The Official Tank Thread III

[jkutswings]

Yes, he should go out and say "we'll be tanking the next 5 seasons for picks. Come see us suck at the new arena!"

Take a look at what Babcock and Shanahan said when they first signed on with Toronto:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leaf...rst-news-conference-as-maple-leafs-coach.html

https://www.thestar.com/sports/brea...nahan-on-the-shana-plan-in-his-own-words.html

Building a Stanley Cup winning team

“I didn’t come here to (just) make the playoffs.”


Pain is coming

Babcock said one of the attractions of Toronto was the “long-term commitment” to the rebuilding process and the understanding of how hard it’s going to be to build a Stanley Cup winning franchise. There are no quick fixes.

“It usually takes twice as long and twice as hard as you think. I believe that,” Babcock said.


SHANAHAN'S OPENING STATEMENT

"During this difficult season, I recognized that there were going to be changes. When I was interviewed for this job by Tim Leiweke about a year ago, the one thing I said to him was the only real reason to come here and do this is if we're committed to building a team that is capable of winning a Stanley Cup."


WILL THE LEAFS SPEND TO THE CAP AND HOW LONG WILL THE REBUILD TAKE?

"I can’t predict where we will be with the cap in a few years. Of course it’s an important draft. They all are important and that’s one of the reasons we went out to get a guy like Mark Hunter.

"People come up with answers and come up with years and I sometimes wonder if they give a number of years simply to buy themselves some time. I don’t know if that’s the case. The truth of the matter is - it takes as long as it takes. Whether people have the patience for that or not, in my opinion you don’t deviate from the vision."




Overall, you have both a coach and a GM that are very clear about two things:
* Stanley Cups are priority #1 with a bullet.
* It's entirely possible that reaching this goal will be a long and ugly process...and if that's what it takes, so be it.

Now put that in contrast to things like:
* "Less is more exciting."
* "If you're expecting Cups, you're in the wrong business."
* (paraphrasing) Rebuilds take too long. I just wanna make the playoffs again.

 

[Red Stanley]

There is absolutely no objective way to measure this. It's all just your subjective opinion.

In fact by your "standard," if it can so be called, any team in the league can have a winning culture. Hell even the Avalanche could have one, as long as they have a high compete level. They may not have the talent but they can try their hardest! You just sound like the scouts from before Sabremetrics, going off gut feelings, thinking you have some kind of magical intuition about what compete level is and what "winning culture" is.


Then you may want to try and define it in such a way where it isn't vague and useless. So far you have failed to do so.

Winning culture is harnessing competitiveness toward a clear goal and eventually succeeding. If you keep trying hard, yet failing, the whole eventually breaks down and you have to start all over again. Had the Avs built on that division title from a few years ago, they'd have a winning culture. Instead they folded and tanked. Again. Sometimes teams will fail hard for so long they'll end up loaded with young talent and be carried up by youthful exuberance to go with the talent. That doesn't mean they have winning culture. For all we know, the Leafs and Oilers will make the POs a couple of times, lose in the first round, then start missing again.

 

[Red Stanley]

What does their being bad 10 years ago have to do with today? They have new management teams that have implemented a strategy and found success. That's the thing about a bottom-feeder, you're pretty much always starting from square one. The Wings need to go back to square one for a few years.

You tell me. You're the one who brought that up.

 

[Red Stanley]

Take a look at what Babcock and Shanahan said when they first signed on with Toronto:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leaf...rst-news-conference-as-maple-leafs-coach.html

https://www.thestar.com/sports/brea...nahan-on-the-shana-plan-in-his-own-words.html

Building a Stanley Cup winning team

“I didn’t come here to (just) make the playoffs.â€


Pain is coming

Babcock said one of the attractions of Toronto was the “long-term commitment†to the rebuilding process and the understanding of how hard it’s going to be to build a Stanley Cup winning franchise. There are no quick fixes.

“It usually takes twice as long and twice as hard as you think. I believe that,†Babcock said.


SHANAHAN'S OPENING STATEMENT

"During this difficult season, I recognized that there were going to be changes. When I was interviewed for this job by Tim Leiweke about a year ago, the one thing I said to him was the only real reason to come here and do this is if we're committed to building a team that is capable of winning a Stanley Cup."


WILL THE LEAFS SPEND TO THE CAP AND HOW LONG WILL THE REBUILD TAKE?

"I can’t predict where we will be with the cap in a few years. Of course it’s an important draft. They all are important and that’s one of the reasons we went out to get a guy like Mark Hunter.

"People come up with answers and come up with years and I sometimes wonder if they give a number of years simply to buy themselves some time. I don’t know if that’s the case. The truth of the matter is - it takes as long as it takes. Whether people have the patience for that or not, in my opinion you don’t deviate from the vision."




Overall, you have both a coach and a GM that are very clear about two things:
* Stanley Cups are priority #1 with a bullet.
* It's entirely possible that reaching this goal will be a long and ugly process...and if that's what it takes, so be it.

Now put that in contrast to things like:
* "Less is more exciting."
* "If you're expecting Cups, you're in the wrong business."
* (paraphrasing) Rebuilds take too long. I just wanna make the playoffs again.

Holland has never missed the playoffs before, so we really have no frame of reference for what he'll do. All we have is PR talk framed by the realities of moving to a new arena with a team at the end of a 25-year playoff streak. TML are a whole different animal. They'll continue making money no matter how bad their team is.

 

[jkutswings]

Holland has never missed the playoffs before, so we really have no frame of reference for what he'll do. All we have is PR talk framed by the realities of moving to a new arena with a team at the end of a 25-year playoff streak. TML are a whole different animal. They'll continue making money no matter how bad their team is.

You asked what the front office is supposed to say when the team is bad and needs to rebuild.

I provided quotes from a recently installed front office on a team that was bad and needed to rebuild.

You promptly dismissed it and said there was nothing in common.



Now what Detroit WILL do is entirely different, but what they SHOULD do is to say something along these lines:

'We as an organization are extremely proud of the many fantastic accomplishments we have been fortunate enough to witness during this historic run of success. We also would like to thank all the many talented and wonderful individuals that helped make that run possible. But now that the streak has ended, and we take an honest look at the state of the franchise, we realize that a shift in philosophy is in order. We have the greatest fans in hockey, and those fans deserve our best efforts to return to championship contention. Now we realize that there are no guarantees, and that rebuilding a roster can be a long and difficult process. But we fully intend to utilize the great hockey minds we have in this organization, and will consider the best available resources from within and outside the organization, in order to build for a future return to success, where The Detroit Red Wings are once again a flagship for playoff success in the National Hockey League.'

Note that none of the above imply or require scorched earth, intentionally losing games, or any of the other typical objections to rebuilding. It might work, it might fail, it might be somewhere in between, but it's high time to end the delusion that hoping to be an 8th seed is respectable to have as a recurring goal.

 

[TatarTangle]

Red Wings GM has no interest in painful rebuild

"Maybe nobody likes our players or contracts"

Hah

 

[TatarTangle]

Did not realize just making the playoffs - unless you're the Red Wings - makes you relevant. Not going to comment on the future, since my crystal ball ran out of batteries. I'm happy yours is still working. Could you tell me when we finally get to drive flying cars?

Having three rookies do something on the same team nobody else ever has in history makes you relevant.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You asked what the front office is supposed to say when the team is bad and needs to rebuild.

I provided quotes from a recently installed front office on a team that was bad and needed to rebuild.

You promptly dismissed it and said there was nothing in common.



Now what Detroit WILL do is entirely different, but what they SHOULD do is to say something along these lines:

'We as an organization are extremely proud of the many fantastic accomplishments we have been fortunate enough to witness during this historic run of success. We also would like to thank all the many talented and wonderful individuals that helped make that run possible. But now that the streak has ended, and we take an honest look at the state of the franchise, we realize that a shift in philosophy is in order. We have the greatest fans in hockey, and those fans deserve our best efforts to return to championship contention. Now we realize that there are no guarantees, and that rebuilding a roster can be a long and difficult process. But we fully intend to utilize the great hockey minds we have in this organization, and will consider the best available resources from within and outside the organization, in order to build for a future return to success, where The Detroit Red Wings are once again a flagship for playoff success in the National Hockey League.'

Note that none of the above imply or require scorched earth, intentionally losing games, or any of the other typical objections to rebuilding. It might work, it might fail, it might be somewhere in between, but it's high time to end the delusion that hoping to be an 8th seed is respectable to have as a recurring goal.

That is PR bull**** and Detroit would not care to hear it. There is probably 2% of the fanbase that cares to hear something like that. And if Holland said it, everyone who already hates him would zero in on it and say "WTF Holland" when he signs a 4th liner to a 4th liner's salary. Or does literally everything that isn't tanking to get the 1OA.

 

[Dotter]

They're relevant again, that's what matters. The Wings aren't relevant anymore and we have GM who is too stubborn to actually do what is necessary to fix the team. Get ready for a summer packed full of more bad contacts and zero proactive management.

He just proved he will. He traded Vanek, Ott, Smith, Jurco for a bunch of 2017 picks. He is proving a rebuild. He's probably not doing it aggressively enough like Leafs did for some fans here.

But the fact he was a seller at trade deadline is proof.

 

[Heaton]

He just proved he will. He traded Vanek, Ott, Smith, Jurco for a bunch of 2017 picks. He is proving a rebuild. He's probably not doing it aggressively enough like Leafs did for some fans here.

But the fact he was a seller at trade deadline is proof.

Considering his goal is to make moves to make the playoffs next year, which means he does not want to continue to get high picks to replenish the organization of the talent we sorely need, tells us otherwise. Luckily, his poor management will do his job for him and even though he will continue to compound the issue with bad contracts, we'll still get high picks.

It's kinda like his development 'strategy'. Instead of being proactive about rebuilding, he'll just wait for injuries and other mistakes to open doors he should be opening himself. We'll see what he does in the offseason, but everything he says doesn't point to being serious about rebuilding this team in any proper way.

 

[Heaton]

I found it pretty rich that Holland mentioned that you can get elite talent in the later rounds, like it has just as high of a chance as if you were drafting in the top 5.

We're at a point where we have to stop pointing back to Datsyuk and Zetterberg like we can get those players with any regularity. The Wings haven't drafted a top pairing defenseman in almost 20 years and we haven't drafted any 'elite' players in almost 20 years. Holland is just paying lip service with his comments, my theory is that he's just going to continue down this path for another year, then he'll move on. He doesn't have a true rebuild in him, but the next guy will.

 

[HIFE]

That is PR bull**** and Detroit would not care to hear it. There is probably 2% of the fanbase that cares to hear something like that. And if Holland said it, everyone who already hates him would zero in on it and say "WTF Holland" when he signs a 4th liner to a 4th liner's salary. Or does literally everything that isn't tanking to get the 1OA.

98% don't care to hear it? Sure. I trust Ken Daniel's opinion on the matter a lot more than this- he said DETROIT would be accepting of a rebuild. I've mentioned casual vs. hardcore fans but we aren't that stupid when it comes to hockey.

You're right it would be ******** because Holland doesn't believe it. He said he's concerned about the short-term: making the playoffs and remaining competitive. He relayed again the exact phrase "a few tweaks we'll be right back in the mix". That interview he sounded like a complete nut-job IMO.

 

[TatarTangle]

I found it pretty rich that Holland mentioned that you can get elite talent in the later rounds, like it has just as high of a chance as if you were drafting in the top 5.

We're at a point where we have to stop pointing back to Datsyuk and Zetterberg like we can get those players with any regularity. The Wings haven't drafted a top pairing defenseman in almost 20 years and we haven't drafted any 'elite' players in almost 20 years. Holland is just paying lip service with his comments, my theory is that he's just going to continue down this path for another year, then he'll move on. He doesn't have a true rebuild in him, but the next guy will.

I agree, that is the most likely theory. Why make a comment that would attach your name to the team for another ten years if you don't plan on staying.

Gonna have to do some digging and and see which GMs contracts will be up at that time. I know Chelios won't take a full-time gig because of his parents but it'd be pretty cool to go into 2019 with a new GM and Chelios as the head coach

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

98% don't care to hear it? Sure. I trust Ken Daniel's opinion on the matter a lot more than this- he said DETROIT would be accepting of a rebuild. I've mentioned casual vs. hardcore fans but we aren't that stupid when it comes to hockey.

You're right it would be ******** because Holland doesn't believe it. He said he's concerned about the short-term: making the playoffs and remaining competitive. He relayed again the exact phrase "a few tweaks we'll be right back in the mix". That interview he sounded like a complete nut-job IMO.

Detroit is accepting of a rebuild because of what happened this year. They finally missed the playoffs and missed them definitively. This year needed to happen before the average fan would jump on the rebuild train.

They've already hit close to the bottom... and the Pistons suck like hell and the Tigers are in the weird place where they are likely to be awful as well.

Also, the new stadium is opening. If the Wings had tried starting a burn-it-down rebuild at the time of the approval of the stadium funding or when ground was broken... you would've had a riot on your hands. You're getting 200 million of our dollars and you're actively trying to suck? Detroiters are forgiving about a hell of a lot, but stealing money from them is not one of them.

 

[jkutswings]

I didn't say the Wings should've held a press conference 3 years ago for rebuilding. I said they should make those comments now. After this lousy season that ended the streak.

So if you agree that Detroit fans would be ok with rebuilding, then why is coming out and saying you're rebuilding just nonsense? I mean, I get that if you're not going to rebuild, there's no point in talking out of both sides of your mouth. But the comments themselves - assuming that it really is the direction you're heading - would be a welcome change from the rhetoric of the last 2-3 years.

 

[The Zermanator]

He just proved he will. He traded Vanek, Ott, Smith, Jurco for a bunch of 2017 picks. He is proving a rebuild. He's probably not doing it aggressively enough like Leafs did for some fans here.

But the fact he was a seller at trade deadline is proof.

Please tell us how acquiring 2nd/3rd rounders or later is going to fix this team.

You tell me. You're the one who brought that up.

Well you may not have specified 10 years exactly, but said they had been bad for a long time. The point I made was that you can't pin a rebuilding team's failures of years past on a new management team.

The current Oilers are largely a product of Chiarelli, and the current Leafs are overwhelmingly a product of the Shanahan era.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Red Wings GM has no interest in painful rebuild

"Maybe nobody likes our players or contracts"

Hah

I can't believe we're here again. Hopefully Holland is gone in a year and the next guy will do what's best for the team. This is getting old. Denial is a terrible thing.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

“Am I going to work the phones?” Holland said. “Yeah, we’ve had a lousy year. I’m not going to step up and make this bold announcement, ‘I’m going to make massive, sweeping changes.’ I don’t know if I’m going to make massive, sweeping changes. Maybe nobody likes our players or their contracts.”

Holland just always comes across as kind of pathetic. It's like he's this black sheep of the NHL, where nobody will really interact with him. There are never any trades, because nobody ever wants what we have. I wonder why that is.

But that aside, what kind of strategy do you actually have if (1) you're not going to rebuild, and (2) you're not optimistic about your ability to make trades? Are the Wings going to restock their roster based on mid-round picks and UFAs? It's starting to sound like it. What the hell kind of plan is that?

 

[Winger98]

No, but making moves to only address the short term and try to make the playoffs just delays the healing process. Whether or not we need to win the lottery aside, we need more than one year of high picks.

If the team is as bad as it's made out to be, though, outside of something big (like signing Shattenkirk), it's pretty unlikely that Holland can significantly move the needle that much this off-season, though.

Outside of convincing Vegas to take a bad contract, I'm not sure I see a way for us to make the sort of moves really necessary. I'm also not interested in seeing us hemorrhage assets - such as moving Nyquist/Tatar for something significantly below their value to us - to force us into a tank.

I guess I just don't see Holland's remarks as something that indicates any great change from what we will likely be pushed into doing regardless. Maybe Holland will surprise and pull a rabbit out of his hat, dead or alive, but I think what we see now is largely what we will see in October, minus a few smaller moves. And those smaller moves to make us a better club will either keep us from being god awful, or be the subtle push needed to contend for a wild card spot, depending on how awful you see this team.

 

[AD1066]

Everyone up for another go-around on the carousel of denial? Weeeeee

 

[Frk It]

Red Wings GM has no interest in painful rebuild

"Maybe nobody likes our players or contracts"

Hah

Give me a new General Manager. Please and Thank You.

 

[njx9]

I can't think of a stronger indictment of Holland's ability than that no other team in the league wants any of our players, or they see the contracts they're signed to as too ugly to take on.

 

[Ezekial]

It's great how Holland can say something like that with zero introspection. I'll defend what Holland says from time to time due to context, but there is no defense for that statement.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I can't think of a stronger indictment of Holland's ability than that no other team in the league wants any of our players, or they see the contracts they're signed to as too ugly to take on.

What is he gonna say?

For the love of crap, if he wanted to make a deal, he puts Larkin out there and he gets a return. He puts Mantha out there and he gets a pretty good return.

He's saying that maybe nobody wants their assets for a young, top pairing D or a young, top line C... which is of course a no-brainer, but he's pretty much saying that it is up to other teams if they want his players to make a deal. He's not going to make change for the sake of change. He's not going to sweep out players for the sake of sweeping them out.

He's essentially saying "maybe nobody wants our players for something that would make a difference for us." The team would certainly be different if they dealt Larkin for a guy like Emelin, but it would be worse. He's not looking to make a deal to make the team worse.

Part of it is self defense against not making a deal (saying that it is on other teams interest in his players to make a move) and part is not cutting himself off at the legs in negotiations.

I mean, honestly, everyone lost their damn minds on not getting a 1st back for Vanek because "that was his value"... but nobody wanted to trade for him at that value.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Give me a new General Manager. Please and Thank You.

I think we're stuck with Holland until his contract expires next season and he hopefully retires or at least moves elsewhere in the organization.

I have to wonder if part of this is trying to maintain his legacy. So the team was never all out terrible under his watch.