The Snake Draft in Hindsight

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Evilo

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Vyacheslav said:
OT

Evilo, I hope by Sabourin=Lehtonen you're making an equation signifying the fact that both names have eight letters :)
Nah, just proving that goalie stats mean jack when you don't consider the rest of the team. Sabourin and Lehtonen's stats were nearly similar last year in the AHL. :)
 
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Evilo said:
Nah, just proving that goalie stats mean jack when you don't consider the rest of the team. Sabourin and Lehtonen's stats were nearly similar last year in the AHL. :)

;)

Just messin with ya and trying to be witty. Let's get back to the Caps getting screwed.
 

Evilo

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Vyacheslav said:
;)

Just messin with ya and trying to be witty. Let's get back to the Caps getting screwed.
I know, don't worry....
You know I wouldn't trade Sabourin for that bum Lehtonen.

And yeah these Caps are getting screwed... few fans and the ones they have feel screwed :eek:
;)
 

me2

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HockeyCritter said:
Why is it when the Pens "sold" their high contract players and went with youth it was called a "rebuild" and when Washington does the same thing it's called "tanking"? :dunno:

Tanking and rebuilding are not mutually exclusive. Washington could be a playoff contender now if it wanted to, it didn't. Washington is exactly were it is because that is where it wants to be. What has that got to do with the Penguins? Absolutely nothing.
 

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I can see why Leonosis wouldn't want to pour more money down a hole, but is having the number ranked system such an injustice?
 

Tap on the Ankle

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It's the Capitals' own fault; they should have forwarded their plans of tanking this season to the NHL and then Bettman would have gladly handed them the 1st overall pick in the 2005 NHL Entry Draft, and skipped the lottery altogether.

:rolleyes:
 

HockeyCritter

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Evilo said:
- Probably because the Pens never had a deep pocket owner, unlike Leonsis.
- Probably because the Pens couldn't afford their star players, while Washington could.
- Probably because when the Pens fell down on their faces, there was no Ovechkin or Crosby available.

The Caps got one of the best prospects ever through winning the lottery in a year where they didn't have the worst record, but dealt away big player after big player IN ORDER to suck.
I'd say you really don't have to whine here.

I asked a legitimate question and I would appreciate a serious, non-flippant answer or, at the very least, present one that demonstrates a modicum of understanding of the complete situation in Washington. The sheer volume of animosity hurled at Washington at times is mind-boggling. Why is it that Washington is expected to sustain substantial losses year in and year out yet it is acceptable for other teams to say “enough?†Just because Lincoln Holdings is financially solid does not mean that they should toss good money after bad (visa vie the Rangers). Unlike Pittsburgh, they do not have to play for a new arena (though Capitals/Lincoln Holdings do not receive any MCI revenue, that goes to Washington Sports and Entertainment) and as such do not feel the immediate pressure of having to win now to save their team.

How wrong is it for a team with a $50-million plus payroll (one that never left the bottom five) full of underachieving, apathetic players that accomplished nothing (zero, nada, zilch, zippo) gutted in favor of a younger team? This ideology was especially pertinent with a new economic landscape on the horizon. While people like to emphatically state that the Capitals “tanked†(though you did use the polite “in order to suck†(in quite large letters too)) to be assured a bottom finish, the simple truth is that the team was firmly ensconced in the bottom of the rankings quite early in the season. I’ll say that again since this basic point is conveniently overlooked; the Capitals with the talented misters Bondra, Lang, Jagr, Gonchar, Kolzig et al were a bottom three team. Besides, it’s not like the Capitals had their team perform wind sprints in “fitness tests†prior to games now is it? :snide:

For too long the Capitals have been middle of the road; good enough to get into the playoffs, but not good enough to win; bad enough to be tossed in the first round, but not bad enough to warrant high impact draft picks. This franchise absolutely needed to be gutted and rebuilt from the ground up (personally, I think it should have happened three seasons ago). Knowing that the NHL was going to lose an entire season in the upcoming CBA war, this was the most opportune time to do so. Therefore the high dollar contracts and soon-to-be-UFAs are sent packing and the younger players are brought in. As a Capital fan I am glad that Lincoln Holdings finally “got it†and decided to commit fully to rebuild mode, anything less would have returned this team to perpetually mediocrity (now, if only my other team would learn that lesson).

Since the Capitals are in year one of a rebuild I see absolutely no reason for them to spend $35-million on free agents that will accomplish little in terms of team or player development. This is the season that the franchise will learn which prospects are the real deal and which are hype. Through evaluation of play (both individually and collectively) the Capitals will determine which of their prospects they will build around and which areas need reinforcement. While I may be “just a silly girl†I believe that this is the wisest course of action.

Regarding your other “points†~ ~ ~ ~

The last time the team that finished dead last actually won the lottery was Boston in 1997 (Thornton). If I remember correctly, three of the last five years the team that finished 28th won the lottery.

Regarding "there being no Ovechkin or Crosby available" to Pittsburgh, Malkin was a lovely consolation prize for "falling on their face" as well as landing a number five (Whitney) pick and two number one picks (Fleury, Crosby) accumulated by the Pens in a span of four years. The Pens stank for five years as they attempted to rebuild their team. Good for them as the rewards for stinking look like they might finally pay off. Pittsburgh also has the additional pressure of playing for a new arena; therefore the onus is on them to win now rather then later. The Pens have to spend money to ice a team that could make the playoffs in hopes of keeping their team in Pittsburgh.
 

Aarex

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If I had my way there would be a Lottery draft held every year. With the games current economic situation, with a CBA that evens the playing fields there is no reason a team should not beable to ice a competitive team.
 

Evilo

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HockeyCritter said:
I asked a legitimate question and I would appreciate a serious, non-flippant answer or, at the very least, present one that demonstrates a modicum of understanding of the complete situation in Washington. The sheer volume of animosity hurled at Washington at times is mind-boggling. Why is it that Washington is expected to sustain substantial losses year in and year out yet it is acceptable for other teams to say “enough?†Just because Lincoln Holdings is financially solid does not mean that they should toss good money after bad (visa vie the Rangers). Unlike Pittsburgh, they do not have to play for a new arena (though Capitals/Lincoln Holdings do not receive any MCI revenue, that goes to Washington Sports and Entertainment) and as such do not feel the immediate pressure of having to win now to save their team.

How wrong is it for a team with a $50-million plus payroll (one that never left the bottom five) full of underachieving, apathetic players that accomplished nothing (zero, nada, zilch, zippo) gutted in favor of a younger team? This ideology was especially pertinent with a new economic landscape on the horizon. While people like to emphatically state that the Capitals “tanked†(though you did use the polite “in order to suck†(in quite large letters too)) to be assured a bottom finish, the simple truth is that the team was firmly ensconced in the bottom of the rankings quite early in the season. I’ll say that again since this basic point is conveniently overlooked; the Capitals with the talented misters Bondra, Lang, Jagr, Gonchar, Kolzig et al were a bottom three team. Besides, it’s not like the Capitals had their team perform wind sprints in “fitness tests†prior to games now is it? :snide:

For too long the Capitals have been middle of the road; good enough to get into the playoffs, but not good enough to win; bad enough to be tossed in the first round, but not bad enough to warrant high impact draft picks. This franchise absolutely needed to be gutted and rebuilt from the ground up (personally, I think it should have happened three seasons ago). Knowing that the NHL was going to lose an entire season in the upcoming CBA war, this was the most opportune time to do so. Therefore the high dollar contracts and soon-to-be-UFAs are sent packing and the younger players are brought in. As a Capital fan I am glad that Lincoln Holdings finally “got it†and decided to commit fully to rebuild mode, anything less would have returned this team to perpetually mediocrity (now, if only my other team would learn that lesson).

Since the Capitals are in year one of a rebuild I see absolutely no reason for them to spend $35-million on free agents that will accomplish little in terms of team or player development. This is the season that the franchise will learn which prospects are the real deal and which are hype. Through evaluation of play (both individually and collectively) the Capitals will determine which of their prospects they will build around and which areas need reinforcement. While I may be “just a silly girl†I believe that this is the wisest course of action.

Regarding your other “points†~ ~ ~ ~

The last time the team that finished dead last actually won the lottery was Boston in 1997 (Thornton). If I remember correctly, three of the last five years the team that finished 28th won the lottery.

Regarding "there being no Ovechkin or Crosby available" to Pittsburgh, Malkin was a lovely consolation prize for "falling on their face" as well as landing a number five (Whitney) pick and two number one picks (Fleury, Crosby) accumulated by the Pens in a span of four years. The Pens stank for five years as they attempted to rebuild their team. Good for them as the rewards for stinking look like they might finally pay off. Pittsburgh also has the additional pressure of playing for a new arena; therefore the onus is on them to win now rather then later. The Pens have to spend money to ice a team that could make the playoffs in hopes of keeping their team in Pittsburgh.
Except that your team made the playoffs the year before. There was no reason to deal everyone away except trying to suck.
They sucked with their stars, but the year before they were a playoff threat. New Jersey missed the playoffs after having won their first cup. What would you have said if they had dismantled their whole team because they suddenly sucked?
Even the Caps' coach was made for the team to suck IMO.
Anyway, I have no hatred towards Washington (check the other threads all you want).
The fact remains you compared two different situations and managed to whine about the differences.
Likewise, you managed to excuse Borro's very weak attempt at whining when your team managed so much luck to get Ovechkin when they had the third pourcentage.
Rather than looking at how many times the 1st team won the lottery, check how many times the third team managed to win the lottery, and then come back to me and tell me how the Caps are unlucky and got screwed.
 

borro

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What a bunch of politicans you guys are. Nobody really answered the question, how can the Caps go from not deserving a Top 10 to last without factoring in free agency. The fact is that those who claimed we should not have had 3 balls are now hypocrites for saying we are last. It is a point of convenience. You know we deserved at least a Top 5 but your personal greed enables you to find excuses why we do a snake draft. Let's use free agency to cover ourselves. It's a crock! The fact is the Caps should have had a Top 5 pick. It is a matter of principle. We deserved a Top 5 pick. Nobody whines when Pittsburgh and Atlanta get high pick after high pick but when an opportunity arises for the Caps, nobody can admit we were hosed.
 

Seachd

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borro said:
What a bunch of politicans you guys are. Nobody really answered the question, how can the Caps go from not deserving a Top 10 to last without factoring in free agency. The fact is that those who claimed we should not have had 3 balls are now hypocrites for saying we are last. It is a point of convenience. You know we deserved at least a Top 5 but your personal greed enables you to find excuses why we do a snake draft. Let's use free agency to cover ourselves. It's a crock! The fact is the Caps should have had a Top 5 pick. It is a matter of principle. We deserved a Top 5 pick. Nobody whines when Pittsburgh and Atlanta get high pick after high pick but when an opportunity arises for the Caps, nobody can admit we were hosed.
Isn't this something you should be complaining about after this season, when we actually know how they'll do? Of course, people will care even less then than they do now, and that's saying something.

I think instead of insisting that the Capitals got hosed for the 2005 draft, you should look at what will actually happen, and that's the Caps getting a much better pick than they deserve for 2006.
 

Evilo

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You know what a snake draft is you know?
Because you blame the snake draft, while you seem to blame everyting but it.
Anyway, the Caps have plenty of cap space, if they had invested money into building a competitive team this summer, you'd hear not talk about being last. Example : Pittsurgh.
 

borro

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Evilo said:
You know what a snake draft is you know?
Because you blame the snake draft, while you seem to blame everyting but it.
Anyway, the Caps have plenty of cap space, if they had invested money into building a competitive team this summer, you'd hear not talk about being last. Example : Pittsurgh.

Free agency is a cop out. Bad was the existing core team. Queen of DE NILE (denial) Let's skirt the issue.
 

Evilo

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borro said:
Free agency is a cop out. Bad was the existing core team. Queen of DE NILE (denial) Let's skirt the issue.
What did the Pens have over the Caps?
They finished worst in the standings, and were talked about for relocation.
Exactly why were the Caps in a lesser position than the Pens?
 

Ghost of jas

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The Caps' got screwed??

The Rangers were probably destined to be be every bit as bad as the Caps last year, were given three shots at #1 in the lottery, and ended up picking 16th??!! (For the clueless, that would be after the Caps at 14.) Spare me. :shakehead
 

Evilo

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Hawks are the most unlucky of them all.
The have the worst owner, they have bad records year after year and they can't get any break in any lottery.
THAT is a team that gets screwed. Surely not the whining Caps.
 

borro

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Let's simplify this so some can understand...

Caps status pre draft: One of worst teams in the league
Assumption: The draft is designed to give poorer teams a chance to get talent.
Reality: Caps, Panthers and other teams get hosed by not getting top picks DESPITE being the worst teams
Add Insult to Injury: Teams like Atlanta who have had multiple high picks get better chances. The Rangers get a much better chance than they deserved. They even get hosed in the end.

Now a few months later, the very folks that make the claim that the Caps did not deserve a Top 10 pick, universally declare us the worst team. Given the assumption listed above, we were hosed. Classic waffling. You want to call us worst, don't do it after insisting we did not deserve a high pick. You do the assumption a misjustice. You either say we are a middle of the road team and draft there or we are a bad team and draft there. When you say we are a middle of the road team, you discount FREE agency. It does not impact where a team is, each team has equal chances. That is the way the rules are.

CONCLUSION: Some teams were hosed by the draft because it did not approximate any ORDER OF FINISH. Some tems like Ottawa unfairly benefitted solely because we had a work stoppage. If someone can prove to me that Ottawa would have had the 9th pik had we had no strike, I will stop mentioning this. the fact that you cannot proves ny argument more than holds it's validity.

When all else fails, and you have no argument you can always try the "resort to whining" argument that is spewed out here ad nauseum.
 

borro

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Evilo said:
What did the Pens have over the Caps?
They finished worst in the standings, and were talked about for relocation.
Exactly why were the Caps in a lesser position than the Pens?

Yes getting stuck with "Malkin" was so bad. He will probably never make the NHL. Malkin, Whitney etc etc etc.
 

Evilo

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borro said:
Yes getting stuck with "Malkin" was so bad. He will probably never make the NHL. Malkin, Whitney etc etc etc.
You avoided to answer.
Why didn't the Caps spend as much as the Pens while having a slightly better team (according to the last NHL standings)?
If they had, they would not be talked as bottom feeders right now.
 

zeppelin97

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borro said:
CONCLUSION: Some teams were hosed by the draft because it did not approximate any ORDER OF FINISH. Some tems like Ottawa unfairly benefitted solely because we had a work stoppage. If someone can prove to me that Ottawa would have had the 9th pik had we had no strike, I will stop mentioning this. the fact that you cannot proves ny argument more than holds it's validity.

When all else fails, and you have no argument you can always try the "resort to whining" argument that is spewed out here ad nauseum.

Caps aren't entitled to anything. No matter how much they suck, the ground rules changed for the draft this year.

The rules for this draft were set so its a slightly weighted lottery system.

I think your problem is you simply can't accept the ground rules *changed* for this draft.
 

Evilo

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Yep. It'd be like me whining that the rules changed when they implemented the lottery and whining because the Pens didn't get BOTH Ovechkin and Crosby as they were last in the last NHL season.
How can any Caps fan whine after getting Ovechkin with only a slight chance?
Hawks were worse than the Caps in the last NHL season, and they picked TWICE behind the Caps.
 

Marshall

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This is clearly not getting through to you despite repeated assertions, so it bears repeating: confusing any Caps fan's opinion with borro's is a misrepresentation - to put it mildly.


Now:

"Except that your team made the playoffs the year before. There was no reason to deal everyone away except trying to suck."

Yeah, there is, it's called not losing a lot of money while not making the playoffs. It's what there was a lockout for (you may have heard of it). If you can't see this, then you must have missed a bunch of salary dumps that happened over the years, some from your favorite team (Aside: Leonsis made his own dumb mistakes, and shouldn't have made them. He did. However, he's also allowed to try and fix them).


"They sucked with their stars, but the year before they were a playoff threat. New Jersey missed the playoffs after having won their first cup. What would you have said if they had dismantled their whole team because they suddenly sucked?"

I'd steal a line from you: "The fact remains you compared two different situations and managed to whine about the differences."

"Even the Caps' coach was made for the team to suck IMO."

Baloney. It was a dumb hire, but if you think that any coach is ever hired to flat-out fail, you're crazy. They made the playoffs with him as coach, as you pointed out.



"Anyway, I have no hatred towards Washington (check the other threads all you want).
The fact remains you compared two different situations and managed to whine about the differences."

Correction: borro is whining. Critter is discussing. Huge difference. And frankly, you shouldn't neccesarily be the first person to accuse others of whining.


"Likewise, you managed to excuse Borro's very weak attempt at whining when your team managed so much luck to get Ovechkin when they had the third pourcentage."

She did no such thing. Critter's position has always been that there shouldn't have been a lottery this year.


"Rather than looking at how many times the 1st team won the lottery, check how many times the third team managed to win the lottery, and then come back to me and tell me how the Caps are unlucky and got screwed."

Again, did Critter say that? Please show me where.


Also interesting that you skipped right over the part about the wind-sprints.


Ed: I should also add that I think a case can be made against the Caps for tanking, but it has nothing to do with the firesale. It has a lot to do with a player named Matt Yeats.
 
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Tap on the Ankle

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borro said:
CONCLUSION: Some teams were hosed by the draft because it did not approximate any ORDER OF FINISH.

There was no season, therefore there could be no order of finish. A league-wide lottery was the fairest way to handle the draft.

borro said:
Some tems like Ottawa unfairly benefitted solely because we had a work stoppage. If someone can prove to me that Ottawa would have had the 9th pik had we had no strike, I will stop mentioning this. the fact that you cannot proves ny argument more than holds it's validity.

Oh please. If anything, the Senators (and Tampa, for that matter) got the worst deal of anyone. They're going to have to sit around and watch their carefully built potential dynasty get flushed down the toilet (due to the salary cap, lower UFA age, and lack of a clause which helps good drafting teams retain their home-grown players) for the benefit of the financially insecure teams. A silly ninth overall pick is not going to make up for that. The Sens, as a whole, have gained nothing from this lockout. They have only lost. Quit trying to paint this picture with the wrong colours.
 

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jas said:
The Rangers were probably destined to be be every bit as bad as the Caps last year, were given three shots at #1 in the lottery, and ended up picking 16th??!! (For the clueless, that would be after the Caps at 14.) Spare me. :shakehead
Or go talk to florida.

And it's not like the Caps couldn't have traded up into the top ten, those 2 2nds were enought to get you another first.
 
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