the players and their Hypocrisy!

[X0ssbar]

You mean teams could trade players and potentially talk them into more reasonable contracts to come in line with the proposal? Wow, imagine that the NHL are not totalitarian psychos.

I guess the new system would last for more than the 30 minutes pro-PA'ers here are spouting?? Wow, I'm so glad I don't swallow their crap without thinking like a lot of people seem to.

Actually, if I read this article right I don't think the new system would kick until after next season - that is if the triggers fail - which we all know that in their current state they would.

"The NHLPA is willing to live with their 9/12 offer, otherwise they never would have made it, right?

The NHL is saying it's willing to live with it for two years."

 

[kerrly]

Where does it say the NHLPA isn't considering negotiating the triggers? I'm mostly on the side of cost-certainty in this, but I wouldn't have taken that deal. I would have turned it down, gone back to my office, and started thinking about triggers I'd be willing to live with. Once you figure out what triggers would be acceptable, then you need to come up with what your counter offer will include (and it's got to push more more than what you'd accept.. otherwise you're not doing your job). It's not like Goodenow can see the proposal and in 15 minutes decide how he wants to counter.

Goodenow said in his press conference yesterday, that they would not negotiate the triggers, and are not interested in the framework of this system at all.

 

[kerrly]

I'm sure Bettman made sure those were non-neogeotatable. It would go right along with his double standards and unreasonable neogeotiating tactics.

How sure are you? I doubt its a sure as I am when I say that Goodenow said that he would not negotiate these triggers, and that this framework would not be the basis for a deal.

 

[dakota]

How do you Know your point # 2 isn't exactly what the on going talks are involving right now and the NHL is not willing to budge from its triggers?? .. This is a 2-way street here these collective bargaining agreements ..

You can believe what you want but to wrongfully accuse the NHLPA of not bargaining in good faith because they did not accept an NHL proposal that immediately switched over to NHL one without opportunity or even an attempt to succeed is either very bias pro-owner or naive IMO ..

The NHLPA could just as easy flip it around and say we start with the NHL proposal and then flip to the NHLPA one when it fails and have similar triggers that virtually guarantee that the NHL one will fail .. For example the NHL suggested a 32 min - 42 max range ..

The NHLPA could say if any 3 teams fall below the $ 32 mil min mark in salary we switch to the NHLPA proposal .. That is no different then what the NHL did .. They said if 3 or more teams exceed $ 42 million we roll over .. and as on right now after a rollback included .. Philly, Toronto, Detroit and NJ are over .. In the flip side .. immediately Boston , Pittsburgh, Florida, Atlanta are way under the $32 min amount, and the NHL proposal has failed immediately as well.. Anyone that can't see both sides is being a Hypocrite ..because it really is the same from both sides .. Bettman would reject that proposal outright and we would hear the same nonsense that Bettman didn't even accept his own proposal or thought it wouldn't work ..

Why would it be different .. The NHLPA is even using Bettman's own numbers in the triggers against him with 100% guaranteed failure immediately .. ??

I think Bettman would take that... he would get his cap... 24% rollback first.. (its in there proposal on Feb2) then once all finances are done if there are PA triggers they switch over to the luxury tax system... with revenue sharing... I think the owners and the players could accept this system.

 

[kerrly]

Please find me a quote where Bettman says "Here's our proposal, but don't worry about the triggers, we're perfectly willing to negotiate all of them into your favor."

There is no reason to believe he will negotiate or get rid of any of the triggers. They're set up to match his dreamworld salary cap of 55% of revenues, a payroll range of $32-$42 million, and average salary of $36 million.

Please find me a quote where he says the triggers aren't negotiable. There is no reason to believe that any or all of these triggers aren't fully negotiable.

 

[Charge_Seven]

You kinda made the point I was going for.

The ones I mentioned didn't spit venom and reek of bias one way or the other. The ones you refer to definitely do.

Those three offered a better and more suitable platform for a civil debate, instead of the usual fanfare that has people constantly at each other's throats and the use of insults is considered normal.

Now, I never expect to set a big thread talked about in such a civil manner all the way through. But it sure as hell would be nice every once in a while to come even close to that. Maybe we could actually learn something instead of hearing the same garbage recycled over and over again.

I pray every day I can come on here without reading posts such as "Ken Klee, you're an idiot...". I can nearly guarantee every day I come here, I'll find a post like that, or my favourite "F*** THE PA". If I were ever able to find a completely civil thread, with everyone cordially disagreeing, yet respecting the oppinions of others I think I would have a heart attack.

It would be fantastic indeed to get to discuss the issues without peoples oppinions boiling over.

(Believe me, I'm the first to admit I can get oppinionated, if you want a link, check out the end of my previous post where I tossed in "Interesting indeed..." it was clearly not neccessary. That is probably what is wrong with many of these discussions, people, myself included, taking little jabs at other fans.)

 

[Charge_Seven]

Just for all who claimed the triggers were negotiable: Bill Daly came straight out today and stated the opposite nearly. Daly, when referring to the triggers, stated that there was very little room to move if any, and that had the NHLPA offered different numbers that he doubted that would be the basis for a deal.

I'm paraphrasing from what was just on CP24 (a news station) which covered his interview. Somewhere soon there should be a transcript of the full press release.

 

[PecaFan]

I'll tell you all whats hypocrisy: people who support the owners and thought this was a legitimate proposal.

The NHLPA did not reject their own offer.

Of course they did. This is the sequence of events:

Owners: We need X to make the league healthy.
Players: (Dec 9) Ok, this proposal will do just that.
Owners: We don't think that proposal will work, let's try something else.
Owners: (Two months later) Ok, since you're so insistent that your Dec. 9 proposal will solve the problems that we have stated to you, let's try it. Here's what we said we needed in "trigger" form.
Players: Hell no!

These triggers that have been so derided by the PA supporters are exactly what the NHL has said all along that they must have to make the league healthy. These triggers were what the Dec. 9th agreement was supposed to provide. When called on it, Goodenow bailed (as he should have), because we all knew that the Dec. 9th proposal wouldn't accomplish anything the league needed. He didn't even *try* and negotiate the triggers.

Was this a "legitimate" proposal by the NHL? Of course not. It was a calculated move to show just how pathetic the *only* PA offer *ever* was. The PA Dec. 9th offer wasn't legitimate either.

 

[The Legend]

The bottom line here is that the 4 triggers are all just a salary cap under a different name.

53 % of the salaries
No more than 3 teams above 42 million after Rollback
Average salary of around 32 million.


These are ALL things that were in the owners salary cap proposal. These are things that are guaranteed to happen in order to get a cap.


The owners who wanted a cap would just bite the bullet and spend enough to get a cap installed.


After rollback, 4 teams, the Leafs, Wings,Flyers, and Rangers would all be above the 42 million dollar mark, without signing any of the free agents.

I dare any pro-owner person to dispute the fact that a cap would be in place immediately.

I just love how some people say that the players rejected their own offer. That's just a stupid statement. The triggers make the players offer for all intensive purposes, a cap.

 

[kerrly]

Just for all who claimed the triggers were negotiable: Bill Daly came straight out today and stated the opposite nearly. Daly, when referring to the triggers, stated that there was very little room to move if any, and that had the NHLPA offered different numbers that he doubted that would be the basis for a deal.

I'm paraphrasing from what was just on CP24 (a news station) which covered his interview. Somewhere soon there should be a transcript of the full press release.

He also stated that Bob Goodenow didn't even try to discuss any of them. The process of negotiation is not about letting the other side know truely where you stand, saying that, Goodenow had no way of knowing how much they would move on them, but still refused to negotiate them. Nice spin, but it didn't work.

 

[habfan4]

Just for all who claimed the triggers were negotiable: Bill Daly came straight out today and stated the opposite nearly. Daly, when referring to the triggers, stated that there was very little room to move if any, and that had the NHLPA offered different numbers that he doubted that would be the basis for a deal.

I'm paraphrasing from what was just on CP24 (a news station) which covered his interview. Somewhere soon there should be a transcript of the full press release.

Not surprisingly the league is claiming the opposite CBC Link

Here's the bit in reference to the triggers. You have to dig through the article to find it.

"The NHL said that the union did not offer to negotiate any of the four triggers during Thursday's meeting.

"The union brought nothing new to the table," said NHL spokesman Gary Meagher."

Gotta love this soap opera

 

[PecaFan]

Just for all who claimed the triggers were negotiable: Bill Daly came straight out today and stated the opposite nearly. Daly, when referring to the triggers, stated that there was very little room to move if any, and that had the NHLPA offered different numbers that he doubted that would be the basis for a deal.

Not quite. First off he said they were negotiable. That's essentially the end of the issue right there, as the PA didn't even try.

Yes, he did state there wasn't a lot of room to move. But of course, we have no idea what he considers "a lot". 1%? 5%? 10%?

 

[krandor]

I dare any pro-owner person to dispute the fact that a cap would be in place immediately.

How can they go into place immediatly when the proposal said the earliest they could start would be the end of next year?

 

[CGG]

Not quite. First off he said they were negotiable. That's essentially the end of the issue right there, as the PA didn't even try.

Yes, he did state there wasn't a lot of room to move. But of course, we have no idea what he considers "a lot". 1%? 5%? 10%?

Not a lot of room to move doesn't imply any hope at all. This is what needed to be done:

Get rid of all the triggers except the 55%, and give it at least two years. Or at least make all teams spend the minimum $30 million before the triggers apply.

 

[kerrly]

Not a lot of room to move doesn't imply any hope at all. This is what needed to be done:

Get rid of all the triggers except the 55%, and give it at least two years. Or at least make all teams spend the minimum $30 million before the triggers apply.

Why should it matter, its a non-factor. The NHLPA refused to negotiate any of the triggers and said yesterday that this framework would not be the basis of an agreement.

 

[txomisc]

Just for all who claimed the triggers were negotiable: Bill Daly came straight out today and stated the opposite nearly. Daly, when referring to the triggers, stated that there was very little room to move if any, and that had the NHLPA offered different numbers that he doubted that would be the basis for a deal.

I'm paraphrasing from what was just on CP24 (a news station) which covered his interview. Somewhere soon there should be a transcript of the full press release.

I was listening on fan590 and what I heard was that he was surprised the NHLPA didn't attempt to negotiate the triggers

 

[txomisc]

Not a lot of room to move doesn't imply any hope at all. This is what needed to be done:

Get rid of all the triggers except the 55%, and give it at least two years. Or at least make all teams spend the minimum $30 million before the triggers apply.

Ok, call Bob up and tell him to propose that. Oh, wait he isn't willing to negotiate the triggers at all.

 

[Trottier]

But the NHL is winning the PR war.

Without question.

However (and I know a bit about this area of business ), to what end?

The NHL has clearly (if one goes by unscientific polls) persuaded the vast majority of its fans that Bettman and ownership are on the right side of these talks. But that is not going to effect the direction of these talks, nor speed up the process. It may have an effect once an agreement is reached...As in, keeping some fans away, as they will harbor at least nearer-term resentment toward the very players/"bums" they are being asked to pay to see. That certainly is not in the best interest of the league and its franchises. In fact, it's counter-productive.

I personally think that fans will return en masse once the games begin. However, just wanted to point out that winning the PR war is a hallow victory. For that victory's current impact is minimal, at best. (Surely, no one is naive enough to think Bob G. & Co. are going to be effected by insults hurled at them by "experts" on a message board, let alone media hacks). And it's potentially detrimental down the road.

 

[BrickRed]

There's nothing to negotiate.

Owners: cap or nothing.
Union: no chance at a cap

It's been the same stance since September. What exactly is there to negotiate?

Goodenow: We don't like these triggers.

Bettman: Okay, forget the triggers. Let's just go with our offer from last week.

Goodenow: Umm, no.

What triggers do the players like? Let write them in a note that the replacement players can deliver in the fall.

 

[BrickRed]

Actually by refusing to even negotiate the triggers the NHLPA rejected their own offer. It's pretty straight forward. When given an opportunity to prove that their proposal would work the NHLPA balked. In fact Goodenow even stated that he he would not negotiate on the frame (the NHLPA's) put forward and demanded a new framework to work with. The NHLPA rejected their own framework and demanded a new one, hence they rejected their own December 9th offer, outright. Them's the breaks. Live with it.

Well said.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Not a lot of room to move doesn't imply any hope at all. This is what needed to be done:

Get rid of all the triggers except the 55%, and give it at least two years. Or at least make all teams spend the minimum $30 million before the triggers apply.

See, now there's something I could live with, although the $30 million would have to be adjusted to align with a percentage of revenues as well (43%). The triggers can be tweaked, but I like the fact that you do tie them into to the success of the triggers on both ends.

 

[Chayos]

This goes to show you the NHLPA's supposed answer to this mess does not work. You know how we know this. They rejected it today. They rejected their own offer becasue they knew it would not put a drag on salaries.
QUOTE]



THEY DID NOT REJECT THEIR OWN OFFER. Get that through your heads. It will put a drag on salaries. It wouldn't automatically and instantly get every team spending between $30 million and $40 million, therefore it would be the owner's Feb 2 proposal by next week.

Before anyone else says the union rejected their own offer, please, take the time to actually read the four triggers, think about it, think some more, and then post something useful.

No tehy rejected teh owners proposal rather than negotiating teh trigger points or come up with a counter proposal which goes to show they have no interest in help the game to become healthy. It also show they didn't think their proposal would put a drag on salaries.

 

[Chayos]

I'll tell you all whats hypocrisy: people who support the owners and thought this was a legitimate proposal. Now we all get to see who on this board has a blind agenda and who actually supports the owners with reason.


I can say there are a few people in this thread alone who have no idea who they support they just know they hate the players.

I hear the Slam boards are good for ranting and raving about mindless jabber.


The NHLPA did not reject their own offer. Whoever doesn't get this through their heads should keep all of their thoughts in the rant thread because they have no sembelance of meaning and would in essence be just mindless jabber, and God knows we have enough of that on this board.


Fact. Not opinion. This is a true statement.

What they rejected is the ownerssolution to the problems with hockey salries if their own solution didn't work. By not being willing to back up their offer with a consequence if their system didn't work then they showed that they knew from the start that their system was flawed and would not work as they guarenteed it would.

 

[Chayos]

maybe you missed the part where the PA has said they will not accept a cap ?

this means, that they will not accept triggers (negotiated or not) that could lead to a cap. they are excersizing their human right to not work in an enviroment they are opposed to. unlike most people, they have the leverage to hold out their services until the NHL capitulates.

dr

Absolutly right! The players have a RIGHT to withhold tehir services as has been proven again again and again in teh last 10 years. In fact those holdouts have lead to a good percentage of teh problems we face today.

Now that teh owners have chosen to withhold their millions of dollars from teh players which is their RIGHT they are suddenly the bad guy. The owner can in turn continue to withhold their money and it will save them $200 million dollars in losses per year until they get teh deal tehy want, wheras the players will continue to lose 900 million dollars a year till they realize they will not win this battle.

Just look at the economics of it.

If teh owners lock out the players they Get to keep $200 million per year. If tehy don't tehy Lose $200 million or more if they players continue to get their way and in some cases they loee upwards of $400-500 million as Franchises worth $70-120 million start to go broke.

Its a simple answer for them. The PA cronies on this board will bring up teh rich owners and how they will step in Blah blah blah, but remember those same owners will make even more money under the new system than tehy are now even if th3ey have to give some to other owners in teh way of revenue sharing. To them its not a question mark at all as tehy either give money to the player in the way tehy have been( see payrolls for teams like DET, TOR, NYR, Dall, COL and PHIL) or give that money to other owners and come up with a more competive league.

I am sure these owner would accept a deal without linkage, but teh reality is the league is a consortium of 30 owners and the right of the few rich teams should not out weight the rights of the many teams that are struggling. If a team like teh LA king living in the 2nd largest market in a new building can open up tehir books to a fan who is an accountant and show the losses that are occuring then i am sure most teams can as well.

The truth is the GRAVY TRAIN is over and the players just won't accept it, or maybe more to teh core of it the NHLPA executive won't.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I'll tell you all whats hypocrisy: people who support the owners and thought this was a legitimate proposal. Now we all get to see who on this board has a blind agenda and who actually supports the owners with reason.


I can say there are a few people in this thread alone who have no idea who they support they just know they hate the players.

I hear the Slam boards are good for ranting and raving about mindless jabber.


The NHLPA did not reject their own offer. Whoever doesn't get this through their heads should keep all of their thoughts in the rant thread because they have no sembelance of meaning and would in essence be just mindless jabber, and God knows we have enough of that on this board.


Fact. Not opinion. This is a true statement.

What the NHL did was expose that Dec. 9 offer for what it was, a sham. By the NHLPA refusing to add any caps to it shows that they fully expected to start the salary spiral all over again.