The NHLPA's problem as I see it....

[Prof_it]

I think there is fault on both sides...when negotiations stall there always is. But while the day-day profits, and lackof, are well noted by the league, they owner's growth in equity is nearly always ignored.

Franchise Values

This Marquette Law Review study shows that nearly all franchises have seen their value grow. While some have lost value in the last year, information is from 2003, most are worth more than their initial cost.

Why would billionaires pay for a money-losing hockey team? As long as the future value of the franchise continues to grow it's not a money-losing investment. Key to increased value are new rinks and favorable lease agreements.

Also, anyone on here own a business...much different than running it for investors, where the net profit is so greatly needed to attract additional shareholders. A privately owned business needs to avoid taxes, at times operating at a loss.

 

[txpd]

money then your argument is valid.

But we have seen 2 teams bought this past season so the interest is there, it's gotta be there for a reason.

Jacobs, boston's owner, has said that recent owners have bought in with the promise that a new system will be in place to help them "get their money back" when the cba was renegotiated.

 

[Papadice]

I'm not stupid enough to think that the owners didn't bring this on themselves... Hell, if they had shown some restraint then we wouldn't be in this mess... HOWEVER, they wouldn't have thrown the money out there like that if the players weren't demanding it, so the players have to take some blame for this too...

BUT the point is, regardless of who's fault it is that the league is "broken" and needs fixing, the main point is that is DOES NEED FIXING... We have blatant history showing that a free market system doesn't work in the NHL... Owners can't resist paying out the @ss for a player that they feel their team desperately needs, and the players know that so they hold out for that money, causing the owners to either ante up, or ice a less competitive team and feel the wrath of fans for not doing whatever it takes to win...

Linden's comments disgusted me... One line that I heard him say that really pissed me off was, "Our proposal today was the best chance we saw to save the hockey season." WHO CARES ABOUT THE DAMN HOCKEY SEASON!!! How about fixing the the problems at hand? If the season has to be sacrificed to get a system in place that allows all 30 teams to compete with each other and still turn a profit then so be it... It sounds like all Linden is concerned with is putting a band-aid on the situation so they can get playing again... That doesn't fix the issues...

The owners invest a TON of money into owning a team... And the players get rich... i don't see any reason why the owners shouldn't bring home a big profit themselves... they are the only ones really taking any risk in the situation... the players need to come to the reality that without the owners dishing out the cash they are to run these teams, these players would be playing for WAY less money in another league somewhere...

IMHO, this is what this all comes down to:

1) The players will never accept a hard salary cap...
2) The owners will never accept a luxury tax, UNLESS it is SO restrictive that it equates to a cap...
3) Both sides budge some or the NHL will fold after locking out for 2 or 3 years because neither side is going to give in to the other's demands as is...

I'd like to see a system that:

1) Involves a very strict luxury tax, starting at $35 million, taxing a team a dollar for every dollar they spend over the $35 million limit...
2) Reduced salary scale for rookies coming into the league seeing as they have yet to prove ANYTHING... Also, strict limitations put on bonuses paid out to rookies...
3) Either the end to salary arbitration, OR the teams have the right to bring a player to arbitration themselves just like the players have the right to bring their team to arbitration... Arbitration decisions made by people that know nothing about the game is one of the biggest weeknesses in the current system...
4) Raising the league minimum salary
5) Shortening the season to 72 games
6) Buyout of contracts dropped to 50%
7) Revenue sharing to help out the poorer teams
8) Force players to either play with wooden sticks or pay for their own composites... Their choice...
9) Unrestricted Free Agency age dropped to 29...

I know that my proposal has the players giving up a lot more than the owners, but that's pretty much the point... Right now it seams like the players are only willing to give something up if they get something back in return... Like in their proposal yesterday, they proposed less revenue sharing which would be good for the league, but to counter balance it, they raised the limit for the luxury tax... The players have to be willing to take several steps back to make the game healthy... I realize they don't want to do that and I understand, but it's what has to be done to fix the game...

It must be nice to play a game you love for a living, make millions upon millions of dollars doing so, and then have the balls to complain that you're not making enough money and screw your diehard fans by refusing to acknowledge the problems and fix the situation... I wish my balls were that big...

My biggest pet peeve with the game today:

Remember back in the day when trades were made based off player value and skill level instead of based on contracts? Those were the days... What I'd give to get back to that...

 

[The Pucks]

money then your argument is valid.

But we have seen 2 teams bought this past season so the interest is there, it's gotta be there for a reason.

Your logic is scewed. Do a financial model, who many NHL teams are losing money?

How many teams purchased recently were salvaged from Bankruptcy? Then factor in how many owners are either long term guys who have been around for many years, or family's who have a love for the game?

A quote who I can't remember said, "The best way to go from a billionaire to a millionaire? Buy and NHL team."

As of right now off the top of my head, I know that Anaheim and Vancouver have been searching for investors, purchasers for quite some time.

 

[The Pucks]

I think one of the things that is most important to the NHL teams is to get rid of arbitration. That has been a thorn in their side for years. One or two owners sign a player to a bad contract, and all others have to suffer from the comparison. It has been a gravy train for NHL players.

 

[degroat*]

Having hockey is more imortant that anything.

Period.

You're right.. it is the most important thing, which is why this lockout will be great for the future of the NHL. What's important isn't having hockey start in 5 days. It's having hockey for many many more years.

 

[ceber]

The NHLPA finished there audit of the 30 teams last week. They have kept suspiciously silent as to what they found. Their silence makes me believe that they found that the NHL had been telling the truth regarding the millions of dollors of losses per year! If the NHLPA found otherwise the would have been all over the press spouting that the NHL lies etc..etc..

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3000694

The union says of the $224 million NHL teams claimed to have lost last year, $170 million was concentrated on just six teams.

Apparently they don't necessarily disagree with the total loss claimed.

Looks like six teams are responsible for shutting down the league this season. I wonder who they are?

 

[fan mao rong]

Union proposal of yesterday: Have not seen it mentioned on here that the luxury tax proposed started at a payroll of $50 million and was at the rate of TEN CENTS ON THE DOLLAR OF ANY AMOUNT OF PAYROLL OVER $50 million. It's a joke.

 

[pld459666]

Sorry, but

Well, thanks for your opinion on the work of one of the world's most respected economists.

We'll put lots and lots of stock in it.

By the way... Einstein didn't know what he was talking about.

---------------------------------------------

The original poster hit it bang on... the players just want to get as much as they think they can get... that is their only concern.

What they don't understand is that they haven't 'deserved' what they've had for the past ten years, and they should just be happy that they sucked the owners dry while they could. They won't though... and we probably won't see hockey again for a long time.

If the 'fans' of the game had any collective brains, they'd ALL rally to the side of the owners. Were all public opinion polls to be concluded with %90+ support of the owners, we'd have hockey again real soon.

When you're told what is Hockey related Revenue and what isn't and you conduct your numbers based off that criteria, even the most respected Auditing company is wrong since the numbers he is reviewing are are skewered.

 

[Booyah!]

Solution should be something like 35MM luxury tax up to $50MM, after 50MM a Hard Cap kicks in where teams lose draft picks and dollar for dollar fines. Money is then only distributed to the Canadian teams who are at a disadvantage because of currency risk. They pay their players in USD and receive their revenues in CD's, this is a big problem. I don't think any US teams should receive any help from the NHL because it's not fair for the revenue producing teams like Det, Philly, Toronto, NYR should have to subsidize cheap owners like Wirtz and Jacobs or support failing mistakes of a franchise like Tampa or Florida where hockey's not working.

 

[I in the Eye]

When you're told what is Hockey related Revenue and what isn't and you conduct your numbers based off that criteria, even the most respected Auditing company is wrong since the numbers he is reviewing are are skewered.

An auditor independently determines what should be included as business-related revenue... In this case, hockey-related revenue... An auditor isn't told what is to be included as revenue (and what is to be included as expenses)... Of course, an auditor discusses things with business owners, but in the end, it's the auditor's own independent research and expert opinion that determines what revenues and costs will be used to determine the business value... A business auditor does not simply use the numbers given to him by the business owner...

In case you're wondering how I know, a good friend of mine values companies for Price Waterhouse Coopers...

 

[windowlicker]

Looks like six teams are responsible for shutting down the league this season. I wonder who they are?

Seriously, who are they?

 

[I in the Eye]

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3000694

Apparently they don't necessarily disagree with the total loss claimed.

Looks like six teams are responsible for shutting down the league this season. I wonder who they are?

Even if assuming that the union's numbers are accurate (I have my own personal bias that says that the numbers are likely inaccurate... but for the sake of making a point, I assume that they are correct)

6 out of 30 franchises lost $170 million... 20%!!! That's more than one whole Division!

If it was just 6 out of 200 or more franchises (i.e. < 5%), I'd say this doesn't show a severe problem... But 6 out of 30 losing $170 million is very significant - that's 20% of all the franchises losing, on average, approx. $30 million each!!!

Is the NHLPA that dense... or are they simply trying to give the impression by using the little number 6 (PR move) that the NHL's problems aren't as significant as the independent auditor and the NHL say it is... hmm...

 

[SensGod]

No one...and I mean NO ONE other than the owners are to blame for this whole situation.

The owners had a CBA which clearly gave them the controls to keep salaries under control. Players are only entitled to recieve a 10% raise a year until they are a UFA.

Some owners decided to essentially negate the cost certainty control built into this CBA because they were just stupid...giving the likes of Pronger and Kariya 9 mill a season before they were shaving on a daily basis was the downfall of the league in the last couple of years with escalating salaries.

Now players have gotten accustomed to the money they have made these past few years, and they have their salary expectations now based on the present situation.

If your employer was paying you 80 grand a year, and came to you now and said I'm going to be making 45 grand a year and do the same job I'm doing at 80 grand a year and state that it's in the contract that he shouldn't be paying me as much as I am, but was stupid to do so.

My response, "suck it up buddy...you f'd up...deal with it...PAY ME!"

Don't get mad at the players...get mad at the owners...this is all their fault.

 

[I in the Eye]

No one...and I mean NO ONE other than the owners are to blame for this whole situation.

I agree - the owners are to blame for agreeing to the old CBA... and only the owners will be able to get themselves out of it...

I actually like the players... and don't blame them at all for wanting to get as much as they can... gotta love the blue collar working man...

But I want the owners to dig themselves out of the hole they put themselves in... only they can do it - and save the NHL from self-destructing...

The damage is already done... no use dwelling on who'se to blame, IMO... It's time to get this thing fixed!

 

[YellHockey*]

Looks like six teams are responsible for shutting down the league this season. I wonder who they are?

I'd guess:

Rangers
Capitals
Kings
Blues
Hurricanes
Mighty Ducks

 

[pld459666]

It's kind of interesting that the League

Seriously, who are they?

has pointed to the Rangers losing money. While that may be entirely true, it's their own fault for having such a large payroll and such limited production from it.

I just think that the league likes to use the Rangers and Blackhawks due the market size they play in to point to the "no one is safe" from losses.

 

[SOS]

I'd guess:

Rangers
Capitals
Kings
Blues
Hurricanes
Mighty Ducks

Add the Coyotes since Gretz has openly confessed his team is losing big time $$$.

 

[Peter]

Add the Coyotes since Gretz has openly confessed his team is losing big time $$$.

Yes, interesting interview, on TSN, with Gretzky who said, "I am not lying...the Coyotes are losing big time money and will continue to under the current structure."

To which Watter's said to the camera, "So are the players now calling Gretzky a liar. Gretzky??"

 

[PecaFan]

Franchise Values

This Marquette Law Review study shows that nearly all franchises have seen their value grow. While some have lost value in the last year, information is from 2003, most are worth more than their initial cost.

Interesting study, but perhaps not worth the pdf the report is printed on. For example, they have Anaheim worth $111 million, when supposedly they were offered $50 million today.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=98198

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3000694
Apparently they don't necessarily disagree with the total loss claimed.

The owners said $270 million, so there is a difference there.

The owners had a CBA which clearly gave them the controls to keep salaries under control. Players are only entitled to recieve a 10% raise a year until they are a UFA.

That has been proven wrong over and over again. First of all, there's arbitration, a one sided system only available to players, that increases salaries massively.

Secondly, while players may only be entitled to 10% raises, very few get that, because most players won't accept it. They hold it, causing their team massive harm, until the GM's have no choice but to give in to the players demands.

Oh sure, a GM can always hold the line, let his team sink into mediocrity, let players walk for nothing because they're asking for too much, but guess what that leads to? Their own firing, because they're doing a bad job.

Do you make decisions at work that directly lead to your firing? Hardly.

 

[Prof_it]

Interesting study, but perhaps not worth the pdf the report is printed on. For example, they have Anaheim worth $111 million, when supposedly they were offered $50 million today.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=98198

I also thought that offer for the Ducks was interesting...i'm curious to see if it's seriously considered or if it's just fodder for the headlines.

 

[no13matssundin]

The NHLPA's problem is that theyre GREEDY.

 

[YellHockey*]

That has been proven wrong over and over again. First of all, there's arbitration, a one sided system only available to players, that increases salaries massively.

It is available only to players because it is the only bargaining tool they have in the current CBA until they turn 31.

As well, it only increases salaries massively because the rookie salary cap decreases salaries massively from their true market value.

Secondly, while players may only be entitled to 10% raises, very few get that, because most players won't accept it. They hold it, causing their team massive harm, until the GM's have no choice but to give in to the players demands.

You mean like Peter Schaefer and Mike Peca?

 

[Loki]

If the players/owners really cared about the game they could get together on a CBA that would also see average ticket prices lowered.

Wouldn't that be great.

Owners - "We need to reduce player salaries by 28%" (1.8m to 1.3m)
Players - "Ok as long as you reduce ticket prices by 15% so more of our adoring fans can enjoy watching us play"

HA HA.

 

[Randall Graves*]

Yes they had trouble getting fans back after the last strike but lucky for them they had McGwire & Sosa chasing the record books. Its pretty well documented now that when Big Mac broke the record that yr that interest in the game returned to pre-strike status. Bonds has helped continue to keep the fans in the seats and interested in the game with his pursuit of Hank Aaron.

Point of this: when an athlete can bring attention to the sport for some reason, the sport can rebound. Why did I point this out? Because the league could have a potential savior in Crosby...if they can build him up correctly (and figure a way to open up the game so there's a more offensive game like in the late 70s & early 80s), the fan interest in the game can return quickly. There are no other players currently in the league that can transcend the game like certain players of the past were able to. If the league had just one (though a competition between 2 is more healthy), then they'll regain those fans with less issues than everyone thinks.

I don't see how Crosby can save the league since it is not as popular as baseball was pre strike.

People are going to be disappointed when Crosby doesn't get the attention of say a Lebron James.