The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part II

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Micklebot

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I think he also assumed, like many of us, that our young defencemen would step up and actually contribute something to the team - that we had better defensive pieces who were NHL ready in the org to cope with the loss of a defenceman like Methot than we did NHL ready centers to replace a top-6 center like Brassard.

Looking at you, Claesson/Harpur. Don't look at me like that, you both know what you did.

Certainly it's possible that they thought Claesson and Harpur would fill a top 4 role, but then again, why sign Oduya if they were confident in that?

Now, if they felt Brassard was too valuable to give up, Pageau may have been the guy to expose (fill a 3rd line role rather than a 2nd line role), in which case, we have Smith slide into the 3rd line center role (probably what happens too if Brass were exposed, except Pageau slides into the 2nd line center role).

It's hindsight now, but you basically have two options going into the year;

Hoffman-Turris-Ryan
Dzingel-Pageau/Brass-Stone
UFA-Smith-Pyatt
Dido-Thompson-Burrows

Methot-Karlsson
Phaneuf-Ceci
Chabot/Boro- Wideman
ex: Harpur, Claesson

OR

Hoffman-Turris-Ryan
Dzingel-Brass-Stone
Smith-Pageau-Pyatt
Dido-Thompson-Burrows

Oduya-Karlsson
Phaneuf-Ceci
Chabot/Boro- Wideman

To me, it all comes down to the relative usefulness of the UFA in option one vs the usefulness of Oduya in option B, and how their counterpart performs (Methot and Brass/Pageau). We know Oduya was pretty useless, so how well would we have done with a low cost UFA like Cullen or Desharnais?

What I think happened, is Methot cost about 1.4 mil more than Brass or Pageau in real dollars, and that tipped the scales in the evaluation of options.
 

BonkTastic

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Certainly it's possible that they thought Claesson and Harpur would fill a top 4 role, but then again, why sign Oduya if they were confident in that?

I always assumed that Oduya was signed as a "safety valve" in case Claesson and/or Harpur proved they weren't ready for prime-time... a "Plan B" in case the in-house guys didn't step up. And then they didn't step up basically at all right from Day 1, and we used Oduya in a prime role. And then that sucked, too.

We basically struck out across the board in that regard. Our Plan A was one of the kids. Our Plan B was Oduya. Plan C, apparently, was just being a really bad hockey team with a sieve-like blueline.

What I think happened, is Methot cost about 1.4 mil more than Brass or Pageau in real dollars, and that tipped the scales in the evaluation of options.

That's a fair take, too. It's probably a combination of both, to be honest.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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Methot ended up getting traded for a 2nd round pick and a warm body prospect, so the idea that the price was too high to re-acquire him seems to hinge on the premise that Vegas was asking more from Ottawa than it would accept from others.

The VGK took advantage of Phaneuf's refusal to waive his NMC and forcing Dorion into protecting whom he ended up protecting ........ it does not matter what you think he should have protected, he's the GM and protected who he did.

The VGK thought they could extract a higher price, for Methot, who they let it be known that he was going to be traded, and Ottawa did not pay whatever they asked.

So they traded him to Dallas for a 2nd in 2020 and the "warm body" has a name, he is Dylan Ferguson, a goaltender, and he actually has played 1 game for them this season.

So if they asked Ottawa for a 2nd in 2020 and a goaltender prospect, like Hogberg, would you not agree that if this was the price, it was to high?
 

BondraTime

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Nov 20, 2005
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The VGK took advantage of Phaneuf's refusal to waive his NMC and forcing Dorion into protecting whom he ended up protecting ........ it does not matter what you think he should have protected, he's the GM and protected who he did.

The VGK thought they could extract a higher price, for Methot, who they let it be known that he was going to be traded, and Ottawa did not pay whatever they asked.

So they traded him to Dallas for a 2nd in 2020 and the "warm body" has a name, he is Dylan Ferguson, a goaltender, and he actually has played 1 game for them this season.

So if they asked Ottawa for a 2nd in 2020 and a goaltender prospect, like Hogberg, would you not agree that if this was the price, it was to high?
Well, Hogberg was a 3rd round pick with 3 years worth of development, and Ferguson was a just drafted 7th rounder, with zero development.

He got a game because Vegas had 4 goalies go down, they had traded Pickard, and then being in the league for less than a year Ferguson was the only option.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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Well, Hogberg was a 3rd round pick with 3 years worth of development, and Ferguson was a just drafted 7th rounder, with zero development.

He got a game because Vegas had 4 goalies go down, they had traded Pickard, and then being in the league for less than a year Ferguson was the only option.


Well we don't know what the VGK asked in return for Methot, and we can guess it was more than a 7th round prospect and a 2nd in 2020.
 

Zorf

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I've always assumed that the Senators never intended to trade for Methot after VGK took him because they needed to shed salaries heading into the upcoming summer of doom with Stone and EK being up for renegotiation.

I always felt that the team was ok with losing one of Methot or Smith, just to shed the dollars, and that Dorion saying the price was too high was him banking on Methot being traded for a 1st. The eventual deal for Methot pretty much killed that claim by Dorion and was a cause of angst amongst many of the fans.

And this was before Eugene went full penny pincher. In hindsight, I think my assumptions were correct.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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I've always assumed that the Senators never intended to trade for Methot after VGK took him because they needed to shed salaries heading into the upcoming summer of doom with Stone and EK being up for renegotiation.

I always felt that the team was ok with losing one of Methot or Smith, just to shed the dollars, and that Dorion saying the price was too high was him banking on Methot being traded for a 1st. The eventual deal for Methot pretty much killed that claim by Dorion and was a cause of angst amongst many of the fans.

And this was before Eugene went full penny pincher. In hindsight, I think my assumptions were correct.


Rumours are rumours, and the rumoured price tag to NOT Select an exposed Methot was Fredrik Claesson, (whom the Golden Knights likely would have selected with Methot off the table), and a first-round pick that would have been included as protection assurance.

I applaud Dorion for not paying that rumoured ransom, if that rumour was true ......... and after he was taken, Methot was told that he was going to be traded, and I have not heard what Dorion was asked for after Methot was selected by the VGK.
 

h2owned

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Nov 17, 2009
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Summary of Ottawa's trades this year:
Turris + Brassard + Phaneuf +Thompson + '19 1st + Bowers + '19 3rd + '18 3rd + Dido + Hammond for Duchene + Gaborik + '18 Pit 1st + Gustavsson + Pit '19 3rd + CLB '20 3rd + Moutrey + Pokka + CGY '19 7th + 25% of Phaneufs contract.

Essentially boils down to Turris+Brassard+Phaneuf+'19 1st + Bowers for Duchene+Gaborik+Pit '18 1st +Gustavsson.

Take out the Phaneuf trade and Turris+Brassard+'19 1st+Bowers for Duchene+ Pit '18 1st + Gustavsson

Again essentially Turris+Brass+ for Duchene as depending where they finish next year, Ott '19 1st + Bowers > then Pit '18 1st + Gustavsson, could be >> if its a lottery pick.
As good as Duchene is that looks ugly. We'll have to see if the Sens can re-sign him and what their pick Colorado gets turns into.
 

JD1

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I always assumed that Oduya was signed as a "safety valve" in case Claesson and/or Harpur proved they weren't ready for prime-time... a "Plan B" in case the in-house guys didn't step up. And then they didn't step up basically at all right from Day 1, and we used Oduya in a prime role. And then that sucked, too.

We basically struck out across the board in that regard. Our Plan A was one of the kids. Our Plan B was Oduya. Plan C, apparently, was just being a really bad hockey team with a sieve-like blueline..

ya this is how i saw it too....the dollars and structure in Oduya's contract seem to make that clear. If the plan was to play him top 4...why would you sign him to an incentive heavy deal if your plan was he would reach all of the incentives. Johnny was used far more than the initial plan for his usage and in the end it showed he couldn't really handle it anymore.

claesson and harpur were the guys they needed more from
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Summary of Ottawa's trades this year:
Turris + Brassard + Phaneuf +Thompson + '19 1st + Bowers + '19 3rd + '18 3rd + Dido + Hammond for Duchene + Gaborik + '18 Pit 1st + Gustavsson + Pit '19 3rd + CLB '20 3rd + Moutrey + Pokka + CGY '19 7th + 25% of Phaneufs contract.

Essentially boils down to Turris+Brassard+Phaneuf+'19 1st + Bowers for Duchene+Gaborik+Pit '18 1st +Gustavsson.

Take out the Phaneuf trade and Turris+Brassard+'19 1st+Bowers for Duchene+ Pit '18 1st + Gustavsson

Again essentially Turris+Brass+ for Duchene as depending where they finish next year, Ott '19 1st + Bowers > then Pit '18 1st + Gustavsson, could be >> if its a lottery pick.
As good as Duchene is that looks ugly. We'll have to see if the Sens can re-sign him and what their pick Colorado gets turns into.

Any trade or sum of trades where you include Turris and Duchene in on is going to look skewed because of that.
Look at them separately because that is how they are done.
You win some, lose, some and tie some.
 

Do Make Say Think

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If we retain Duchene then that trade was so very much worth it.

Look at teams like Montréal if you want to see what happens if you think paying the price to land a top C is never worth it.
 

pzeeman

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I strongly believe that GMGM knew that Marc Methot is worth more to the Senators than to any of the other 30 teams, and so hoped to cash in on that. When GMPD wouldn’t pay a special Ottawa-only price, he moved on to what he could get elsewhere.
 

Tuna99

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
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If we retain Duchene then that trade was so very much worth it.

Look at teams like Montréal if you want to see what happens if you think paying the price to land a top C is never worth it.

Isn’t Montreal ahead of us in the standings?
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

Registered User
Oct 16, 2006
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Rumours are rumours, and the rumoured price tag to NOT Select an exposed Methot was Fredrik Claesson, (whom the Golden Knights likely would have selected with Methot off the table), and a first-round pick that would have been included as protection assurance.

I applaud Dorion for not paying that rumoured ransom, if that rumour was true ......... and after he was taken, Methot was told that he was going to be traded, and I have not heard what Dorion was asked for after Methot was selected by the VGK.
That's kind of funny to consider as a possibility. In hindsight, I would happily have given up Claesson instead.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

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Mar 16, 2009
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That team has nothing except cap space. And Carey Price.

We are in much, much better position than MTL going forward.
I generally agree but having the finances to make significant moves can't be understated.

I don't think we're in great hands though. Dorion is about as bad as it gets for a GM. Things could get real dark for this franchise if we don't manage a top 3 pick and Karlsson walks.

Bergevin and Dorion imo are tied for the worst managers in the league. Both teams are pretty much f***ed.
 
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JD1

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I generally agree but having the finances to make significant moves can't be understated.

I don't think we're in great hands though. Dorion is about as bad as it gets for a GM. Things could get real dark for this franchise if we don't manage a top 3 pick and Karlsson walks.

Bergevin and Dorion imo are tied for the worst managers in the league. Both teams are pretty much ****ed.

you can keep repeating that about Dorion....not any truth to it in my opiion
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

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would the results from last year be any proof?
Proof of what exactly? They could be a team that would barely be able to make the playoff, have a negative goal differential and be able to beat a team that was decimated by injuries?

This year's team much more reflects Dorion's vision, with more of his handpicked players and coaches. Out with the Turris and Methots in with the Thompson, Oduya, Duchene, Burrows.

He's done an unimaginably poor job. There's really no other way to put it. He's gotten beaten up badly by the league's other managers.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
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Proof of what exactly? They could be a team that would barely be able to make the playoff, have a negative goal differential and be able to beat a team that was decimated by injuries?

This year's team much more reflects Dorion's vision, with more of his handpicked players and coaches. Out with the Turris and Methots in with the Thompson, Oduya, Duchene, Burrows.

He's done an unimaginably poor job. There's really no other way to put it. He's gotten beaten up badly by the league's other managers.

I am truly sorry I responded to your post. I truly am. There isn't any point in having a discussion with someone such as yourself in regards to anything related to this franchise.
 
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FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
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I am truly sorry I responded to your post. I truly am. There isn't any point in having a discussion with someone such as yourself in regards to anything related to this franchise.
And I'm sorry I engaged you. I know how far your head is in the sand and basic facts don't matter in this discussion. Have a nice day.
 
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Langdon Alger

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Apr 19, 2006
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I generally agree but having the finances to make significant moves can't be understated.

I don't think we're in great hands though. Dorion is about as bad as it gets for a GM. Things could get real dark for this franchise if we don't manage a top 3 pick and Karlsson walks.

Bergevin and Dorion imo are tied for the worst managers in the league. Both teams are pretty much ****ed.

Chiarelli says hi.
 

Langdon Alger

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Apr 19, 2006
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I am truly sorry I responded to your post. I truly am. There isn't any point in having a discussion with someone such as yourself in regards to anything related to this franchise.

Why not? Dorion is a great evaluator or talent, but that doesnt make him a great GM.

If you’re happy with him, that’s fine, but not everyone is.
 
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