News Article: The rise, fall, and stalled rebuild of Ken Holland’s Red Wings

[Redder Winger]

Picking up vets on 1 year deals is exactly what rebuilding teams do, Vanek and Ott are nothing like the Nielsen signing.

Dealing Jurco and signing Vanek was a 2 third round pick swing rather than just keeping Jurco. Who is currently an ahler.

Pulky well, he's just not an NHL caliber player imo. But you know this already.

Pulkkinen could be doing exactly what Frk is doing - and probably better.
He's got 9 points in 3 AHL games.

It's criminal that some team isn't using him on their PP in the NHL.

But when you're 5'10 and not fast, and you've got all these 6'2 prospects and size queen coaches, that's life.

And I'm fine with signing a Vanek to trade him if he doesn't bump a 24 year old out of a job
If Vanek bumps some old guy out of a job, great.

 

[Ezekial]

Pulkkinen could be doing exactly what Frk is doing - and probably better.
He's got 9 points in 3 AHL games.

It's criminal that some team isn't using him on their PP in the NHL.

But when you're 5'10 and not fast, and you've got all these 6'2 prospects and size queen coaches, that's life.

And I'm fine with signing a Vanek to trade him if he doesn't bump a 24 year old out of a job
If Vanek bumps some old guy out of a job, great.

Dude, Pulkkinen was given a chance to do what Frk does now for 2 seasons. I don't get your hard on for the kid that had 2 goals on the PP for us in 142 minutes in that situation.

I don't find it criminal to scratch a player regularly that can't cut it at even strength at all and can't hit the net on the PP in the NHL. Frk has more control of his shot, that makes his weapon better.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Pulks was not very good in the NHL. He was terrible at getting his shot off, and was not effective in any other facet of the game. He can only blame himself for not having an NHL spot right now.

 

[chances14]

pulkkinen and jurco were terrible nhl players and were given ample opportunities with the wings. Pulkkinen couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with his shot and Jurco was never the same after his back injury. it's no coincidence that both are in the minors now

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

1. Leafs did not rebuild like we are. They traded TONS of picks and prospects, they had plenty of possibilities for an actual rebuild if they had played it the way Holland did instead of going for quick fixes.
2. If 10 teams tank, 7 or 8 of them seem to get stuck in the bottom or not make it to much more than the dreaded purgatory. But we're in a situation where we might get a top 3 pick even without actively tanking, just by virtue of how poor our roster is and the way the draft lottery works. And if you have a somewhat functioning team, you don't need to add talent on the level of McDavid in order to move the needle. Or talent on the level of Matthews+Nylander+Marner+Babcock. I mean if you dropped Dahlin onto this roster, we'd be pretty good right away.

The key to Holland's strategy working is that he can't overextend in an effort to keep the team competitive. Signing Daley is a perfect compromise between not trying at all and going for the playoffs. Now we see where the chips fall. We're still many years away from what can be seen as a "long rebuild".

No, Dahlin does not make us pretty good or an immediate contender or put us in a position to do damage in the playoffs. He simply puts us in a position to genuinely build towards that status. There will be plenty of building left to be done after drafting him. If you want to truly compete for the cup you need to have multiple elite players, not just one. As always, there is a ton of wishful thinking in your postings on this subject.

 

[Redder Winger]

Take a look at Pulkkinen's last season in Detroit.
Before he was hurt and relegated to a tiny role:
23 games 6G 5A 12:52 a night (296 Minutes)
Even if you just multiply by 3 that's 18 goals and 15 assists in 69 games at 13 minutes a night.

But then he comes back from injury and gets 9 minutes a night and plays just 14 games in 4 1/2 months.
Because, you know, Brad Richards needs that development time.

 

[Ezekial]

Take a look at Pulkkinen's last season in Detroit.
Before he was hurt and relegated to a tiny role:
23 games 6G 5A 12:52 a night (296 Minutes)
Even if you just multiply by 3 that's 18 goals and 15 assists in 69 games at 13 minutes a night.

But then he comes back from injury and gets 9 minutes a night and plays just 14 games in 4 1/2 months.
Because, you know, Brad Richards needs that development time.

Marty Frk has 4 points in 7 games playing 12 mins a night. Multiply that by 11.5 and that's 46 points... In 12 minutes!


The fact of the matter is, Pulks had 83 games in which he produced 22 points. That's not a good total for a pure offensive talent (who faced bottom 6 forwards) and couldn't utilize his greatest asset efficiently.

If the wings made such a huge mistake he would've stuck in Minnesota... Or Arizona.... Or made Vegas out of camp.

 

[njx9]

I really would've thought the Pulk arguments would end once he went through two other systems that also didn't see NHL value in him. Slow, weak on the puck, shot that couldn't get through. Blech. I wish him the best, but he's not an NHL player and I doubt he ever will be.

 

[chances14]

I really would've thought the Pulk arguments would end once he went through two other systems that also didn't see NHL value in him. Slow, weak on the puck, shot that couldn't get through. Blech. I wish him the best, but he's not an NHL player and I doubt he ever will be.

as long as holland and blashill are still here, people will always find a way to blame a player's failures solely on them

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Take a look at Pulkkinen's last season in Detroit.
Before he was hurt and relegated to a tiny role:
23 games 6G 5A 12:52 a night (296 Minutes)
Even if you just multiply by 3 that's 18 goals and 15 assists in 69 games at 13 minutes a night.

But then he comes back from injury and gets 9 minutes a night and plays just 14 games in 4 1/2 months.
Because, you know, Brad Richards needs that development time.

That would be 33 points in 69 games... for an all offense winger who provides NOTHING in any other aspect of the game. Why does this sound familiar?

There is more to hockey than getting on the stats sheet. An all offense winger scoring 0.43 PPG against the opponent's worst players is not always some fantastic unearthed gem. That's a player doing what he probably ought to do against slipshod competition.

Players who score 30 points at the NHL level are a dime a dozen. They are exactly the players that you're so sick of seeing the Wings have. To be a terrible defensive player... you have to do better than "good" in the role you're given.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I really would've thought the Pulk arguments would end once he went through two other systems that also didn't see NHL value in him. Slow, weak on the puck, shot that couldn't get through. Blech. I wish him the best, but he's not an NHL player and I doubt he ever will be.

Agreed. It became apparent that he couldn't make the adjustments necessary to get his shot off at NHL game speed. Too many were blocked or ripped wide of the net.

And if his shot isn't a threat, there's not a lot else there.

 

[Oddbob]

Pulkkinen could be doing exactly what Frk is doing - and probably better.
He's got 9 points in 3 AHL games.

It's criminal that some team isn't using him on their PP in the NHL.

But when you're 5'10 and not fast, and you've got all these 6'2 prospects and size queen coaches, that's life.

And I'm fine with signing a Vanek to trade him if he doesn't bump a 24 year old out of a job
If Vanek bumps some old guy out of a job, great.

Wowzers, you are actually sitting their and saying Pulkkinen should be here and Frk shouldn't, WOW! That comment is one of the worst I have read on these forums. Wowee wowzers, he scored 9 pts in 3 whole AHL games. And he had 34 goals in the AHL the year before he joined our team and completely and utterly sucked. And Alexandre Daigle blew away the QMJHL once too, big whoop!

You mean the same Pulkkinen who would shoot the puck 20 feet wide of the net, if he even managed to get a shot off at all. That and he also lackadaisically coasted around out there more than any Wing player I can ever remember. Frk is better at literally every skill in hockey than Pulkkinen. Shot is harder, more accurate, has actually scored some goals in just 7 games so far, actually back checks, hustles to try and get loose pucks and actually competes, when he doesn't have the puck.

All of that doesn't even come into question how Pulkkinen being gone is a negative or reason why we are where we are right now?

 

[Classicnamesup]

Good article. So many on here had to be dragged kicking and screaming into reality. Bad team, few quality prospects, anchor contracts that go for years. The house is a mess and I don't trust Ken to fix it after he built it.

 

[Henkka]

It's not tanking if you accept that you need to play the kids and some of the veterans take a back seat during the process.
And sometimes, when that happens, you actually play better.

At first you slash the veterans spots should be given to kids and then say on next post that Cholowski and Hronek are nothing.

I laughed. And stopped feeding this troll.

 

[Stephen]

I've always been a fan of the whole GM game and I've been watching Holland for a long time. What's crazy about Detroit is after trying to win that second Stanley Cup in 2009 when they signed Hossa for a year, they just re-signed the wrong guys and stopped trying to actively win. Just coast. It's like they lost the appetite to actually win.

 

[Redder Winger]

That would be 33 points in 69 games... for an all offense winger who provides NOTHING in any other aspect of the game. Why does this sound familiar?

There is more to hockey than getting on the stats sheet. An all offense winger scoring 0.43 PPG against the opponent's worst players is not always some fantastic unearthed gem. That's a player doing what he probably ought to do against slipshod competition.

Players who score 30 points at the NHL level are a dime a dozen. They are exactly the players that you're so sick of seeing the Wings have. To be a terrible defensive player... you have to do better than "good" in the role you're given.

A rookie.
Playing 13 minutes a night.

 

[jkutswings]

At first you slash the veterans spots should be given to kids and then say on next post that Cholowski and Hronek are nothing.

I laughed. And stopped feeding this troll.

They're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I can want to play the kids, even if I'm pessimistic about their talent level, because one of two things will happen:

Either one or more young players will perform significantly above my expectations, and be discovered as a viable asset, or the team will be awful enough to nearly guarantee a top 5 pick.

That sounds like a win-win to those interested in a tandem of significant roster turnover and drafting high.

 

[Fynn]

as long as holland and blashill are still here, people will always find a way to blame a player's failures solely on them

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the coaching staff and management to be able to develop players, especially those who have excelled at the AHL level. Most on the roster seem to have declined since the arrival of Blashill. I can't see how that would not be a concern.

 

[Pavels Dog]

No, Dahlin does not make us pretty good or an immediate contender or put us in a position to do damage in the playoffs. He simply puts us in a position to genuinely build towards that status. There will be plenty of building left to be done after drafting him. If you want to truly compete for the cup you need to have multiple elite players, not just one. As always, there is a ton of wishful thinking in your postings on this subject.

You're always building and/or re-building. It never stops. So to say we would have building left after landing Dahlin is just stating the obvious. Edmonton still has building left after landing McDavid, Buffalo has building left after Eichel, Toronto has building left after Matthews. But you're not counting with the fact that guys like Mantha/Larkin/etc are currently stuck with one of the worst D-corps in the league and one of the worst PPs and probably one of the worst coaches. If this is the kind of team that those two can currently be flirting with PPG on, what happens if you transform the D with an elite #1? What happens after a coaching change and big improvement to PP? What happens when additional 1st round talents such as Rasmussen, Svech and Cholowski bolster the roster? You think that could add to the point totals of our existing players?
Call it wishful thinking, but I don't understand why Detroit has to be the only team that needs 3 or 4 McDavid level talents in order to have a shot at some deep playoff runs. Ottawa does it with Karlsson and not much else. NYR did it with Lundqvist and not much else. Nashville has the D, but not the most impressive forwards. Heck Pittsburgh just won the cup with a pretty lackluster lineup on D.

If you're looking for us to find ourselves in a situation where we have two Selke-caliber #1Cs and the best d-man of all time, I understand the pessimism about our future. But you don't need that to compete.

 

[Frk It]

You're always building and/or re-building. It never stops. So to say we would have building left after landing Dahlin is just stating the obvious. Edmonton still has building left after landing McDavid, Buffalo has building left after Eichel, Toronto has building left after Matthews. But you're not counting with the fact that guys like Mantha/Larkin/etc are currently stuck with one of the worst D-corps in the league and one of the worst PPs and probably one of the worst coaches. If this is the kind of team that those two can currently be flirting with PPG on, what happens if you transform the D with an elite #1? What happens after a coaching change and big improvement to PP? What happens when additional 1st round talents such as Rasmussen, Svech and Cholowski bolster the roster? You think that could add to the point totals of our existing players?
Call it wishful thinking, but I don't understand why Detroit has to be the only team that needs 3 or 4 McDavid level talents in order to have a shot at some deep playoff runs. Ottawa does it with Karlsson and not much else. NYR did it with Lundqvist and not much else. Nashville has the D, but not the most impressive forwards. Heck Pittsburgh just won the cup with a pretty lackluster lineup on D.

If you're looking for us to find ourselves in a situation where we have two Selke-caliber #1Cs and the best d-man of all time, I understand the pessimism about our future. But you don't need that to compete.

Crosby has the 6th best PPG... of all time.

Karlsson has the 8th best PPG among defenseman... of all time

Malkin has the 14th best PPG... of all time.

Yes, you can have holes elsewhere on your roster when you have special, special players like that.

Until we have what they have in that regard, shouldn’t expect us to be doing any of the same things.

 

[Stephen]

If you're looking for us to find ourselves in a situation where we have two Selke-caliber #1Cs and the best d-man of all time, I understand the pessimism about our future. But you don't need that to compete.

Yes you do, you should know coming from a Detroit perspective. You can be a team that hangs around in the playoff picture with one star and a cast of misfits or whatever, but to truly compete, truly have a chance to win, you need to load up on those special talents.

 

[jkutswings]

Crosby has the 6th best PPG... of all time.

Karlsson has the 8th best PPG among defenseman... of all time

Malkin has the 14th best PPG... of all time.

Yes, you can have holes elsewhere on your roster when you have special, special players like that.

Until we have what they have in that regard, shouldn’t expect us to be doing any of the same things.

Agreed. Not to mention that saying things like Larkin and Mantha are, "flirting with PPG" is a VERY small sample size, right after one of those players had a horrendous season, and the other was alternating between looking very good and getting benched for a lack of effort/focus.

Henrik Zetterberg is the start, middle, and end of the list when it comes to anybody on the roster or in the pipeline that was, is, or will be in the echelon of a Crosby or a Karlsson.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Crosby has the 6th best PPG... of all time.

Karlsson has the 8th best PPG among defenseman... of all time

Malkin has the 14th best PPG... of all time.

Yes, you can have holes elsewhere on your roster when you have special, special players like that.

Until we have what they have in that regard, shouldn’t expect us to be doing any of the same things.

Personally, I wouldn't expect us to find Crosby+Malkin or a Karlsson even if we draft #1 for the next decade. You do your best with what you have. Z and Dats were not Crosby and Malkin but we did alright with them. Lidstrom was special but we got beaten by teams that didn't have a Lidstrom. Kopitar isn't Crosby and Doughty isn't Lidstrom, but LA won a couple of Cups. And no one knows what will be succesful 5 years from now. Of course we need special players, but that's so beyond obvious that it's not worth discussing. We're not going to win with a bunch of 2nd liners. Rasmus Dahlin is an elite level talent, maybe he doesn't turn into something as good as Karlsson, but to say we wouldn't become a decent team with him added to the roster seems overly pessimistic. I'm sorry to say it, but we will not be drafting Dahlin+the next Crosby+the next Malkin within the next 5 or even 10 years. Even getting one prospect of that caliber is a massive longshot under the current lottery system. Why that would make you sit around thinking we're doomed to never compete I don't understand though.

 

[Redder Winger]

Zetterberg and Datsyuk were every bit as good as Crosby and Malkin

 

[TheMule93]

Zetterberg and Datsyuk were every bit as good as Crosby and Malkin

Nah, maybe at their peaks they were equals (even that's a stretch) but Crosby and malkin maintained a higher level of play for most of their careers