The top 10 trades of all time - no order

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Foppa2118

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CoupeStanley said:
Rejean Houle traded Roy... not Savard

The day Savard was fired, he did trade Roy to Colorado for Fiset and Nolan, the trade was cancelled since he wasnt the GM anymore..

Savard beleived that Theodore was the goalie of the future and he just need someone to take over Roy for a couple of years before Jose was ready.

Your right, I didn't recal Savard being the guy either, but I was going by that quote from ESPN. http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/bestpostseason.html I should have know they'd screw that up. I'm not sure about the Theodore thing though, because I've never heard that, and I had heard that they thought highly of Thibault, and were hoping he could be their next franchise goalie. I suppose that could be true though, I don't know. I'm sure you have heard more about the Habs, than I have. If it is, they had some good instincts. It's kinda shocking though, that they wouldn't trade for some quality forwards or defensman, if they were only expecting Thibault to fill the gap until Jose. Rucinsky didn't really have his good years until he got to Montreal, and he was 25 when he traded them, so I doubt they thought that much of him. Even though Houle was at a disadvantage, because everyone knew he was trying to get rid of Roy fast, I still think he could have got some better players, if they were only interested in a goalie to hold the fort for a couple years, and thought they could just trade him later. Why not go for some stud players, when you have the best goalie in the league, as a trading piece.
 

MiamiScreamingEagles

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Maybe not a top ten trade in terms of helping both squads but worthy of mention: Boston sending Brad McCrimmon to Philadelphia for Pete Peeters (6-9-82)

The Flyers were in dire need of D men (major injuries to Jim Watson and Bob Dailey) and McCrimmon spent five seasons there as a solid player eventually teamed with Mark Howe anchoring perhaps the Flyers best ever D-man combo. The Flyers made room for the goalie tandem of rookie Pelle Lindbergh, who made Second Team All-Star the first season after the trade, and Bob Froese, who finished second to Peeters in GAA

Boston needed a goalie. Peeters spent 3-plus seasons in Boston and was fantastic in his first season there (Vezina winner, led the NHL in wins, shutouts, GAA and was named to the all-star team and was a First Team All-Star) --took the Bruins to the Conference Finals that season (He was 9-8 that first playoff season with the Bruins then went 0-4 the next two playoff years). The prior season Mike Moffat, who played in just two regular season games, was their playoff goalie after Roggie Vachon and Marco Baron played nearly all the regular season. Peeters was 69-27-11 in his first two season with Boston then slumped to 22-30-5 in the next 1-plus seasons. Boston also had drafted D-man Gord Kluzak in 1982 with the top overall pick (eventually had multiple knee injuries that decimated his career).
 
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salzy

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Foppa2118 said:
How was Philly the winner of that trade, before the Stevens hit? I would trade Lindros straight up for Forsberg.

Considering your moniker, you can hardly call yourself objective. Take away the injuries and there is no comparison between those 2 players.

Foppa2118 said:
Plus if you want to look at it a little deeper, Steve Duchesne was traded for Bob Bassen, Garth Butcher and Ron Sutter. Not very impressive at first look, but Garth Butcher was traded for Wendel Clark, and later on Clark was traded for Claude Lemieux, who played very well for the Avs, especially in the 96' cup run.

Stretching the truth quite a bit there, aren't you? Garth Butcher was part of the trade for Wendel Clark, but of course the Nords had to give up a little 100+ point center named Mats Sundin also.
 

salzy

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Foppa2118 said:
No offense but that isn't very much of an argument against. I'll give you the Sundin point, I forgot to mention that, ( I tried to mention everyone involved in the trades that I listed) but that is a miniscul part of the trade

HUH!? He's been one of the top scorers in the NHL over the last 15 years. I would hardly call Sundin a miniscule part of the trade to Toronto. He was the centerpiece - everyone knows that.

Foppa2118 said:
there's no reason to say that Comcast wouldn't have eventually bought them, or some other rich owner would have purchased them, especially since they have a storied franchise, good fanbase, and a healthy market. I think they would take that trade back in a second if they could.

No, they wouldn't. That trade turned them from a team that missed the playoffs 5 years in a row to a team that is a contender every year and sells more tickets than pretty much every team in the league. The FUC is really the house that Eric built.
 

salzy

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John Flyers Fan said:
The avalanche won the deal, but it isn't nearly as lopsided as some make it out to be. The Avs were well on there way to becoming an elite team before the Lindros trade ... and Forsberg wasn't what put them over the top ... it was the Roy deal.

Exactly. Obviously when you finish last or near last as many years in a row as the Nords did, you are going to be able to stock a pretty nice team. No doubt in my mind a team with Lindros-Sakic-Sundin-Lapointe down the middle would have won a Cup or 2. The thing is, with Eric they probably would have been able to stay in Quebec.
 

salzy

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Foppa2118 said:
Jocelyn Thibault was the main part of the Roy deal, so the Philly deal also helped that.

So what? Montreal was desperate to deal Roy after he refused to play for them again. If Thibault wasn't part of the Avs franchise, they could've just as easily sent Fiset as part of the deal (also French Canadian). They would have just had to increase other part of the deal. It's a moot point, though. If Lindros had stayed with Quebec, they'd have probably never left the province and Montreal would never have traded Roy to the Nords.

Foppa2118 said:
Also, Lindros helped them sell tickets, and get a new arena right away, but I think with Forsberg on their team a few years later, and a much deeper team with Ricci, Rucinsky, Simon, Hextal, and even Steve Duchesne, plus the extra $15 million they would have kept, they would have been a very competative team, and thus very popular with the fans, so I think they would have found a deep pocketed owner, and a new arena eventually. It probably just would have taken a few more years, and I doubt the franchise would have folded in that time, so I don't think there is that much of a difference. In fact, with all those players in their lineup, they might actually have been able to win a cup or two, which would have brought them even more money, and been even better for their franchise.

Without Lindros, they would never have had the marquee player that allowed them to presell their luxury suites and get the new arena built. I know you like Forsberg, but he is simply not the kind of player that sells out arenas.
 

salzy

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Foppa2118 said:
We'll have to agree to disagree then on Roy going to Colrado anyway. I don't think that Roy had that much pull for Savard to trade him for just anybody, or without the type of goalie they wanted in return.

Jeez, Serge Savard wasn't even Montreal's GM! Why don't you just say "Colorado won the trade in a landslide because I like Peter Forsberg and that's that"?
 

salzy

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CoupeStanley said:
The day Savard was fired, he did trade Roy to Colorado for Fiset and Nolan, the trade was cancelled since he wasnt the GM anymore..

Savard beleived that Theodore was the goalie of the future and he just need someone to take over Roy for a couple of years before Jose was ready.

Wow. That would have been a hell of a trade for the Habs (compared to the gun-to-their-heads deal they eventually made).
 

salzy

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Foppa2118 said:
I'm not sure about the Theodore thing though, because I've never heard that, and I had heard that they thought highly of Thibault, and were hoping he could be their next franchise goalie. I suppose that could be true though, I don't know. I'm sure you have heard more about the Habs, than I have. If it is, they had some good instincts. It's kinda shocking though, that they wouldn't trade for some quality forwards or defensman, if they were only expecting Thibault to fill the gap until Jose.

It was more about putting a face on the trade so they had something to sell to the Montreal's fans. They were able to say "Yes, we traded the legendary St. Patrick, but look - here comes the next one". It really didn't matter if it ever panned out or not, it was nice PR.

Foppa2118 said:
Rucinsky didn't really have his good years until he got to Montreal, and he was 25 when he traded them, so I doubt they thought that much of him. Even though Houle was at a disadvantage, because everyone knew he was trying to get rid of Roy fast, I still think he could have got some better players, if they were only interested in a goalie to hold the fort for a couple years, and thought they could just trade him later. Why not go for some stud players, when you have the best goalie in the league, as a trading piece.

You're not exactly dealing from a position of strength when your guy publicly declares that he will never play for you again. Besides, at the time Patrick Roy was not seen as the best goalie in the league or really anywhere near it. Some people actually thought he was washed up. He set out to prove them wrong and did he ever.
 

Bileur

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ES said:
Maybe too early to say, but:

Ruslan Fedotenko and 2nd rounder (traded later) to TB for 1st rounder (Joni Pitkänen)

Pitkänen had good rookie year while Fedotenko scored two goals in Game 7 of Stanley Cup Finals.


Good call
 

jb**

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Jagr to Wash for 3 stiffs, no matter how disappointing he was still an absolute steal
Also when he got traded to the Rangers a steal
 

jb**

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ES said:
Maybe too early to say, but:

Ruslan Fedotenko and 2nd rounder (traded later) to TB for 1st rounder (Joni Pitkänen)

Pitkänen had good rookie year while Fedotenko scored two goals in Game 7 of Stanley Cup Finals.
who is this a steal for? The Flyers in my opinion, Fedotenko is a dime a dozen player, did have a great playoff run.
 

Foppa2118

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salzy said:
Considering your moniker, you can hardly call yourself objective. Take away the injuries and there is no comparison between those 2 players.

First of all, why the hell did you waste like ten posts covering everything I said in this thread. You obviously didn't bother reading it very carefully, because if you had, you would have seen that we already covered everything you talked about, especially the Sundin issue. Second, I never said I was objective, obviously I'm not, and I mentioned that as well. However, I was trying to be as objective as I could. BTW, both Lindros and Forsberg had many injuries plagued seasons, so that can't be factored into it. I think their intangables are a bit even, so if you look at it from a stat point, in their first eight seasons in the league (which is right up until the Stevens hit) Peter out scores him, 686 to 659. I think it's quite ridiculouse to imply that Lindros is so much better than Forsberg, by saying it's no comparison if you take away the injuries. I think they were very close, but I would give Peter the edge, but like you said, I'm biased.

salzy said:
Stretching the truth quite a bit there, aren't you? Garth Butcher was part of the trade for Wendel Clark, but of course the Nords had to give up a little 100+ point center named Mats Sundin also.

Once, again it was already covered, I forgot to mention him, it wasn't intentional, and I was just connecting the dots, on how some of the players in the Philly deal, were involved in other big deals.

salzy said:
HUH!? He's been one of the top scorers in the NHL over the last 15 years. I would hardly call Sundin a miniscule part of the trade to Toronto. He was the centerpiece - everyone knows that.

I was talking about the Philly trade, it was a miniscul part of that topic. Obviously Sunding isn't a miniscul part of the Toronto trade, and you should have been able to figure out for yourself, that's not what I meant.

salzy said:
No, they wouldn't. That trade turned them from a team that missed the playoffs 5 years in a row to a team that is a contender every year and sells more tickets than pretty much every team in the league. The FUC is really the house that Eric built.

Well then we disagree. Neither one of us knows for sure, so there is no sense in getting all riled up about it. I don't see why there isn't any reason to believe they wouldn't have got that arena a few years down the road, after Forsberg was there, and they had a very strong team with Ricci, and all those other guys, who could also have been traded for a quality defensmen or forward. I think they would have had a very good chance at the cup, especially in 97' when they made it to the finals, and that could very easily have brought a new arena. Plus the extra $15 million they gave Quebec, could have signed a couple free agents in the offseason.

salzy said:
So what? Montreal was desperate to deal Roy after he refused to play for them again. If Thibault wasn't part of the Avs franchise, they could've just as easily sent Fiset as part of the deal (also French Canadian). They would have just had to increase other part of the deal. It's a moot point, though. If Lindros had stayed with Quebec, they'd have probably never left the province and Montreal would never have traded Roy to the Nords.

I'm aware Montreal was desperate to deal Roy, but I don't think that means the deal would have gone down without Thibault, and I'm not going to waste time explaining why again just because you dind't read the whole thread. It's pure speculation on both our parts, so there is no reason arguing about opinions.

salzy said:
Jeez, Serge Savard wasn't even Montreal's GM! Why don't you just say "Colorado won the trade in a landslide because I like Peter Forsberg and that's that"?

Again, already been covered. You really ought to read a whole thread, before you reply to what someone said in the middle of it. It has nothing to do with me liking Forsberg either.

salzy said:
It was more about putting a face on the trade so they had something to sell to the Montreal's fans. They were able to say "Yes, we traded the legendary St. Patrick, but look - here comes the next one". It really didn't matter if it ever panned out or not, it was nice PR.

I agree, and in a sense you are proving my point, because I don't think they could have said that with Fiset.

salzy said:
You're not exactly dealing from a position of strength when your guy publicly declares that he will never play for you again. Besides, at the time Patrick Roy was not seen as the best goalie in the league or really anywhere near it. Some people actually thought he was washed up. He set out to prove them wrong and did he ever.

This is true, but I still don't think Rucinsky and Fiset as the major parts of that deal, would have got Roy. That's just the way I look at it, and there's no way to prove either side anyway.
 

Debrincat93

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SectionX said:
Or not. I remember that Lindros totally choked in the finals vs Detroit. He had like 1 point.


he choked or the entire team choked?

nuff said, lindros was the most dominate player until he started getting banged up. I watched a few clips of him, he was completely amazing, not flashy like jagr but dominate in all aspects
 

MS

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People who are saying Thibault=Fiset in 1995 are out to lunch. In 1995, Jocelyn Thibault was considered the top young goaltender prospect in the game - the equivalent of Lehtonen/Fleury now. Top-10 pick, in the NHL at age 18, went 12-2 as a teenager in 1994-95. His trade value at the time was monstrous. Fiset was a run-of-the-mill goaltender who'd been very inconsistent in the #1 job the previous two seasons. To compare the two would be like comparing the value of Martin Biron and Kari Lehtonen in 2005.

No way in hell Roy's trade to Colorado happens without Thibault. Or if it did, there would have been substantially more going the other way in his place. Nolan, Ricci, Deadmarsh, or something along those lines.

At the time of that trade, I thought Montreal made out great. Thibault looked like a future star in net (and was actually brilliant his first year in Montreal), and it looked like they'd be set in goal for the next decade with him. Plus Kovalenko and Rucinsky were only 25 and 24 respectively, and had already proven to be productive top-6 forwards. Roy was 30 and closing in on UFA. To say that that package didn't look good at the time is revisionist history at it's finest. Not a trade Montreal would have chosen to make, but the value at the time was definitely there.
 

NYIsles1*

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This one is mentioned every year at the trade deadline.

Billy Harris and Dave Lewis to Los Angeles for Butch Goring=Four straight New York Islander championships.

Bill Torrey's trading for Colorado's #1 pick which became Pat LaFontaine was also an incredible deal.
 

Vic Rattlehead*

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jb said:
Jagr to Wash for 3 stiffs, no matter how disappointing he was still an absolute steal
Also when he got traded to the Rangers a steal
It was a salary dump.
 

free0717

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jb said:
Jagr to Wash for 3 stiffs, no matter how disappointing he was still an absolute steal
Also when he got traded to the Rangers a steal

The Jagr to the rangers remains to be seen due to a new CBA. With Jagrs salary,
it may be a bad trade for the rags

Worst trade for rags

Rick Middleton for Ken Hodge

Best trade for rags

Messier for Bernie Nichols and two stiffs
 

Classic Devil

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New Jersey Devils Trades

#1. Tom Kuvers to Toronto for the 4th overall pick in 1990 (Scott Niedermayer)
#2. Sean Burke and Eric Weinrich to Hartford for Bobby Holik and a 2nd round draft pick in 1993 (Jay Pandolfo)
#3. Brendan Morrison and Dennis Pederson to Vancouver for Alexander Mogilny
#4. Valeri Zelepukin and Bill Guerin to Edmonton for Jason Arnott and Bryan Muir.
#5. Jason Arnott, Randy McKay, and a 1st round draft pick (later traded, Dan Paille) for Joe Nieuwendyk and Jamie Langenbrunner
#6. ... wince: Jason Smith, Steve Sullivan, and Alyn McCauley to Toronto for Dave Ellet, Doug Gilmour, and a 3rd round pick (Andre Lakos)
#7. Kirk Muller and Ronald Melanson to Montreal for Stephane Richer and Tom Chorske

Not a trade, but

#8. Scott Stevens transferred to New Jersey in exchange for Brendan Shanahan... later St. Louis' tampering with Stevens would result in the Devils being able to draft Ari Ahonen and Zach Parise.
 

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MS said:
People who are saying Thibault=Fiset in 1995 are out to lunch. In 1995, Jocelyn Thibault was considered the top young goaltender prospect in the game - the equivalent of Lehtonen/Fleury now. Top-10 pick, in the NHL at age 18, went 12-2 as a teenager in 1994-95. His trade value at the time was monstrous. Fiset was a run-of-the-mill goaltender who'd been very inconsistent in the #1 job the previous two seasons. To compare the two would be like comparing the value of Martin Biron and Kari Lehtonen in 2005.

No way in hell Roy's trade to Colorado happens without Thibault. Or if it did, there would have been substantially more going the other way in his place. Nolan, Ricci, Deadmarsh, or something along those lines.

At the time of that trade, I thought Montreal made out great. Thibault looked like a future star in net (and was actually brilliant his first year in Montreal), and it looked like they'd be set in goal for the next decade with him. Plus Kovalenko and Rucinsky were only 25 and 24 respectively, and had already proven to be productive top-6 forwards. Roy was 30 and closing in on UFA. To say that that package didn't look good at the time is revisionist history at it's finest. Not a trade Montreal would have chosen to make, but the value at the time was definitely there.
At the time people were marveling how Colorado managed to keep Deadmarsh (I was one of them.) Getting Keane on top of all that also makes this a steal.

Fiset got traded to the Kings during the following off season for Eric Lacroix and a swap of firsts. Pretty good gauge of his value.
 

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NYIsles1 said:
This one is mentioned every year at the trade deadline.

Billy Harris and Dave Lewis to Los Angeles for Butch Goring=Four straight New York Islander championships.

Bill Torrey's trading for Colorado's #1 pick which became Pat LaFontaine was also an incredible deal.

Ray Miron (aka Moron) was just awful with the Colorado Rockies.

1979-Nov-02 Barry Beck traded from Colorado Rockies to New-York Rangers for Lucien DeBlois and Pat Hickey and future considerations and Dean Turner. Beck was a fan favorite during his stay in Colorado, all the players Colorado got in the deal were gone in two years. Mitigating factor: Hickey was part of the package sent to Toronto for Lanny McDOnald and Joel Quennville.

1981-Oct-01 Traded from New-York Islanders with Dave Cameron to Colorado Rockies for Round 1 pick in the 1983 draft (Pat LaFontaine) It's not like he didn't know he was going to be drafting high.

1981-Jul-21 Dwight Foster traded from Boston Bruins with Round 1 pick in the 1982 draft (Ken Daneyko) to Colorado Rockies for Round 1 pick in the 1982 draft (Gord Kluzak) and Round 2 pick in the 1982 draft (Brian Curran)The pick was the first in the 1982 draft. Kluzak was a banged up, but the next 5 picks were Brian Bellows, Gary Nylund, Ron Sutter, Scott Stevens and Phil Housley.

Another COL got Ron Andruff, Sean Shanahan and 1980 No. 1 (Paul Gagne). Andruff-Shanahan deal gave MON option, which it exercised, of switching 1980 No. 1 picks. (Sept. 13, 1976) That was the first overall in 1980, which was the bust Doug Wickenheiser. Still horrible considering the next five picked were Dave Babych, Denis Savard, Larry Murphy, Darren Veitch, and Paul Coffey. Andruff and Shannahan were both out of the league when Montreal took this pick.

Seriously, no idea why that franchise was wobbly
 

IdiotsPickedMyName*

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jtuzzi21 said:
No he wasn't. Muckalt was in the Scatchard deal to land Potvin. This was a straight up trade (Peter for Sami).


Sorry if that was a little confusing i was refering to the Yashin Trade, it was Chara, Spezza (NYI first round pick) and Bill Muckault.
 

salzy

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Foppa2118 said:
First of all, why the hell did you waste like ten posts covering everything I said in this thread. You obviously didn't bother reading it very carefully, because if you had, you would have seen that we already covered everything you talked about, especially the Sundin issue.

Because I wasn't satisfied with the way you addressed the gaping holes in your arguments. You tossed Sundin into the Lindros trade to weigh it more heavily in Quebec's favour. When you got busted, you blew it off like it was a minor point. That is a HUGE discrepancy and you were trying to get off too easy on it. If you don't like it, get your facts straight next time.

Foppa2118 said:
Second, I never said I was objective


Super, I never said you were objective either.

Foppa2118 said:
However, I was trying to be as objective as I could.

Failed.

Foppa2118 said:
BTW, both Lindros and Forsberg had many injuries plagued seasons, so that can't be factored into it.

It certainly can. Just as there is no comparison between the 2 players at their peak, there is no comparison between the severity and the frequency of the injuries they suffered and the effects they have had on their respective careers. Clearly Lindros' career has been hampered by injuries to a FAR greater extent.

Foppa2118 said:
I think their intangables are a bit even

You are completely out of your mind. Forsberg is a good all around player but is he feared? Of course not. Has he ever been feared? Of course not. Yes, he could hurt you on the score board which is scary in itself, but if we're talking about intangibles, no, they are not even 'a bit' even.

Foppa2118 said:
so if you look at it from a stat point, in their first eight seasons in the league (which is right up until the Stevens hit) Peter out scores him, 686 to 659.

Not true at all. In those 8 seasons (94-95 through 99-00) Lindros outscored Forsberg 659 to 580 - a 79 point differential. Forsberg would need nearly a full season to make up that enormous gap. AND Lindros scored a whopping 121 MORE goals than Forsberg over that period.

I don't know why you try to present facts that are so obviously incorrect. Do you honestly think you can get away with it and nobody will call you on it?

Foppa2118 said:
I think it's quite ridiculouse to imply that Lindros is so much better than Forsberg, by saying it's no comparison if you take away the injuries. I think they were very close, but I would give Peter the edge, but like you said, I'm biased.

I suppose if I lived in a fantasy land with made up statistics I might feel the same way.

Foppa2118 said:
Once, again it was already covered, I forgot to mention him, it wasn't intentional, and I was just connecting the dots, on how some of the players in the Philly deal, were involved in other big deals.

Like I said, rather convenient you forgot to mention that centerpiece of one of the biggest trades of the past 15 years.

Foppa2118 said:
Well then we disagree. Neither one of us knows for sure, so there is no sense in getting all riled up about it. I don't see why there isn't any reason to believe they wouldn't have got that arena a few years down the road,

Neither of us has a crystal ball that allows us to see into the future. However, just as we are able to add 1 plus 1 and arrive at the answer 2, we are able to add up the facts in this case and arrive at the correct answer. The Flyers tried for MANY years to get an arena built and were unable to do so. The hype surrounding the acquisition of Lindros allowed them to sellout the luxury suites before the arena was even built, enabling them to secure the financing to build that arena. There was not the hype around Forsberg to accomplish that. And it is simply not the same to bring in a player and develop him and the team. People just don't have the same sense of anticipation about seeing a player who they have already watched the past 2 or 3 years.
Foppa2118 said:
after Forsberg was there, and they had a very strong team with Ricci, and all those other guys, who could also have been traded for a quality defensmen or forward. I think they would have had a very good chance at the cup, especially in 97' when they made it to the finals, and that could very easily have brought a new arena.

UGH! Without Lindros the finals appearance in 97 is nothing but a dream! He was the reason they got there in the first place!

Foppa2118 said:
Plus the extra $15 million they gave Quebec, could have signed a couple free agents in the offseason.

They couldn't be the free spending big market team they have become without the arena and they wouldn't have had the arena without the Lindros trade. So they wouldn't have had that $15 million in the budget for UFA's.

Foppa2118 said:
I'm aware Montreal was desperate to deal Roy, but I don't think that means the deal would have gone down without Thibault, and I'm not going to waste time explaining why again just because you dind't read the whole thread. It's pure speculation on both our parts, so there is no reason arguing about opinions.

Of course it would have gone down without Thibault. Nothing speculative about it. Roy was going to Colorado to play for his former agent. He was NEVER going to play for the Habs again. These are all commonly accepted facts. I'm not sure why you'd want to debate them.

Foppa2118 said:
I agree, and in a sense you are proving my point, because I don't think they could have said that with Fiset.

Of course they could. Like I said, it didn't matter if it was true or not. What mattered was could they sell it to their fans. No, Fiset didn't turn out to be the next Patrick Roy. Neither did Thibault. But it got them through the days and weeks after the Roy trade, didn't it? And like I said, they'd have needed to get more from Colorado with Fiset than they did with Thibault.

Foppa2118 said:
This is true, but I still don't think Rucinsky and Fiset as the major parts of that deal, would have got Roy.

That's not what I said. I said Colorado would need to add more to rest of the package. Obviously Rucinsky and Fiset wouldn't get the deal done. Maybe Rucinsky, Fiset and Deadmarsh. Maybe Rucinsky, Fiset, Kovalenko and a first. Maybe Rucinsky, Fiset and Ricci. Who knows? But one thing is for sure - Roy was going to Colorado one way or another.

Foppa2118 said:
That's just the way I look at it, and there's no way to prove either side anyway.

Like I said, it's as easy as adding 1 and 1.
 
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