OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: World Cup N'at

[NewAgeOutlaw]

For every Doug Peterson there are 10 Krennels, Gilbrides, Petrino, Morningwigs or Weisses at least.

Its the same reason you never see NFL teams get rid of QBs until the next one is there or they have no other choice (they're that bad).

Firing Tomlin if you have a guy that you really think can make a difference...sure.
Firing him for the sake of firing him and risking setting your org on fire...um.

It would not be firing Tomlin for the sake of firing him. It would be firing him for consistently underachieving and letting the locker room become controlled by egos, including his own.

The next guy doesn't have to be here. If the Steelers can't pick a good coach out of hundreds of potential candidates than they have big problems that go even higher up than Tomlin.

 

[Shaftception]

It's true there are far more failed head coaches than successful ones. Though this particular scenario I'd argue is contradictory logic, or atleast circular.

The Steelers can't fire Tomlin unless they "have a guy you really think can make a difference", but they've shown no indication of being willing to explore finding said candidate because they already have one in their opinion.

So what's the criteria for a difference making head coach for this team then? When does Tomlin fail to meet that criteria? Another year without a championship? Two? Three? After Ben retires? Another decade like the 80s teams? One has to exist no?

They've had three coaches since the 70s, and using that logic their coaching hiring process has either successfully chosen sufficient difference makers each of the past three times, or there's some aspect of how the owners structure and run the team separate from the coaching that keeps them consistently successful. If it's the former, their track record indicates they'd successfully find the next difference maker, or at least leave more than sufficient doubt they'd "risk setting their organization on fire". If it's the later, the resume of the head coach or his potential replacement is irrelevant.

Either way, using that logic there's little risk in at the very least exploring other potential options, yet because of Tomlin's resume (which again he himself did not have upon his hiring) they refuse to do so. So is the head coaching position of the Steelers really a retirement gig? A blank check in a sense?

Maybe they win next year and this discussion is proven moot, but my question is from now until his theoretical retirement, does a criteria exist for this team's head coaching position that he can fail to meet?

If so, what is it?

If not, what purpose does his resume they defend him with actually serve?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

It would not be firing Tomlin for the sake of firing him. It would be firing him for consistently underachieving and letting the locker room become controlled by egos, including his own.

The next guy doesn't have to be here. If the Steelers can't pick a good coach out of hundreds of potential candidates than they have big problems that go even higher up than Tomlin.

Actually it would. Becuase one of the main reasons they the high standard that their "underachieving" is because of the talent that Tomlin helped bring in.

If being the second best AFC team over the last decade is underachieving, then i think any team will take it and run.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Actually it would. Becuase one of the main reasons they the high standard that their "underachieving" is because of the talent that Tomlin helped bring in.

If being the second best AFC team over the last decade is underachieving, then i think any team will take it and run.

2nd best and it is not even close despite the Steelers usually having more talent than the Patriots. It is underachieving. Mike McCarthy has the exact same resume with the Packers and he is widely considered to be a terrible coach. What makes Tomlin any different?

It says a lot that your only argument is giving Tomlin credit for the gm's work.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

It's true there are far more failed head coaches than successful ones. Though this particular scenario I'd argue is contradictory logic, or atleast circular.

The Steelers can't fire Tomlin unless they "have a guy you really think can make a difference", but they've shown no indication of being willing to explore finding said candidate because they already have one in their opinion.

So what's the criteria for a difference making head coach for this team then? When does Tomlin fail to meet that criteria? Another year without a championship? Two? Three? After Ben retires? Another decade like the 80s teams? One has to exist no?

They've had three coaches since the 70s, and using that logic their coaching hiring process has either successfully chosen sufficient difference makers each of the past three times, or there's some aspect of how the owners structure and run the team separate from the coaching that keeps them consistently successful. If it's the former, their track record indicates they'd successfully find the next difference maker, or at least leave more than sufficient doubt they'd "risk setting their organization on fire". If it's the later, the resume of the head coach or his potential replacement is irrelevant.

Either way, using that logic there's little risk in at the very least exploring other potential options, yet because of Tomlin's resume (which again he himself did not have upon his hiring) they refuse to do so. So is the head coaching position of the Steelers really a retirement gig? A blank check in a sense?

Maybe they win next year and this discussion is proven moot, but my question is from now until his theoretical retirement, does a criteria exist for this team's head coaching position that he can fail to meet?

If so, what is it?

If not, what purpose does his resume they defend him with actually serve?

Sure one exists but winning the division and being a bad call from the #1 seed isnt that time.

If and when this team falls into consistent mediocrity is probably that time and the likeliest time for that to happen is the transition from Roethlisberger to the next guy. Unless that is it doesnt happen, in which case Tomlin will have proven again he deserves the job.

Winning the Superbowl is hard. Its not a 7 game series where the better team usually wins. Its one random play or two form being all over. Just as the Patriots (the most impressive dynasty in NFL history)...

2002 - Tuck Rule play
2007 - Tyree (best team ive ever seen in person BTW lost)
2015 - One bad play call for Seattle
2017 - One bad play call for Atlanta
2018 - Eagles got some calls.

Literally a handful of play calls/official rulings are the difference between a team that could have had 7 SBs in 17 year or could only have 1 or 2.

Sometimes not winning doesnt need a reason other than... thats football.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

2nd best and it is not even close despite the Steelers usually having more talent than the Patriots. It is underachieving. Mike McCarthy has the exact same resume with the Packers and he is widely considered to be a terrible coach. What makes Tomlin any different?

It says a lot that your only argument is giving Tomlin credit for the gm's work.

Because...

1. Tomlin has ALOT of input on who they bring in and it isnt debatable.
2. McCarthy has the greatest QB of all time. I cant tell you exactly what kind of coach he is or what role he plays in bringing in talent, but even his one SB was handed to him by Rashard Mendenhall.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Because...

1. Tomlin has ALOT of input on who they bring in and it isnt debatable.
2. McCarthy has the greatest QB of all time. I cant tell you exactly what kind of coach he is or what role he plays in bringing in talent, but even his one SB was handed to him by Rashard Mendenhall.

You are trying to tell me that Mike McCarthy is different than Mike Tomlin because McCarthy is just leeching off of a hof qb? News flash: Tomlin has been leeching off of Big Ben. Hell, Tomlin's only sb happened because Tom Brady tore his acl.

You give Tomlin all of the credit for offensive talent on the team but he gets none of the blame for putting together defenses that got lit up by Blake Bortles and Tim Tebow in the playoffs.

 

[Shockmaster]

Yuck.... I don't agree with anything he said...............

7-8 wins next year is my very early prediction, based on organizational failure.

I think doing worse than 10-6 would be hard for this team simply because the rest of the division is worse off than the Steelers and none of them made any major changes.

I didn't expect Art to walk into the press conference and go "LOL k u guyz r right Tomlin sux he's fired LOLOLOLOL," but for him to basically say "everything is fine nothing needs to change with the culture" shows he really doesn't understand -why- the business model Dan Rooney created in the late 60's worked. Noll wasn't the coach for as long as he was just because Dan said "okay I'm hiring a coach and he's staying put no matter what." He created a no nonsense culture and kept the players focused.

If Art was younger maybe I could see how he doesn't understand this. But he's 65, and still seems like that kid who had to take over the business after his legendary father passed away and has no clue what he's doing.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

You are trying to tell me that Mike McCarthy is different than Mike Tomlin because McCarthy is just leeching off of a hof qb? News flash: Tomlin has been leeching off of Big Ben. Hell, Tomlin's only sb happened because Tom Brady tore his acl.

You give Tomlin all of the credit for offensive talent on the team but he gets none of the blame for putting together defenses that got lit up by Blake Bortles and Tim Tebow in the playoffs.

So which is it?

You call them one of the most talented team in football then rip their talent.

Its really simple. ..

Like i said i cant sit here and tell you what McCarthy is/isnt responsible for. But one thing is certain. Rodgers>>>Roethlisberger. Its not even close. Rodgers is the best QB to ever play in the NFL. Period.

Tomlin is a big part of why this team is so d*mn talented to begin with. Your entire argument is that he doesnt coach up to his talent but he is a big reason its there in the first place.

 

[KIRK]

So which is it?

You call them one of the most talented team in football then rip their talent.

Its really simple. ..

Like i said i cant sit here and tell you what McCarthy is/isnt responsible for. But one thing is certain. Rodgers>>>Roethlisberger. Its not even close. Rodgers is the best QB to ever play in the NFL. Period.

Tomlin is a big part of why this team is so d*mn talented to begin with. Your entire argument is that he doesnt coach up to his talent but he is a big reason its there in the first place.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Oh come on now. Put Rodgers in Bradys spot and they have just as many rings, ditto in San Fran in the 80s.

I cant think of anyone other than maybe Marino that has been let down by their organization more than Rodgers.

 

[KIRK]

Oh come on now. Put Rodgers in Bradys spot and they have just as many rings, ditto in San Fran in the 80s.

I cant think of anyone other than maybe Marino that has been let down by their organization more than Rodgers.

Bless your heart.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Bless your heart.

Ok, good argument.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

So which is it?

You call them one of the most talented team in football then rip their talent.

Its really simple. ..

Like i said i cant sit here and tell you what McCarthy is/isnt responsible for. But one thing is certain. Rodgers>>>Roethlisberger. Its not even close. Rodgers is the best QB to ever play in the NFL. Period.

Tomlin is a big part of why this team is so d*mn talented to begin with. Your entire argument is that he doesnt coach up to his talent but he is a big reason its there in the first place.

Tomlin's area of expertise is defense. Please name me the defensive talent he has developed in his tenure. I'll wait.

And you just don't get that Tomlin can bring in all of the talent in the world and it does not matter one bit if the man can not get his team focused for a playoff game. It has happened over and over again. How many more times do you have to see the same thing before you get that Tomlin is the root of the problem?

The man is incapable of beating the other top team in the AFC. That is a fatal flaw if I've ever seen one.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Tomlin's area of expertise is defense. Please name me the defensive talent he has developed in his tenure. I'll wait.

And you just don't get that Tomlin can bring in all of the talent in the world and it does not matter one bit if the man can not get his team focused for a playoff game. It has happened over and over again. How many more times do you have to see the same thing before you get that Tomlin is the root of the problem?

The man is incapable of beating the other top team in the AFC. That is a fatal flaw if I've ever seen one.

1. Um our whole D-line, Watt looks like a keeper, Timmons, Woodley was pretty good for a while. Gay was a 5th rounder, Worilds was looking good before he retired, Williams is solid, Shazier is great, Burns aint half bad. But hey lets also just ignore the whole other side of the ball because it fits our agenda.

2. Apparently there is only one good coach in NFL history because NOBODY has ever been as good as Belichick has the last 15 years or so. If that's the measurement then everyone fails.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

1. Um our whole D-line, Watt looks like a keeper, Timmons, Woodley was pretty good for a while. Gay was a 5th rounder, Worilds was looking good before he retired, Williams is solid, Shazier is great, Burns aint half bad. But hey lets also just ignore the whole other side of the ball because it fits our agenda.

2. Apparently there is only one good coach in NFL history because NOBODY has ever been as good as Belichick has the last 15 years or so. If that's the measurement then everyone fails.

1. How did that defensive line do against the run all year? After Watt you go listing guys who haven't been on the team in a few years. Then you say William Gay as if that is a feather in Tomlin's cap.

2. I never said Tomlin has to be as good as Bellicheck. I said he is incapable of beating Bellicheck and you are dodging that point once again. It's a loser's mentality. The Patriots are the best so we should just settle for #2.

Keep acting like Bellicheck can't be beat. Bellicheck can be beat, just not when Mike Tomlin is standing on the other sideline.

Did you ever consider that Bellicheck has been able to be as successful as he has because for years his only competition in the AFC has been headed by a cliche-spewing moron who can't contemplate clock managment concepts that 10 year old football fans everywhere have mastered? Do you think the Steelers are being held back by a man who has an irrational fear of qb sneaks?

 

[TNT87]

How does Jimmy G, who only started 7 career games in his career, become the highest paid player per year?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

1. How did that defensive line do against the run all year? After Watt you go listing guys who haven't been on the team in a few years. Then you say William Gay as if that is a feather in Tomlin's cap.

2. I never said Tomlin has to be as good as Bellicheck. I said he is incapable of beating Bellicheck and you are dodging that point once again. It's a loser's mentality. The Patriots are the best so we should just settle for #2.

Keep acting like Bellicheck can't be beat. Bellicheck can be beat, just not when Mike Tomlin is standing on the other sideline.

Did you ever consider that Bellicheck has been able to be as successful as he has because for years his only competition in the AFC has been headed by a cliche-spewing moron who can't contemplate clock managment concepts that 10 year old football fans everywhere have mastered? Do you think the Steelers are being held back by a man who has an irrational fear of qb sneaks?

1. Cherry picking, one team stat to talk about the D-line. Good job.

2. It has nothing to do with "losers mentality" it has everything to do with this ridiculous standard your want to set. Under Mike Tomlin the Steelers have the second most win in the NFL, have 2 AFC championships and a Super Bowl.

I highly doubt any other available coach has a better resume over that span. Could a different coach get more success with the same players? Possibly. But would that coach likely have the same player/talent level if they were there instead? Doubtful.

Make it real simple. Without bringing or comparing to NE, you know the best dynasty and best QB/Coach combo in league history, show me who would be better and why?

There gotta be somebody isnt an acceptable answer.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

1. Cherry picking, one team stat to talk about the D-line. Good job.

2. It has nothing to do with "losers mentality" it has everything to do with this ridiculous standard your want to set. Under Mike Tomlin the Steelers have the second most win in the NFL, have 2 AFC championships and a Super Bowl.

I highly doubt any other available coach has a better resume over that span. Could a different coach get more success with the same players? Possibly. But would that coach likely have the same player/talent level if they were there instead? Doubtful.

Make it real simple. Without bringing or comparing to NE, you know the best dynasty and best QB/Coach combo in league history, show me who would be better and why?

There gotta be somebody isnt an acceptable answer.

Your whole argument is that it is an unreasonable standard to expect a football team with hof level talents at qb, rb, and wr to be the best team in their conference more often than never.

Again, you are acting like Bill Bellicheck can't be beat and it is total and utter nonsense. The Eagles beat him with Nick Foles. The Giants beat him twice. The Ravens beat them in the playoffs with Joe Flacco.

Mike Tomlin used to be a d-coordinator and it took him until 2017 to stop running a zone scheme against Tom Brady. That really says it all.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Your whole argument is that it is an unreasonable standard to expect a football team with hof level talents at qb, rb, and wr to be the best team in their conference more often than never.

Again, you are acting like Bill Bellicheck can't be beat and it is total and utter nonsense. The Eagles beat him with Nick Foles. The Giants beat him twice. The Ravens beat them in the playoffs with Joe Flacco.

Mike Tomlin used to be a d-coordinator and it took him until 2017 to stop running a zone scheme against Tom Brady. That really says it all.

Ugh thats not my argument at all and last i checeked weve been the the Superbowl 2 twice in Tomlins tenure. So consider the strawman slain and the facts corrected.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Ugh thats not my argument at all and last i checeked weve been the the Superbowl 2 twice in Tomlins tenure. So consider the strawman slain and the facts corrected.

And they didn't have to beat the Pats either time. It should be abundantly clear to anybody that having to depend on the Pats not making the AFC title to win a superbowl is a shitty strategy.

Oh yeah, add Rex Ryan and Mark Sanchez to the list of totally average coaches and qb's that have had more success against the Patriots than the Steelers under Tomlin.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Your whole argument is that it is an unreasonable standard to expect a football team with hof level talents at qb, rb, and wr to be the best team in their conference more often than never.

Again, you are acting like Bill Bellicheck can't be beat and it is total and utter nonsense. The Eagles beat him with Nick Foles. The Giants beat him twice. The Ravens beat them in the playoffs with Joe Flacco.

Mike Tomlin used to be a d-coordinator and it took him until 2017 to stop running a zone scheme against Tom Brady. That really says it all.

And they didn't have to beat the Pats either time. It should be abundantly clear to anybody that having to depend on the Pats not making the AFC title to win a superbowl is a ****ty strategy.

Oh yeah, add Rex Ryan and Mark Sanchez to the list of totally average coaches and qb's that have had more success against the Patriots than the Steelers under Tomlin.

Great point and yes the Pats can be beaten
It's sad that it always comes down to conspiracy though
People are brainwashed

 

[Coastal Kev]

One Super Bowl is so cute... They just joined the likes of the Saints and Colts....lol

Philly, where the men are men and so are the women.

 

[cookthebooks]

dunno how good a db coach bradley is but they are going to roasted for this. hope art2 is ready

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

Crosby, living rent free in Flyer fans feebile minds since 2005.

At least she isn't eating horse **** though...