THE TOP 10 BLACK NHL PLAYERS OF ALL-TIME

[Iapyi]

... easy easy there Iapyi... I'll take your word for it no problem.... Its just not something (color) that I think or care about beyond hoping that eventually we'll see a lot more African Americans gaining access to the sport at young ages in traditional & non-traditional markets... picking up hockey sticks, falling in love with the game & rather than pursuing Basketball or Football exclusively.... amateur hockey making in-roads, that its much more affordable (for everyone), the naturally talented black & white athletes from all socio-economic stratospheres opting for hockey.

it's all good. I didn't mean to come across as one who is riled about it, I was just saying that to me it goes past a grandparent as I now know for a fact that one of his parents was black or half black [unless my friend is misremembering in which case I'll really have egg on my face....lol.....]

as for the whole issue of colour I am the poster child for not giving one iota of care towards one's colour. Matter of fact I think the fact it even gets brought up is a step backwards in just accepting we are all human.

 

[Neutrinos]

So, Dirk Graham's black? Who knew!

 

[blood gin]

So, Dirk Graham's black? Who knew!

To me in every picture he looks like he has black mixture. Thought this was common knowledge really. Not like he ever tried to hide it or deny it like J Edgar Hoover

I remember one interview he was joking around saying that he was one of the last old Gretzky Jofa wearers because his african hair gave him enough protection as is. He said it himself

 

[Pominville Knows]

To me in every picture he looks like he has black mixture. Thought this was common knowledge really. Not like he ever tried to hide it or deny it like J Edgar Hoover

I remember one interview he was joking around saying that he was one of the last old Gretzky Jofa wearers because his african hair gave him enough protection as is. He said it himself

All true. He has some rather obvious bone structure going on.

it's all good. I didn't mean to come across as one who is riled about it, I was just saying that to me it goes past a grandparent as I now know for a fact that one of his parents was black or half black [unless my friend is misremembering in which case I'll really have egg on my face....lol.....]

as for the whole issue of colour I am the poster child for not giving one iota of care towards one's colour. Matter of fact I think the fact it even gets brought up is a step backwards in just accepting we are all human.

So... One of his parents was in fact about half black then.
25% tops is what made him a less than perfect poster boy for the NHL's diversity program around when he won his Selke, i guess Fuhr was there but it can't be an advantage with goalies whose faces cant be seen during play.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Oh I knew it was, I was just talking in general about Fuhr that numbers were never his big thing. Not that he was better than Hasek in 1994 or anything. He wasn't, we all know this for sure.

I don't see how you can say that there is no argument for Fuhr over Iginla though. I think there is at least a reasonable discussion. We are talking about a Vezina winning and dynasty goalie here. We should do a poll about it.

So Osgood > Thornton because Cups?

or Claude is the best Lemieux because 4 > 2?

and yes, there is that big of a gap in ability and accomplishments between Fuhr and Iginla

 

[sr edler]

I would probably rank Iginla over Fuhr too, but we'll have to remember that Iginla had his first spike year in a relatively weak transition period for offense, in between the DPE and the second lockout when offensive flair was suppressed and Markus Näslund was one of the big hitters in the league when it came to producing points.

When Iginla won his Art Ross (in 01–02) it was against said Näslund (in his second best output year), Bertuzzi (who had better PPG than Iginla) and Mats Sundin who scored 80 points in 82 games. This was the Jagr-in-Washington years (he missed 13 games that year too), Forsberg missed the whole season, Sakic came back to earth, Selänne was doing something strange in San Jose (54 points), and Bure was effectively done.

Then Iginla had a couple of so-so mediocre seasons (three of them) where he was well below PPG, and when he came back swinging again in 06–07 and 07–08 with a pair of 90+ points seasons he was handily outscored by the new guard (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin).

 

[MXD]

So Osgood > Thornton because Cups?

or Claude is the best Lemieux because 4 > 2?

and yes, there is that big of a gap in ability and accomplishments between Fuhr and Iginla

I don't know what's worse :
Suggesting that Osgood is Superior to Thornton, because Cups;
or
Suggesting there's some kind of huge gap between Grant Fuhr and Jarome Iginla

There's a gap. I wouldn't exactly call it "huge", though. And nothing to do with Thornton vs. Osgood nonsense.

 

[The Roy Of Ottawa]

7 BLACK HOCKEY PLAYERS WHO WON THE STANLEY CUP

01. 1984: Grant Fuhr (Edmonton Oilers)
02. 1985: Grant Fuhr (Edmonton Oilers)
03. 1987: Grant Fuhr (Edmonton Oilers)
04. 1988: Grant Fuhr (Edmonton Oilers)
05. 1990: Grant Fuhr (Edmonton Oilers)
06. 1990: Eldon Reddick (Edmonton Oilers)
07. 2010: Dustin Byfuglien (Chicago Blackhawks)
08. 2013: Ray Emery (Chicago Blackhawks)
09. 2013: Jamal Mayers (Chicago Blackhawks)
10. 2013: Johnny Oduya (Chicago Blackhawks)
11. 2015: Johnny Oduya (Chicago Blackhawks)
12. 2016: Trevor Daley (Pittsburgh Penguins)
13. 2017: Trevor Daley (Pittsburgh Penguins)

 

[Neutrinos]

I would probably rank Iginla over Fuhr too, but we'll have to remember that Iginla had his first spike year in a relatively weak transition period for offense, in between the DPE and the second lockout when offensive flair was suppressed and Markus Näslund was one of the big hitters in the league when it came to producing points.

When Iginla won his Art Ross (in 01–02) it was against said Näslund (in his second best output year), Bertuzzi (who had better PPG than Iginla) and Mats Sundin who scored 80 points in 82 games. This was the Jagr-in-Washington years (he missed 13 games that year too), Forsberg missed the whole season, Sakic came back to earth, Selänne was doing something strange in San Jose (54 points), and Bure was effectively done.

Then Iginla had a couple of so-so mediocre seasons (three of them) where he was well below PPG, and when he came back swinging again in 06–07 and 07–08 with a pair of 90+ points seasons he was handily outscored by the new guard (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin).

The thing to remember about Iginla though, is that he had very little help in Calgary

His Art Ross season he finished 21 points ahead of the runner-up, Craig Conroy

In '04, he finished with 73 points, while the runner-up Conroy finished with just 47!

I'm not going to go through each of his seasons with Calgary, but you get the idea

 

[Big Phil]

What does that even mean, "numbers were never his big thing"?

And what does it matter if he was the goalie during a dynasty? He never lead the playoffs in SV%, so it seems to me any number of goalies during that era could've backstopped the Oilers to multiple Stanley Cups

We are talking a Vezina winning goalie with just a single Vezina and a single 1st Team All-Star selection - both in '88

Iginla is a 3x 1st Team All-Star, with an Art Ross, a Pearson and 2 Richard trophies

If you really think it's worth discussion, then say something of substance other than "Fuhr won Cups with arguably the best team ever, oh, and he has a Vezina"

That's not nearly enough to trump Iginla's accomplishments. Not even close!


I don't care what the results of the poll say, it's clear just based on this thread that Fuhr's career is being romanticized because he was A) the first black superstar and B) he won Cups

Neither of those things are relevant

But he was a bit of a late bloomer. Sort of. He starts to really break out at 24 years old. Fuhr sort of hit the ground running. You could say Fuhr was the best goalie in the latter part of the 1980s. There is a reason he was on the Canada Cups. It was definitely for a sustained period of time that Fuhr was the best goalie in the world. Longer than any time (maybe a season?) that Iginla was the best in the world.

Then you have that lull in Fuhr's career but it is revived with some pretty good seasons in St. Louis in the 1990s.

Iginla has about a decade of elite play. Some reasons were better than others, but overall I'd give him a decade.

I think for whatever reason Fuhr has not aged well in the minds of people and I think a lot of it has to do with looking at GAA and Sv%. Neither of those were something Fuhr concentrated on and none were the basis of what made him a great goalie. It was clutch goaltending, it was backstopping teams that would play a very wide open style. This isn't something you did with Chris Osgood, but you did it with Fuhr.

I say the two are fairly close.

 

[blood gin]

I don't know what's worse :
Suggesting that Osgood is Superior to Thornton, because Cups;
or
Suggesting there's some kind of huge gap between Grant Fuhr and Jarome Iginla

There's a gap. I wouldn't exactly call it "huge", though. And nothing to do with Thornton vs. Osgood nonsense.

Can't compare Fuhr to Iginla anyway. Apples to oranges. 80's era goaltender(who later revived his career and had success in the DPE) to dead puck era forward. The sport changed so much. Both are great HOF players who were responsible for vastly different things.

 

[Neutrinos]

But he was a bit of a late bloomer. Sort of. He starts to really break out at 24 years old. Fuhr sort of hit the ground running. You could say Fuhr was the best goalie in the latter part of the 1980s. There is a reason he was on the Canada Cups. It was definitely for a sustained period of time that Fuhr was the best goalie in the world. Longer than any time (maybe a season?) that Iginla was the best in the world.

Then you have that lull in Fuhr's career but it is revived with some pretty good seasons in St. Louis in the 1990s.

Iginla has about a decade of elite play. Some reasons were better than others, but overall I'd give him a decade.

I think for whatever reason Fuhr has not aged well in the minds of people and I think a lot of it has to do with looking at GAA and Sv%. Neither of those were something Fuhr concentrated on and none were the basis of what made him a great goalie. It was clutch goaltending, it was backstopping teams that would play a very wide open style. This isn't something you did with Chris Osgood, but you did it with Fuhr.

I say the two are fairly close.

I disagree.

Patrick Roy won the Smythe in '86
The Jennings in '87, '88, '89
1st Team All-Star in '89, '90
2nd Team All-Star in '88
SV% leader in '88, '89, '90


Fuhr was thought of as the best because he was an athletic goaltender who made flashy saves on a team that won

I think the only time Fuhr finished higher than 10th in SV% was in '86 when he finished 6th

You can slice it anyway you like, but he wasn't as good as his reputation would have us believe


People defend Brodeur's low SV% by saying it was affected by facing a low number of shots

If that's true, then why was Fuhr never able to be among the leaders in SV% despite playing for a porous defense?

 

[Doctor No]

People defend Brodeur's low SV% by saying it was affected by facing a low number of shots

If that's true, then why was Fuhr never able to be among the leaders in SV% despite playing for a porous defense?

You're conflating two different things - shot quality and shot quantity.

 

[Doctor No]

Can't compare Fuhr to Iginla anyway.

You may not be able to compare Fuhr to Iginla, but if that's your premise, then you also can't participate in the "TOP 10 BLACK NHL PLAYERS OF ALL-TIME" rankings then.

Because the former is required to do the latter.

 

[decma]

But he was a bit of a late bloomer. Sort of. He starts to really break out at 24 years old. Fuhr sort of hit the ground running. You could say Fuhr was the best goalie in the latter part of the 1980s. There is a reason he was on the Canada Cups. It was definitely for a sustained period of time that Fuhr was the best goalie in the world. Longer than any time (maybe a season?) that Iginla was the best in the world.

When was the sustained period that Fuhr was the best goalie in the world?

As we know, he was never statistically the best goalie, or even close (one top 10 GAA season (5th) and three top 10 save percentage seasons (6th, 9th, and 10th).

Yes, I know the counterargument is that that was due to Edmonton's open style. But even comparing him to other Edmonton goalies, his numbers are not good.

He and Moog shared the minutes in Edmonton for six seasons (53% Fuhr/47% Moog).
During those six seasons, Moog had the slightly better save percentage (.886 to .885) and the better GAA (3.61 to 3.76).

Fuhr and Ranford split duties for the following four seasons (with Fuhr again getting 53% of the minutes).
Ranford had the better save percentage (.888 to .879) and GAA (3.24 to 3.59).

So he was no better (and arguably worse) than the other main goalies playing behind that same wide open team.

For those who prefer votes to stats, Fuhr had his Vezina season of 87-88. He was a not particularly close 3rd two other seasons (with the fourth place finishers being Pokey Reddick and Clint Malarchuk).

I think the only time when he was considered the best goalie in the NHL was for that one season (87-88). By the following season I think it was Roy.

 

[Doctor No]

He and Moog shared the minutes in Edmonton for six seasons (53% Fuhr/47% Moog).
During those six seasons, Moog had the slightly better save percentage (.886 to .885) and the better GAA (3.61 to 3.76).

Fuhr and Ranford split duties for the following four seasons (with Fuhr again getting 53% of the minutes).
Ranford had the better save percentage (.888 to .879) and GAA (3.24 to 3.59).

So he was no better (and arguably worse) than the other main goalies playing behind that same wide open team.

For what it's worth, Fuhr was consistently playing a tougher slate of opponent than Moog or Ranford:

EDMONTON OILERS GOALTENDING HISTORY: YEAR-BY-YEAR

The notable exception being 1985-86 (where Fuhr also out-save percentaged Moog 89.0% to 88.9%).

 

[Neutrinos]

When was the sustained period that Fuhr was the best goalie in the world?

As we know, he was never statistically the best goalie, or even close (one top 10 GAA season (5th) and three top 10 save percentage seasons (6th, 9th, and 10th).

Yes, I know the counterargument is that that was due to Edmonton's open style. But even comparing him to other Edmonton goalies, his numbers are not good.

He and Moog shared the minutes in Edmonton for six seasons (53% Fuhr/47% Moog).
During those six seasons, Moog had the slightly better save percentage (.886 to .885) and the better GAA (3.61 to 3.76).

Fuhr and Ranford split duties for the following four seasons (with Fuhr again getting 53% of the minutes).
Ranford had the better save percentage (.888 to .879) and GAA (3.24 to 3.59).

So he was no better (and arguably worse) than the other main goalies playing behind that same wide open team.

For those who prefer votes to stats, Fuhr had his Vezina season of 87-88. He was a not particularly close 3rd two other seasons (with the fourth place finishers being Pokey Reddick and Clint Malarchuk).

I think the only time when he was considered the best goalie in the NHL was for that one season (87-88). By the following season I think it was Roy.

I would think it's likely Fuhr played against the top tier teams, while Moog/Ranford were allowed to feast on the bottom tier

And it could be argued that Fuhr wasn't even the best goalie in '88, but voters were in awe of what was then (I believe) a record for games played in a season by a goaltender which lead to Fuhr leading the league in wins

 

[Big Phil]

I disagree.

Patrick Roy won the Smythe in '86
The Jennings in '87, '88, '89
1st Team All-Star in '89, '90
2nd Team All-Star in '88
SV% leader in '88, '89, '90

Roy truly arrived for good in 1989. I would say Fuhr from 1983-'88 was the best in the game. In 1987 Fuhr was a lock cinch to be the starter for Team Canada and there is a reason for that. In 1988 he wins the Vezina.

Fuhr was thought of as the best because he was an athletic goaltender who made flashy saves on a team that won

I think the only time Fuhr finished higher than 10th in SV% was in '86 when he finished 6th

You can slice it anyway you like, but he wasn't as good as his reputation would have us believe


People defend Brodeur's low SV% by saying it was affected by facing a low number of shots

If that's true, then why was Fuhr never able to be among the leaders in SV% despite playing for a porous defense?

A high quality of shots is what did it. Fuhr got a lot of those. Brodeur had less shots and less quality shots against him. Now, none of this matters, because Brodeur is an all-time great and better than Fuhr and we saw what he could do with a great defense and a mediocre one. But Fuhr was never about numbers.

 

[Big Phil]

When was the sustained period that Fuhr was the best goalie in the world?

As I said, if you take a 5 year period like 1983-'88 I don't think there was a better goalie in the NHL during that time.

 

[Sanf]

I personally have feeling that Wayne Simmonds has surpassed atleast Carter and Grier. Carter reminds me bit of Jussi Jokinen. Maybe not stylistically, but player who could stunt even in first line, but not produce by his own. Overall still very easily replacaple.

I´m even tempted to rank Grier over Carter. Maybe not that much offensice upside, but was consistant through his career and for longer period than Carter. And more versatile than Carter...

 

[Neutrinos]

Roy truly arrived for good in 1989. I would say Fuhr from 1983-'88 was the best in the game. In 1987 Fuhr was a lock cinch to be the starter for Team Canada and there is a reason for that. In 1988 he wins the Vezina.

A high quality of shots is what did it. Fuhr got a lot of those. Brodeur had less shots and less quality shots against him. Now, none of this matters, because Brodeur is an all-time great and better than Fuhr and we saw what he could do with a great defense and a mediocre one. But Fuhr was never about numbers.

As I said, if you take a 5 year period like 1983-'88 I don't think there was a better goalie in the NHL during that time.

What does that even mean "Fuhr was never about the numbers?" He just let goals in for fun?

From '83 - '88, you had guys like Barasso, Vanbiesbrouk, Peeters, Lindbergh, Liut, Froese, Hextall all having better seasons than Fuhr (feel free to look at the stats more closely, I just did a quick scan, so my argument may not hold up to scrutiny)

He won the Vezina in '88 because he played a lot of games and lead the league in wins, not because he was the best goalie in the league

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

So

Simmonds-?-Iginla
Kane-?-Okposo
McKegney-G. Smith-Carter
Graham-Craigwell-Ward
Neufeld Grier

Oduya-Subban
Daley-Byfuglien
Nurse-Jones
Salvador

Fuhr
Reddick
Emery

No other black centers of note, eh? That's the only thing keeping that team back from being a competitive one.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

What does that even mean "Fuhr was never about the numbers?" He just let goals in for fun?

From '83 - '88, you had guys like Barasso, Vanbiesbrouk, Peeters, Lindbergh, Liut, Froese, Hextall all having better seasons than Fuhr (feel free to look at the stats more closely, I just did a quick scan, so my argument may not hold up to scrutiny)

He won the Vezina in '88 because he played a lot of games and lead the league in wins, not because he was the best goalie in the league

From 83-88 Nobody would have traded Fuhr straight up for ANY of these goalies, as good as they were.

 

[VanIslander]

THE TOP 10 BLACK NHL PLAYERS OF ALL-TIME

01. Grant Fuhr
02. Jarome Iginla
03. P.K. Subban
04. Dustin Byfuglien
05. Dirk Graham
06. Tony McKegney
07. Ray Neufeld
08. Anson Carter
09. Mike Grier
10. Johnny Oduya
11. Georges Laraque
12. Eldon "Pokey" Reddick
13. Ray Emery
14. Fred Brathwaite
15. Kevin Weekes

THE TOP 12 BLACK NHL PLAYERS OF ALL-TIME UPDATED

01. Grant Fuhr
02. Jarome Iginla
03. P.K. Subban
04. Dustin Byfuglien
05. Dirk Graham
06. Tony McKegney
07. Anson Carter
08. Mike Grier
09. Wayne Simmonds
10. Evander Kane
11. Joel Ward
12. Ray Neufeld

Thank you for finally including Wayne Simmonds in the top 10. Kuddos for that.
And as a Sharks fan I love the Joel Ward honorable mention (outside your top 10, but heck, he's already earned $30+ million so **** him!).

But Johnny Oduya drops off the radar? Man, you'd think the honorable mention list would get longer instead of buzzcut at 12. He averaged 22:45 and 24:45 minutes per game on Stanley Cup championship squads, easily top-4 for the best team both postseasons. (Yeah, he's an old man skating the last couple of years, but seriously!)

 

[The Roy Of Ottawa]

Oduya doesn't score much. Okay he's # 12 now. No more Ray Neufeld.