. But, it's the defence that is priority number one. They are too weak there and the constant games with 40+ shots against proves it. The D has been a problem area for many consecutive seasons but the management only puts bandaids on it. If they're going to have a new GM, he needs to make his mark by addressing this problem instead of just 'patching it up.'
Please support your opinion with facts. I will wait but it will be a long wait as all stats refute your opinion about Gardiner.
 

Ratboy

I made a funny!
Jul 15, 2009
16,855
3,343
First, I'd like to point out that by saying "I don't care what anyone says", you are basically just confirming to everybody that you're more interested in thinking the way you do than being right. If it was the other way around, you'd welcome opposing views.

Anyway. I agree that he waits too long and gets himself into trouble, and it does lead to chances against. But even with those included, he doesn't see a lot of chances against. So obviously, that flaw must be weighed up by his positives. And shouldn't he, like any player, be judged on the whole picture, and not just the ugly parts? It's kind of like having a goalscorer that is awful at redirections. Sure it lessens his value as a goalscorer since he won't be as dangerous on point shots and around the net, but if he still scores 30 then he's obviously a good goalscorer nonetheless.
I got no hate for you bro. I actually find your analysis quite interesting.

The guy is just stupid. I know he has tools, I know the possession numbers are good.

I just think the guy is a very, very dumb hockey player.

That's my opinion. I know you back him, I know he's your guy. He just confounds me with his decision making.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps he is a good player. I just don't have any confidence in him.

That's all. Have a good summer. I hope we get some good news in the offseason. We're all on the same side here, regardless of how we interpret specific players.

Peace
 

The Best Leafs Ever

Registered User
Feb 28, 2017
2,147
781
There are only winners and losers, there's no in between. Losers get all the crap and criticism in the world while winners enjoy the envy. We were on the losing side so I don't care if media dumps on them. When you play like some gassed 40 years old then get ready to get smashed by the media. It is good if media really drives away the likes of Jake ****ing Gardiner. I would watch their show just for the sake they drove him outta town.
 

The Apologist

Apologizing for Leaf garbage since 1979
Oct 16, 2007
12,208
2,923
Leaf Nation Hell
Home work for you watch a d man in each playoff game. Watch who think is the best one and see just how many times you think what the hell is he doing. It is interesting as most make lots of questionable plays each game.

Hockey is a game of mistakes and intimidation and the team that does that best each game wins most of the time. Less mistakes and intimidate your opponents will win you games.

Physical intimidation as well as speed intimidation will hold a team in good stead.
Brilliantly said. Honestly, more people need to do this. While I don't agree with just how much of a portrait 'advanced' stats actually paint, confirmation bias is much worse.

Although I would say that the timing of Jake's tend to be terrible. He gets rattled...
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->