The Ten Worst Players in the HHOF

[blogofmike]

Thank you for the opportunity to expand on my points. As usual your numbers fail when vetted. Caught you initially on 1940s goalies SV% and a few times since.

A big body in front of the net draws penalties. That slipped by it seems. Also creates space. Andreychuk was the big body. Early season Leafs did not have the big body presence.

Simple before and after issue, not a small sample space question where a spike occurs due to weak PK by the opposition. Leafs scored 98 PP goals that year. 61 in 53 games before Andreychuk. 37 in 31 games with Andreychuk. Or a bump from 1.15 PPG/G to 1.19, more than 2.5%.

You raise the playoffs. Leafs scored 17PPG in 21 games. Check the defencemen of the opposition and their ability to play a "Big Body" in front of the net.

Detroit had Lidstrom, Chaisson and Konstantinov. St. Louis, the weakest, had Garth Butcher. LA had Blake, Sydor, Huddy, McSorley. Explains why LA was the most successful. Andreychuk did not score as much but definitely created space for Gilmour and the other Leafs to score.

You got me. I made a mistake, the Leafs got 1.2 fewer PPO as a team once Andreychuk got there, big body and all. I'm sure you'll lord that over me in the future, whilst I gracefully ignore the time you claimed Guy Lafleur had 106 ES points in 1978. This honest mistake did catch a fun post-hoc rationalization from you though. (Some team statistic went up? ALL CREDIT TO ANDREYCHUK!)

1993 Leafs Powerplay

Begin	End	GP	PPG	PPO	PPO/GP	PPG/GP	PP%
	23-Nov	20	19	125	6.25	0.95	15.20%
24-Nov	30-Dec	16	17	93	5.81	1.06	18.28%
31-Dec	02-Feb	16	25	94	5.88	1.56	26.60%
03-Feb	11-Mar	16	19	82	5.13	1.19	23.17%
12-Mar	End	16	18	72	4.50	1.13	25.00%
Playoffs		21	17	104	4.95	0.81	16.35%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoffs are a different beast, but the LA Kings had an awful PK (78.4%) that season. They had an awful PK up until that point in the playoffs (74.4%). With Mighty Andreychuk, the Leafs could have chased a PPG record in a 7 game series against LA. Instead, that was the year the Leafs PP unit set a new record for most SH goals against (since broken). And while his newly acquired sniper scored zero total goals (ES,PP,SH), Doug Gilmour scored 13 points in 7 games and was a +6 to Andy's +1. So he found space when others were playing too.

 

[Nick Hansen]

The problem is that the HHOF inducts Jack Nicholson, Tom Hanks and Robert De Niro while also inducting Jeff Bridges and John Travolta.

What.

 

[Killion]

Why can't a player voice his opinion on the standards of the HHOF? He's a member, doesn't he have that right?.

Sure. Have a private word with the Chair of the Induction Committee, tell him you dont think they did a very good job of it inducting whomever. But you dont go yapping off to a reporter about it, some talk radio sports host or whatever.... but then, thats Lets Put Both of My Feet in my Mouf Phil Esposito. Cant resist a mic, a camera, loves the sound of his own voice... falls in love with mirror's as well. Cant take his eyes off himself.... like I said Big Guy, Cap'n Canada there, Espo, no Speedbump between his brain & his mouth.

 

[Big Phil]

Never was a big fan of Dick Duff getting in. But, that's an old argument that's been done to death I think.

The Puck Stops Here: Why Dick Duff Is A Poor Hall of Fame Choice

Never read that article, but yeah, it does paint a picture. Duff was friends with many on the committee. This is something many of us knew prior to this, but it does not surprise me that he fails miserably with the Bill James style questions of a legit HHOFer.

First reactions are never a lie. When I first read the headline in 2006 that "Roy, Duff get into Hall" I expected Roy immediately. Then I had to think for a second who the heck Duff was. Remember, I am a pretty darn good hockey historian but to be honest I just as well dismissed Dick Duff as being that "Duff" they were talking about. I figured it was someone from the 1930s in the builders category or something as it never said in the headline it was a player. Never did I think they meant Dick Duff. I mean he was never even on the radar. Before a player gets inducted there is always a campaign to get behind him on here. Many of us have said Fleury should be in, many thought Neely or Vachon and many have said Middleton or Barrasso. Heck, the odd person even said Andreychuk. But never, ever, ever, did I hear even the current supporters of Duff say a thing about him. Not once was he ever even mentioned as a guy who could get in that hadn't been yet.

That's why it is so shocking. It just came out of nowhere. The person in the article compares him to Kris Draper, and maybe that's fair. I might give him a bit more credit and say Brenden Morrow. Either way, can you imagine them being inducted?

 

[Big Phil]

Sure. Have a private word with the Chair of the Induction Committee, tell him you dont think they did a very good job of it inducting whomever. But you dont go yapping off to a reporter about it, some talk radio sports host or whatever.... but then, thats Lets Put Both of My Feet in my Mouf Phil Esposito. Cant resist a mic, a camera, loves the sound of his own voice... falls in love with mirror's as well. Cant take his eyes off himself.... like I said Big Guy, Cap'n Canada there, Espo, no Speedbump between his brain & his mouth.

Well maybe not...........but is he wrong? Out of line perhaps, but wrong? I agree with him. No one likes a watered down HHOF and that's where we are heading if not there already. If they raise the standards and don't be so silly from here on in they can gain some more credibility. It is because of this that I have to use the words "legit HHOFer" on these boards.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You got me. I made a mistake, the Leafs got 1.2 fewer PPO as a team once Andreychuk got there, big body and all. I'm sure you'll lord that over me in the future, whilst I gracefully ignore the time you claimed Guy Lafleur had 106 ES points in 1978. This honest mistake did catch a fun post-hoc rationalization from you though. (Some team statistic went up? ALL CREDIT TO ANDREYCHUK!)

1993 Leafs Powerplay

Begin	End	GP	PPG	PPO	PPO/GP	PPG/GP	PP%
	23-Nov	20	19	125	6.25	0.95	15.20%
24-Nov	30-Dec	16	17	93	5.81	1.06	18.28%
31-Dec	02-Feb	16	25	94	5.88	1.56	26.60%
03-Feb	11-Mar	16	19	82	5.13	1.19	23.17%
12-Mar	End	16	18	72	4.50	1.13	25.00%
Playoffs		21	17	104	4.95	0.81	16.35%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoffs are a different beast, but the LA Kings had an awful PK (78.4%) that season. They had an awful PK up until that point in the playoffs (74.4%). With Mighty Andreychuk, the Leafs could have chased a PPG record in a 7 game series against LA. Instead, that was the year the Leafs PP unit set a new record for most SH goals against (since broken). And while his newly acquired sniper scored zero total goals (ES,PP,SH), Doug Gilmour scored 13 points in 7 games and was a +6 to Andy's +1. So he found space when others were playing too.

Issue could have been avoided if you had produced the above initially.

Still you misinterpret and omit key points.

Leafs had a new head coach - Pat Burns to start the season so there was a familiarization and implementation phase to special teams. Burns liked a big body in front of the net on the PP.

Playoff PP against the Kings. You omit the impact of the return of Wayne Gretzky on the Kings special teams. Players reverted back to accustomed roles and Kings were able to execute their high risk, high reward PK.

Also do not conflate league PK stats with the ability to kill penalties against a specific opponent over a stretch of seven consecutive games. Not one and the same.

Gilmour scoring 13 points but generating a +6, points to a defensive liability.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Never read that article, but yeah, it does paint a picture. Duff was friends with many on the committee. This is something many of us knew prior to this, but it does not surprise me that he fails miserably with the Bill James style questions of a legit HHOFer.

First reactions are never a lie. When I first read the headline in 2006 that "Roy, Duff get into Hall" I expected Roy immediately. Then I had to think for a second who the heck Duff was. Remember, I am a pretty darn good hockey historian but to be honest I just as well dismissed Dick Duff as being that "Duff" they were talking about. I figured it was someone from the 1930s in the builders category or something as it never said in the headline it was a player. Never did I think they meant Dick Duff. I mean he was never even on the radar. Before a player gets inducted there is always a campaign to get behind him on here. Many of us have said Fleury should be in, many thought Neely or Vachon and many have said Middleton or Barrasso. Heck, the odd person even said Andreychuk. But never, ever, ever, did I hear even the current supporters of Duff say a thing about him. Not once was he ever even mentioned as a guy who could get in that hadn't been yet.

That's why it is so shocking. It just came out of nowhere. The person in the article compares him to Kris Draper, and maybe that's fair. I might give him a bit more credit and say Brenden Morrow. Either way, can you imagine them being inducted?

Dick Duff was a much better player than the combined talents of Draper and Morrow.

If you thought that Dick Duff was a 1930s builder? Not much of a hockey historian even self-proclaimed.

BTW the subliminal campaign on the Simpson's worked very well.

 

[Killion]

First reactions are never a lie. When I first read the headline in 2006 that "Roy, Duff get into Hall" I expected Roy immediately. Then I had to think for a second who the heck Duff was. Remember, I am a pretty darn good hockey historian but to be honest I just as well dismissed Dick Duff as being that "Duff" they were talking about. I figured it was someone from the 1930s in the builders category or something as it never said in the headline it was a player. Never did I think they meant Dick Duff. I mean he was never even on the radar.....

.... Well Phil.... me thinks you were born perhaps a little too late to remember Dick Duff with the Leafs & his contributions to those teams successes', and knowing your a Leafs fan, it's really a shame that you didnt get to watch & appreciate him as a player because if you had.... he most certainly would have been on your radar just as he was with most fans & not just in Toronto, but so too in Montreal. You would, I guarantee you, have a far different opinion about the guy. Much much more positive, respectful.

A St. Mikes product, he was one of the finest they ever produced, pound for pound as tough & as hard nosed as they came, a real "warrior" & "money player" who Im sure you would have absolutely loved just as just about every other kid growing up in Toronto & Leaf fans of the era did.... and that seeing him packaged up & traded away to NY as he was for essentially Andy Bathgate was rather traumatic, the loss of a Native Son & a guy born to wear the blue & white. A mainstay, everything you wanted in a player. Loyal, fierce competitor, leader, smart....

Montreal, Blake & Pollock realizing the stupidity of the Leafs & value of Duff then later that year (64) absolutely robbed the Rangers in acquiring Dick Duff, sending Hicke & Morissette to the Big Apple, Duff going on to being a key piece to their teams through the rest of the 60's, very useful player indeed. Frankly, it seemed "odd" seeing him in the bleu-blanc-rouge of the Canadiens, however like Frank Mahovlich later on, a seamless transition and excellent fit. Toronto's loss, Montreal's gain.... Duff was a huge ping on the radar (on & off the ice, hockey schools etc), more than earned his induction, place in the HHOF.... and perhaps in this case, one where "you really had to be there" to understand & appreciate because... you, and everyone else who doesnt think he deserves to be in is wrong. Dead wrong.

 

[Big Phil]

Dick Duff was a much better player than the combined talents of Draper and Morrow.

If you thought that Dick Duff was a 1930s builder? Not much of a hockey historian even self-proclaimed.

BTW the subliminal campaign on the Simpson's worked very well.

I didn't think Dick Duff was some forgotten guy from the 1930s, I thought the name "Duff" - which was the first thing I read in the headline - was someone who couldn't possibly be Dick Duff. The headline I read literally said "Roy, Duff to be inducted into Hall". So it wasn't as if I had a first name. How far was Dick Duff from the radar in my mind? He didn't even register. It wasn't as if I didn't remember Dick Duff, it is that when I saw the headline simply just read "Duff" I figured it might be someone from the long past they were giving credit to because I just as well assumed it couldn't possibly be Dick Duff from the 1960s.

From a guy who has lived hockey for several decades like myself, that's pretty bad! And I mean bad for Duff. You show me a headline that says "Bure inducted into the Hall" I immediately know it is Pavel and can't possibly be Valeri. But I couldn't imagine who it could be from history because the mere idea that it could be Dick Duff wasn't even entertained in my eyes. First impressions never lie.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I didn't think Dick Duff was some forgotten guy from the 1930s, I thought the name "Duff" - which was the first thing I read in the headline - was someone who couldn't possibly be Dick Duff. The headline I read literally said "Roy, Duff to be inducted into Hall". So it wasn't as if I had a first name. How far was Dick Duff from the radar in my mind? He didn't even register. It wasn't as if I didn't remember Dick Duff, it is that when I saw the headline simply just read "Duff" I figured it might be someone from the long past they were giving credit to because I just as well assumed it couldn't possibly be Dick Duff from the 1960s.

From a guy who has lived hockey for several decades like myself, that's pretty bad! And I mean bad for Duff. You show me a headline that says "Bure inducted into the Hall" I immediately know it is Pavel and can't possibly be Valeri. But I couldn't imagine who it could be from history because the mere idea that it could be Dick Duff wasn't even entertained in my eyes. First impressions never lie.

Just testifying to your own lack of knowledge. Be my guest. Continue.

 

[Big Phil]

.... Well Phil.... me thinks you were born perhaps a little too late to remember Dick Duff with the Leafs & his contributions to those teams successes', and knowing your a Leafs fan, it's really a shame that you didnt get to watch & appreciate him as a player because if you had.... he most certainly would have been on your radar just as he was with most fans & not just in Toronto, but so too in Montreal. You would, I guarantee you, have a far different opinion about the guy. Much much more positive, respectful.

A St. Mikes product, he was one of the finest they ever produced, pound for pound as tough & as hard nosed as they came, a real "warrior" & "money player" who Im sure you would have absolutely loved just as just about every other kid growing up in Toronto & Leaf fans of the era did.... and that seeing him packaged up & traded away to NY as he was for essentially Andy Bathgate was rather traumatic, the loss of a Native Son & a guy born to wear the blue & white. A mainstay, everything you wanted in a player. Loyal, fierce competitor, leader, smart....

Montreal, Blake & Pollock realizing the stupidity of the Leafs & value of Duff then later that year (64) absolutely robbed the Rangers in acquiring Dick Duff, sending Hicke & Morissette to the Big Apple, Duff going on to being a key piece to their teams through the rest of the 60's, very useful player indeed. Frankly, it seemed "odd" seeing him in the bleu-blanc-rouge of the Canadiens, however like Frank Mahovlich later on, a seamless transition and excellent fit. Toronto's loss, Montreal's gain.... Duff was a huge ping on the radar (on & off the ice, hockey schools etc), more than earned his induction, place in the HHOF.... and perhaps in this case, one where "you really had to be there" to understand & appreciate because... you, and everyone else who doesnt think he deserves to be in is wrong. Dead wrong.

Look up some threads on here pre-2006, I know you and Canadiens1958 weren't on these boards then but I am telling you the guy's name never came up once, and this is the history of hockey board. There are names that you figure would have come up from time to time. I figure if Lanny McDonald didn't get inducted that his name would be tossed around a lot. Lindros, Neely, Vachon are names that routinely got mentioned among the "Best players not in the HHOF" type of threads. Never Duff.

How else do you know that even the committee knew it was a bad choice? Colin Campbell purposely wrote a column in the Hockey News after Duff was elected trying to justify it. Have you ever heard of that before? I hadn't. A true Hall of Famer doesn't need that sort of charity, which Duff is not.

Not a single Hart vote, never an all-star at his position, once finished 17th in scoring at his peak.................yet this is the guy who is worthy. If he is so worthy, compare him to someone in the HHOF. Someone that the consensus will say he is comfortably in. I'll bet you can't, because I can't myself.

 

[Big Phil]

Just testifying to your own lack of knowledge. Be my guest. Continue.

It isn't a criticism of myself, it is meant to be a criticism of Duff. It means that even among hockey historians like myself he was never someone even close to being considered. The HHOF agreed with me for 30 years because that is how long it took him to get in. Why 2006? Why not 2005? There was room for him that year. What made him a HHOFer in 2006 all of the sudden? I'd like to answer you, but the HHOF has no one to answer to.

 

[Canadiens1958]

.... Well Phil.... me thinks you were born perhaps a little too late to remember Dick Duff with the Leafs & his contributions to those teams successes', and knowing your a Leafs fan, it's really a shame that you didnt get to watch & appreciate him as a player because if you had.... he most certainly would have been on your radar just as he was with most fans & not just in Toronto, but so too in Montreal. You would, I guarantee you, have a far different opinion about the guy. Much much more positive, respectful.

A St. Mikes product, he was one of the finest they ever produced, pound for pound as tough & as hard nosed as they came, a real "warrior" & "money player" who Im sure you would have absolutely loved just as just about every other kid growing up in Toronto & Leaf fans of the era did.... and that seeing him packaged up & traded away to NY as he was for essentially Andy Bathgate was rather traumatic, the loss of a Native Son & a guy born to wear the blue & white. A mainstay, everything you wanted in a player. Loyal, fierce competitor, leader, smart....

Montreal, Blake & Pollock realizing the stupidity of the Leafs & value of Duff then later that year (64) absolutely robbed the Rangers in acquiring Dick Duff, sending Hicke & Morissette to the Big Apple, Duff going on to being a key piece to their teams through the rest of the 60's, very useful player indeed. Frankly, it seemed "odd" seeing him in the bleu-blanc-rouge of the Canadiens, however like Frank Mahovlich later on, a seamless transition and excellent fit. Toronto's loss, Montreal's gain.... Duff was a huge ping on the radar (on & off the ice, hockey schools etc), more than earned his induction, place in the HHOF.... and perhaps in this case, one where "you really had to be there" to understand & appreciate because... you, and everyone else who doesnt think he deserves to be in is wrong. Dead wrong.

Frank Mahovlich was another St.Mike's product.

The HHOF appreciated the similarity in LW responsibilities between the Leaf and Canadiens style of hockey. Why Bert Olmstead transitoned easily, bringing great value going from Montreal to Toronto.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I didn't think Dick Duff was some forgotten guy from the 1930s, I thought the name "Duff" - which was the first thing I read in the headline - was someone who couldn't possibly be Dick Duff. The headline I read literally said "Roy, Duff to be inducted into Hall". So it wasn't as if I had a first name. How far was Dick Duff from the radar in my mind? He didn't even register. It wasn't as if I didn't remember Dick Duff, it is that when I saw the headline simply just read "Duff" I figured it might be someone from the long past they were giving credit to because I just as well assumed it couldn't possibly be Dick Duff from the 1960s.

From a guy who has lived hockey for several decades like myself, that's pretty bad! And I mean bad for Duff. You show me a headline that says "Bure inducted into the Hall" I immediately know it is Pavel and can't possibly be Valeri. But I couldn't imagine who it could be from history because the mere idea that it could be Dick Duff wasn't even entertained in my eyes. First impressions never lie.

Doing a great job of testifying against yourself. Continue.

Just like Roy does not need the first name neither does Duff.

 

[Big Phil]

Doing a great job of testifying against yourself. Continue.

Just like Roy does not need the first name neither does Duff.

I think this is completely going over your head. Roy does not need a first name attached. Duff did. It shows you just how far off the radar the guy was and I am hardly someone who doesn't know his hockey.

It was a bad induction. It had some "buddy-buddy" motivations to it. Duff is a local boy, well known in circles in Toronto and had friends on the committee. It isn't hard to see how he got in.

But you can start by answering my question as to how he was all of the sudden good enough in 2006 but not in 2005 when there was space.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I think this is completely going over your head. Roy does not need a first name attached. Duff did. It shows you just how far off the radar the guy was and I am hardly someone who doesn't know his hockey.

It was a bad induction. It had some "buddy-buddy" motivations to it. Duff is a local boy, well known in circles in Toronto and had friends on the committee. It isn't hard to see how he got in.

But you can start by answering my question as to how he was all of the sudden good enough in 2006 but not in 2005 when there was space.

Understand very well.

Basically you have to go back to the O6 era and look at how players were viewed and the proximity in talent, attributes and results between George Armstrong and Dick Duff vs other 1950s and 1960s wingers.

 

[Big Phil]

Understand very well.

Basically you have to go back to the O6 era and look at how players were viewed and the proximity in talent, attributes and results between George Armstrong and Dick Duff vs other 1950s and 1960s wingers.

Armstrong was a better player than Duff. He had a better career. I would like you to find me a player in the HHOF who is in there comfortably that you can compare with Duff............because I can't and I am hardly in the minority on this very well hockey-educated board.

 

[Killion]

Look up some threads on here pre-2006, I know you and Canadiens1958 weren't on these boards then but I am telling you the guy's name never came up once, and this is the history of hockey board.

Beyond Gee Wally & maybe one or two others, the age demographic of hf Boards back then was predominantly young (as it it is today even still) with few members born prior to the 60's & who have/had memories of players like Duff, caught their best years, watched their entire careers & so on. Even today there are few Members frequenting the HOH Board who are now in their late 50's, 60's & 70's, in a broader sense our generations having not grown up with the internet and slow to embrace new technologies. Computer used sure enough but only as a business tool, not as a source of entertainment, so you just didnt have many contributing to these discussions back then from these earlier generations just as there are only a few of us here today.

Such a dynamic can & often does cause friction between the generations, between the young & the old, "ageism", that the best players all time were the players you grew up with, that yesterdays players were far superior to todays in some respects, todays far superior to yesterdays in other ways. We older guys try to be as objective as possible & are being quite sincere & genuine when we tell you that a guy like Duff actually does belong, earned his stripes, was an absolute sparkplug & firebrand of a player, not dissimilar in fact to a cross between a Dave Keon & Doug Gilmour but a bit more rambunctious. Pugnacious at times. Very interesting & entertaining guy to watch. Only 5'9", 166lbs at the start of a season but the way he played, he might have tipped the scales at 150 by the end of them, and it was the Playoffs where he really came alive.

He was one of (a very prominent one, key, important member of those clubs & extremely popular) the Hero's from my childhood in Toronto during his years with the Leafs, so for you, for anyone to suggest that he shouldnt be in the HHOF after what I saw with my own eyes.... given all that Ive seen since... given the levels of hockey that I myself ascended.... that I dont know talent when I see it?.... Do you not understand how insulting that is to me & to others of my generation & older who like me have absolutely no problem whatsoever, in full support of Duffs induction?.... Do you wonder why older posters get upset with you & others all younger than themselves when their told their wrong about someone who they watched play their entire careers before you were even born? Guys who played, coached, scouted, were officials etc at elite & pro levels contemporaneously to guys like Duff & in a couple of cases would have seen him up close & personal & your telling them "your wrong, he's unworthy"?

... food for thought....

 

[Canadiens1958]

Armstrong was a better player than Duff. He had a better career. I would like you to find me a player in the HHOF who is in there comfortably that you can compare with Duff............because I can't and I am hardly in the minority on this very well hockey-educated board.

Very debatable. Armstrong marginally better offensively, known for his ability to cover Bobby Hull.

Dick Duff came up big offensively in the miracle 1959 run to make the playoffs while playing solid defence against the leading RWs of his time - Bathgate, Howe, Geoffrion.

With the Canadiens he was the 1st or 2nd LW based non specific needs, able to play with Beliveau or Henri Richard. Defensively was able and willing to comeback and support Ted Harris when he entered the league.

Excellent in the playoffs. Gillies nor Barber have his playoff pedigree or longevity.

 

[Killion]

Armstrong was a better player than Duff. He had a better career. I would like you to find me a player in the HHOF who is in there comfortably that you can compare with Duff............because I can't and I am hardly in the minority on this very well hockey-educated board.

How do you figure that? Duff got to play with & fully experience the glory of the 2 leading Dynasty's during the waning years of the Golden Era & during the formative years of the NHL's first major Expansion. He got to play for & with Legends like Punch Imlach & Toe Blake, Red Kelly & Jean Beliveau, having his name etched on the Stanley Cup 6X's in 2 different cities. The Leafs & the Habs had dressing rooms full of Leaders, though Montreal with the greatest Captain the games ever known in Jean Beliveau. In Toronto, Duff was an Assistant Captain, and there you had any number of players who could have easily worn the C or the A yet they chose Dick Duff. Why would that be do you think Phil?.....

Much has been written about George Armstrong, why he was selected Captain, laid back guy, Captain because he was so laid back. Effective in taking off the edge with a joke. A sort of "social convenor". Spent much of his time calming down the younger players after one of Imlachs tirades. Poor George there a sort of glorified Babysitter at times. Duff on the other hand, as an Assistant, he was your on ice Lawyer.... had the respect of everyone in the room.... So "better career"? I dont think so. About Even Steven all things considered. If I had to choose myself which career; all of it with the Leafs or half with Toronto & half of it in Montreal, I'd go with the latter. You kiddin? Best of both worlds at the moment in time. As for talent, effectiveness, that too a wash. On par with & interchangeable in some respects though they played different positions obviously. Frankly I preferred Duff to Armstrong in terms of grit, compete & fight. Guy had a serious hockey IQ.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Scotty Bowman.

Legends of Hockey - Spotlight - One on One with Scotty Bowman

With nothing left to prove, Scotty Bowman retired from active NHL management after the Stanley Cup celebration in 2002 with an unprecedented hockey resume. Bowman is the winningest coach in NHL history with 1,244 (as well as 583 losses and 314 ties). His winning percentage is an astonishing .654. In the playoffs, Bowman was simply an alchemist, turning 223 wins and just 130 losses into nine Stanley Cup wins, more than any other coach in NHL history. Scotty Bowman was selected as an Honoured Member of the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1991, but leaves a legacy that will remain as long as the game of hockey is played.

 

[Big Phil]

Beyond Gee Wally & maybe one or two others, the age demographic of hf Boards back then was predominantly young (as it it is today even still) with few members born prior to the 60's & who have/had memories of players like Duff, caught their best years, watched their entire careers & so on. Even today there are few Members frequenting the HOH Board who are now in their late 50's, 60's & 70's, in a broader sense our generations having not grown up with the internet and slow to embrace new technologies. Computer used sure enough but only as a business tool, not as a source of entertainment, so you just didnt have many contributing to these discussions back then from these earlier generations just as there are only a few of us here today.

Such a dynamic can & often does cause friction between the generations, between the young & the old, "ageism", that the best players all time were the players you grew up with, that yesterdays players were far superior to todays in some respects, todays far superior to yesterdays in other ways. We older guys try to be as objective as possible & are being quite sincere & genuine when we tell you that a guy like Duff actually does belong, earned his stripes, was an absolute sparkplug & firebrand of a player, not dissimilar in fact to a cross between a Dave Keon & Doug Gilmour but a bit more rambunctious. Pugnacious at times. Very interesting & entertaining guy to watch. Only 5'9", 166lbs at the start of a season but the way he played, he might have tipped the scales at 150 by the end of them, and it was the Playoffs where he really came alive.

He was one of (a very prominent one, key, important member of those clubs & extremely popular) the Hero's from my childhood in Toronto during his years with the Leafs, so for you, for anyone to suggest that he shouldnt be in the HHOF after what I saw with my own eyes.... given all that Ive seen since... given the levels of hockey that I myself ascended.... that I dont know talent when I see it?.... Do you not understand how insulting that is to me & to others of my generation & older who like me have absolutely no problem whatsoever, in full support of Duffs induction?.... Do you wonder why older posters get upset with you & others all younger than themselves when their told their wrong about someone who they watched play their entire careers before you were even born? Guys who played, coached, scouted, were officials etc at elite & pro levels contemporaneously to guys like Duff & in a couple of cases would have seen him up close & personal & your telling them "your wrong, he's unworthy"?

... food for thought....

Killion, you should know by now I am not young. That being said, most people on here saw Andreychuk's career and can't comprehend why he got in. I know I saw it from start to finish and don't get it. Why can't it be the same for Duff? Neither you or Canadiens1958 explained to me why it took 30 years for them to induct him and why all of the sudden 2006 and not prior years. For decades the committee thought the way I did, that Duff could get into the HHOF only if he bought a ticket.

By the way, if you are a GM and you have Keon, Gilmour and Duff to choose from who is your third choice? That shouldn't be hard. Duff did not hit the heights of either of them.

 

[Big Phil]

How do you figure that? Duff got to play with & fully experience the glory of the 2 leading Dynasty's during the waning years of the Golden Era & during the formative years of the NHL's first major Expansion. He got to play for & with Legends like Punch Imlach & Toe Blake, Red Kelly & Jean Beliveau, having his name etched on the Stanley Cup 6X's in 2 different cities. The Leafs & the Habs had dressing rooms full of Leaders, though Montreal with the greatest Captain the games ever known in Jean Beliveau. In Toronto, Duff was an Assistant Captain, and there you had any number of players who could have easily worn the C or the A yet they chose Dick Duff. Why would that be do you think Phil?.....

Wendel Clark was captain and I have no issue with that and can fully understand why but I am not putting him in the HHOF either.

Much has been written about George Armstrong, why he was selected Captain, laid back guy, Captain because he was so laid back. Effective in taking off the edge with a joke. A sort of "social convenor". Spent much of his time calming down the younger players after one of Imlachs tirades. Poor George there a sort of glorified Babysitter at times. Duff on the other hand, as an Assistant, he was your on ice Lawyer.... had the respect of everyone in the room.... So "better career"? I dont think so. About Even Steven all things considered. If I had to choose myself which career; all of it with the Leafs or half with Toronto & half of it in Montreal, I'd go with the latter. You kiddin? Best of both worlds at the moment in time. As for talent, effectiveness, that too a wash. On par with & interchangeable in some respects though they played different positions obviously. Frankly I preferred Duff to Armstrong in terms of grit, compete & fight. Guy had a serious hockey IQ.

So did others. John Tonelli did. You can make a laundry list of the things you can like about Tonelli. Is he a HHOFer though? Does he crack that bar? I think he needed more prolific seasons to do it. It isn't as if you can't find good things about Duff, it is whether or not you think he belongs among the best of all-time. All you are describing is a Hall of Very Good player. You have to admit there are selections that have political overtones to it. When Patrick Marleau gets in (I have lost faith that the HHOF will go back to high standards so he's all but in) it will not be a good selection but he'll have the Toronto media pushing him in there.

Neither the Leafs nor the Habs stopped winning Cups after trading Duff. He contributed, but he was replaceable.

 

[Big Phil]

Very debatable. Armstrong marginally better offensively, known for his ability to cover Bobby Hull.

Dick Duff came up big offensively in the miracle 1959 run to make the playoffs while playing solid defence against the leading RWs of his time - Bathgate, Howe, Geoffrion.

With the Canadiens he was the 1st or 2nd LW based non specific needs, able to play with Beliveau or Henri Richard. Defensively was able and willing to comeback and support Ted Harris when he entered the league.

Excellent in the playoffs. Gillies nor Barber have his playoff pedigree or longevity.

That is all well and good that he put up some points so that the Leafs got into the playoffs in 1959. That being said he still never surpassed 53 points in a season nor 17th in scoring.

If I have to quote from you, a top 20 player in Andreychuk's day is a top 4 player in Duff's day. If you really believe this (I never said I did by the way) then what is a guy in the original 6 who can't even crack the top 15 in scoring? There is a name for him. Shane Doan. Brenden Morrow. Ryan Smyth. Guys like that. Nothing wrong with that, but neither get into the HHOF. There is a reason Duff was snubbed for 30 years and no one batted an eye.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Killion, you should know by now I am not young. That being said, most people on here saw Andreychuk's career and can't comprehend why he got in. I know I saw it from start to finish and don't get it. Why can't it be the same for Duff? Neither you or Canadiens1958 explained to me why it took 30 years for them to induct him and why all of the sudden 2006 and not prior years. For decades the committee thought the way I did, that Duff could get into the HHOF only if he bought a ticket.

By the way, if you are a GM and you have Keon, Gilmour and Duff to choose from who is your third choice? That shouldn't be hard. Duff did not hit the heights of either of them.

Bolded is only an issue in your world. Certain aspects of life - education, literacy, election to the HHOF are not bound by time. Does not have to be acquired or awarded based on YOUR schedule but is flexible, an eternal process.

Old saying that only the fools and the dead cannot change their minds. Obviously the HHOF committee was/is neither.

Keon on many occassions lamented the trade that sent Dick Duff to the Rangers while returning Andy Bathgate.