Speculation: The Official Tank Thread

[SoupNazi]

Tanking vs. "Rebuild on the Fly."

Discuss it here.

Keep it out of other threads.

Click to read more...

 

[Ennui]

How 'bout neither? Fans don't want to see their team mail in shoddy performances and/or clear out the roster for the sake of drafting as high as possible, just as they shouldn't want to see a team built to prolong mediocrity. Why not let nature take its course and accept a bad year or two, draft at whatever position that places us, and make whatever sensible roster moves we can to address the glaring holes in our team's structure?

 

[Red Stanley]

I hate the word tank. It's what Mtl did last season. I know some of their fans embraced it, but goddamn that was some of the most embarrassing **** I've seen from a respectable hockey franchise. Sometimes I wish they'd relegate the last place team to the minors and bring the top minors team up, like they do in some sports, instead of rewarding abject failure with high picks.

 

[FlashyG]

I didn't get to reply in the last thread so I'll just leave my opinion here.

One of the things I've always been proudest of the Wings for is their ability to remain competitive without intentionally losing for the benefit of a better draft slot.

To me that is part of the core philosophy of the team, and should be a given in all of professional sports. Losing should not be sought after or rewarded.

The day the Wings intentionally lose games for the sake of draft position is the day they are no longer the team I fell in love with as a child.

I fully agree with the tank crowd that under no circumstances should we be looking to add to the team in order to continue the streak. However, I do think they should do everything in their power with the current team to try and continue it.

Ideally I'd like to see Mantha, Larkin, AA and some of the kids on defence step up and become the future leaders and stars we'll need to return us to cup contention. Having them turn this season around would go a long way in their growth.

 

[Claypool]

They aren't tanking. There's nothing to discuss.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

How about:

1. Tanking

vs.

2. Ken Holland's version of rebuilding-on-the fly.

vs.

3. Actually trying to rebuild-on-the-fly?

I have a feeling that my modest proposed moves would probably fall under number three.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

My favorite statement from holland is him saying if you make the playoffs you are in the top of the the league

Completely inaccurate. A west team could miss the playoffs but be better then you

 

[burrythebiscuit*]

You just opened a can of worms.

 

[jkutswings]

I hate the word tank. It's what Mtl did last season. I know some of their fans embraced it, but goddamn that was some of the most embarrassing **** I've seen from a respectable hockey franchise. Sometimes I wish they'd relegate the last place team to the minors and bring the top minors team up, like they do in some sports, instead of rewarding abject failure with high picks.

I'd argue that icing the current roster as a cap team is pretty darn embarrassing.

Lots of people want to shout 'parity' from the rooftops. Isn't the ultimate equalizer in terms of competitive rebalancing, the fact that the teams that finish worst get the best chance at acquiring the best new players?

If you don't want the Wings to intentionally lose games, I get it, but this franchise has zero chance at ever winning another championship without acquiring multiple high-end players, at positions that are VERY difficult to acquire.

 

[Red Stanley]

I'd argue that icing the current roster as a cap team is pretty darn embarrassing.

Lots of people want to shout 'parity' from the rooftops. Isn't the ultimate equalizer in terms of competitive rebalancing, the fact that the teams that finish worst get the best chance at acquiring the best new players?

If you don't want the Wings to intentionally lose games, I get it, but this franchise has zero chance at ever winning another championship without acquiring multiple high-end players, at positions that are VERY difficult to acquire.

I just don't want to see a team that's obviously built to intentionally lose and actually intentionally losing. You always have an out by playing mostly youth and testing your development system. That being said, this team isn't well-built, but wasn't built for finishing near the bottom, so I'm not OK with them being where they are. I'd be pretty pissed if they pulled a joke move like Mtl last year, too.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

I'd argue that icing the current roster as a cap team is pretty darn embarrassing.

Lots of people want to shout 'parity' from the rooftops. Isn't the ultimate equalizer in terms of competitive rebalancing, the fact that the teams that finish worst get the best chance at acquiring the best new players?

If you don't want the Wings to intentionally lose games, I get it, but this franchise has zero chance at ever winning another championship without acquiring multiple high-end players, at positions that are VERY difficult to acquire.

Quoted for truth.

Keep down the same path, and this team isn't doing anything.

 

[Retire91]

No need to tank. How about stop signing veteran mediocrity. Stop signing replaceable players to bad contracts. Stop trading picks for rentals. Stop building the team to only make the playoffs but do nothing once there. Start promoting youth regularly.

 

[Flowah]

What does tanking even mean to you guys?

Because from where I stand, tanking and rebuilding are achieved the same way. You sell players for draft picks so you can increase your odds at the draft of picking up elite players to rebuild around. They look exactly the same. You guys keep saying it's embarrassing but it's really not. That's just how it's done.

You know what's actually embarrassing? Treading water and going nowhere for a decade. Ask the Flames how that felt.

What's more embarrassing?

1. The 350 pound guy at the gym sweating his ass off while walking at 3mph and eats a small salad with no dressing for lunch?
2. Or the guy on the couch who says "I'm gonna lose it. By eating 1 less chip a day. Maybe one day they'll make a miracle drug that will allow me to do nothing and still lose weight! It's not impossible! Not everyone who works out is thin! It's no guarantee!"

Sure. The fat guy looks a little ridiculous at first. He's probably embarrassed to be seen at the gym. But that's what it takes.

 

[RedWingzz]

Realistically, I don't think the difference between picking 7th and 15th this year is that drastic. 2 weeks ago I wanted us to full on tank, but after doing more research on the draft prospects, I honestly don't think picking in the 6-9 range is going to get you a player significantly better than if we pick in the 15-17 range.

We need D prospects, and after Liljegren (who is kinda plummeting in some draft rankings himself) there doesn't really seem to be any Defenceman that are in the conversation as a top 10 pick. So realistically if we miss the playoffs and finish 7th last, I don't see us getting a player there that is significantly better than if we manage to squeak into the playoff and pick 15th.

This "mini" winning streak has somewhat changed my mind, and I say might as well go for it. Chances are we still miss the playoffs, but our division is so terrible, that we aren't that far out at all. A couple more wins and this could get interesting.

I think the next 2 weeks are huge. If we play well, and keep afloat, then might as well push for a playoff spot. Although we are also a 3 or 4 game losing streak from me thinking we should be on full on tank mode.

 

[Flowah]

Realistically, I don't think the difference between picking 7th and 15th this year is that drastic. 2 weeks ago I wanted us to full on tank, but after doing more research on the draft prospects, I honestly don't think picking in the 6-9 range is going to get you a player significantly better than if we pick in the 15-17 range.

Do you think it's likely we get the 7th pick when we're this far down? The whole point of tanking is to get even lower and get a higher pick.

 

[Claypool]

You know what's actually embarrassing? Treading water and going nowhere for a decade. Ask the Flames how that felt.

The Flames had players like Jarome Iginla, Miikka Kiprusoff, Dion Phanuef, Mark Giordano, Jay Bouwmeester, and Robyn Regehr all in their prime during those years. It would be insane to blow that team up just because they didn't have deep playoff success after their Cup run. Their problem is they just weren't good enough to beat teams like Detroit, Anaheim, San Jose, and Vancouver in that era. It happens.

 

[Frk It]

One of the things I've always been proudest of the Wings for is their ability to remain competitive without intentionally losing for the benefit of a better draft slot.

I don't think it's ever really made sense to until now. We would have had to move Datsyuk and Zetterberg to tear it down before now, and Datsyuk was here until last year. That was a move that fans rightfully would have been pissed at (myself included) and a loyal guy like Holland wouldn't do that to his two star players. Z is giving 110% and is still our best player, but dude has not been able to play a productive 82 games in probably a few years. His play always dips at some point.

So now it's a whole different ball game. We don't have an elite player on this team. When's the last time that could be said about a Red Wings team. Yzerman's rookie year?

We don't have the successors to keep this thing going. We need to find them. They are not on this team. So it's a matter of -- what's the best way to do that? I think we know the answer, we just don't like the answer. We want to believe we can beat the odds. It's amazing that we did what we did with Datsyuk and Zetterberg to gap two completely different cores like we did. To expect to do that again with how far scouting has come is just.... I mean it's a hail mary and a half.

 

[Flowah]

We don't have the successors to keep this thing going. We need to find them. They are not on this team. So it's a matter of -- what's the best way to do that? I think we know the answer, we just don't like the answer. We want to believe we can beat the odds. It's amazing that we did what we did with Datsyuk and Zetterberg to gap two completely different cores like we did. To expect to do that again with how far scouting has come is just.... I mean it's a hail mary and a half.

That's the key.

Maybe if a single one of our guys, like XO, Jensen, Sproul, Larkin had shown us something where we thought they might turn into a #1 we could have a different conversation.

No one has done that. The likelihood of it happening is slim to none. Time to think about something else.

 

[jkutswings]

Another point to consider:

Right now, there are likely fans out there of teams like Dallas and Winnipeg and the Islanders that feel very confident that if they could just get a little more out of a couple of players, or catch a few lucky breaks, that their team would be right in the hunt, and very "competitive".

Shoot, there are probably Coyotes and Avs fans out there that think their team has had a run of bad luck, and will be right there in the mix next year.

Fans cheer for their team, and sometimes it's to the point of not wanting to see failure so badly that they refuse to acknowledge it, even once it arrives. That doesn't make them bad fans or any other derogatory term, but it does mean that sometimes a team needs to reboot more drastically than the court of public opinion wants to believe.

 

[KJoe88]

They aren't tanking. There's nothing to discuss.

And nor should we. It's an incredibly bad draft. Stick it out. The team is vastly underachieving. Having another playoff run will invaluable experience for Larkin, Mantha, AA, etc.

With that said, I will hate tanking on purpose for a draft pick. It's weak and sends a bad message to the team and believe it or not to certain fans. The Red Wings are a proud franchise and players realize this despite whether or not we're cup contenders or a bubble team.

As a proud Wings fan, I'd rather the team try and make it and do their best than to lower our standards to pathetic ways in HOPES of being a glorious team once again. Anything can happen in the playoffs - a completely true sentiment.

I want the team to also break that streak record. It may not mean much to the pessimists, but for some fans it means longevity and pride. There's a lot of history involved in the streak.

I understand people wanting a cup, and trust me, I'd love nothing more (well, almost) than to see the boys hoist the cup. There's something special watching the boys do it, but the streak is impressive. And the players cherish it - I expect a fight for the remainder of the season.

I like the approach to a retool. It's just that I think Holland has done it in a NOT clear way. He's done things to indicate stagnant plans and done things portraying aggressive plans.

 

[lilidk]

just look at AVS . They been down forever . I d say keep the base , don't overpay

 

[Flowah]

With that said, I will hate tanking on purpose for a draft pick. It's weak and sends a bad message to the team and believe it or not to certain fans. The Red Wings are a proud franchise and players realize this despite whether or not we're cup contenders or a bubble team.

What message does it send to the team and the fans when we continue to be a bubble team or worse for another 10 years with no end in sight?

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I didn't get to reply in the last thread so I'll just leave my opinion here.

One of the things I've always been proudest of the Wings for is their ability to remain competitive without intentionally losing for the benefit of a better draft slot.

To me that is part of the core philosophy of the team, and should be a given in all of professional sports. Losing should not be sought after or rewarded.

The day the Wings intentionally lose games for the sake of draft position is the day they are no longer the team I fell in love with as a child.

I fully agree with the tank crowd that under no circumstances should we be looking to add to the team in order to continue the streak. However, I do think they should do everything in their power with the current team to try and continue it.

Ideally I'd like to see Mantha, Larkin, AA and some of the kids on defence step up and become the future leaders and stars we'll need to return us to cup contention. Having them turn this season around would go a long way in their growth.

We literally got to where we are because one day we took Steve Yzerman with what today would be a lottery pick after two decades of terrible hockey. The inciting incident of three decades of good hockey.

For this team to not tank, they'd need to draft better than they have, and their 2000's drafting collectively has left a lot to be desired, and so we find ourselves here today. We haven't drafted a significant blue liner since Fischer or Kronwall. We need a new GM in the worst way, and until that happens, this team will continue it's path of stagnation and gradual irrelevance.

Honestly, the next five years are bleak as **** for us. Holland's cap management has left us with probably the worst cap situation in the entire league. We need a Hextall to clear out all of his predecessor's mistakes, which has taken Hextall like three years to do, before we can TRULY move forward. Certainly we can amass prospects to help move the team in the right direction again like Philadelphia has, but the damage for the short term has already been done. The worst part is, we STILL don't know when Holland will leave. He's the most protected and made man in professional sports.

 

[Claypool]

I like the approach to a retool. It's just that I think Holland has done it in a NOT clear way. He's done things to indicate stagnant plans and done things portraying aggressive plans.

Holland has stated numerous times the way to compete in today's NHL is through drafting and development. That's the plan. It's the only way. He's also not going to ice a roster full of kids. He wants veteran players around to help. I don't see why this is so hard to understand for some people.

 

[Flowah]

Holland has stated numerous times the way to compete in today's NHL is through drafting and development. That's the plan. It's the only way. He's also not going to ice a roster full of kids. He wants veteran players around to help. I don't see why this is so hard to understand for some people.

If this is his way of competing then he's either doing it wrong or he's got a bad plan.

The results speak for themselves.

I don't see why this is so hard for some people to understand.