the nhl 03/04 rookie crop is certainly impressive, and pretty deep too, but...

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stardog

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bleedgreen said:
alright, i dont like lindros either - never did...but how is he not considered a franchise player? he was the top center, or one of the top 5 through out the majority of the 90's! he won the hart trophy! that means he is not only the best player on the flyers - he was the best in the league, you cant judge him not a franchise player for what he is now. your description of that kind of player doesnt fit anyone but highest hall of famers - which is pushing it. is doug gilmour a franchise player? in my opinion, as great as he was - he was only on top of the world for 2 seasons in toronto, but he still deserves consideration, doesnt he? lindros shouldnt be disqualified for the end of his term in philly - i think that was a mess that clarke played a large part in, then blaming eric's dad. lindros almost died of a collapsed lung, and still he was scorned.
I would make the arguements for yashin and bure, but im lazy and dont feel like getting flamed by people with short memories - these guys were in that class. Yzerman was my favorite player to watch throughout my whole life - i would slo mo old highlights on tape to learn how to toe drag and score sweet goals, i respect him to the highest order. He is no longer a big scorer - and is the franchise in his presence only, but if he had been traded 5 years ago to a losing team, limping around for a couple years on bad knees refusing to quit despite dwindling stats and criticisms of an unforgiving media (and people on this board)saying he should of hung them up years ago - would he make your list then? is jagr not on your list? its a crime if he isnt.

Jagr was one of three players to win the Art Ross trophy (4 times I believe?) over a span of 19 years. The most dominant offensive force in the late 90's. He easily is a franchise player, and he easily wore out his welcome in Pittsburgh.
To say he isnt a franchise player, I'll agree, is a crime.
 

stardog

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db23 said:
Vlad the Inhaler is more like it.

I gave the reason that Komisarek would take longer than others to put it all together. Read the thread before you open up that digestive tract in the front of your face. Despite his size and late start in the game, he was the top scoring rookie defenceman in the AHL last season when he was called up and a starter in the All Star game. Unanimous First Team All American the year before as a college soph. He got more votes than Ryan Miller. He was chosen Minor League Player of the Year by the Hockey News even though he spent the last two months of the season in Montreal. He was named to the AHL All Star team again this season, even though he only played 18 games in the league.

Mike has been one of the Habs best defencemen the past few games once he was given some serious playing time. He was drafted where he was for some very good reasons, and if you watched him play recently, we wouldn't have to explain them to you.

Ummmm, not sure why you would mention this at all or go off on him like that. If you wanna tell Vlad to read the thread, maybe you should yourself.
I asked him precisley why he didnt think Komi would be a franchise player (though I think he has the potential to be close to one). He didnt just go off and give his opinion. It was asked for by me. And I thank him for providing it.
He answered a question with a well thought out answer, and it was a question that he was ASKED to answer. He didnt bring up Komi's name, nor did he just go off and bash Komi all on his own.
I think his answer was fine given that i asked his opinion on it, and even if I didnt, it would be fine considering Komi was brought up in the first place.
Maybe you're just screwin around with him, but I thought I'd explain why he posted what he did in case you weren't.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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db23 said:
are you the fat one or the ugly one?

You are being unbelievably rude. There was a time when this site was not moderated, I'd have happily put you in your place as you obviously deserve. That time is unfortunately gone but you can be sure I have asked the mods to look into this thread.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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db23 said:
Vlad the Inhaler is more like it.

I gave the reason that Komisarek would take longer than others to put it all together. Read the thread before you open up that digestive tract in the front of your face. Despite his size and late start in the game, he was the top scoring rookie defenceman in the AHL last season when he was called up and a starter in the All Star game. Unanimous First Team All American the year before as a college soph. He got more votes than Ryan Miller. He was chosen Minor League Player of the Year by the Hockey News even though he spent the last two months of the season in Montreal. He was named to the AHL All Star team again this season, even though he only played 18 games in the league.

Mike has been one of the Habs best defencemen the past few games once he was given some serious playing time. He was drafted where he was for some very good reasons, and if you watched him play recently, we wouldn't have to explain them to you.

Who's "we"?

I don't care that you gave reasons as to why it will take him time to be a franchise player. Because he won't be a franchise player. Ever.

But thanks for the "explanation". Now I'll go inhale stuff. Because it works for me.
 

stardog

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db23 said:
When I said that I thought Komisarek could be a franchise player, I specified that it would take him longer to show it because of his background. This guy is just being a jerk, from his initial mocking smilies to the garbage he posted afterwards.

"The only thing he does well is cross check people in the back".

That gets you on the USNTDP team and two WJC appearances, First Team NCAA All American as a sophomore, Starting All Star team in the AHL as a 20 year old rookie pro, Hockey News Minor League Player of the Year, etc. etc. doesn't it?
All you have to do in this game to accumulate all of those honors and awards is to be able to cross check people in the back. Ask the fans who watch him play if they think he has no skills or potential? Better yet watch him yourself.

If someone chooses to act like a backwoods jerk, then I'll respond in kind. Oh, and about the picture you have up....are you the fat one or the ugly one?

Ya know...everyone has a right to an opinion. I happen to agree that Komi could be a franchise player.
As for the various personal insults thrown around in this thread by you, I have no respect or time for them. There have been warnings and bans given for less.

I don't see why you feel the need to throw insults around.Especially considering that no one insulted you. That is your perogative of course, but I would certainly be more careful or you may not be able to post here for long.

And i do watch him play, if i didnt I wouldnt have backed YOU up on what i feel he may become.
 
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bleedgreen

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fullmetalninja said:
Hey Caniac-

Ruutu just wanted the same type of contract every other player in the top 15 got. What Mike Smith, and Bill Wirtz objected to was the Joe Thornton model that EVERY top pick has gotten since.

Meaning, specifically, that if Ruutu met his rookie contract goals in ONE year, the clause was kicked in for all three years.

So before you go judging some kid you know obviously nothing about(and all your franchise players are in the east........ okay) If Staal doesn't get a deal like that, there is no way he signs. NO AGENT let's a kid sign a deal that is clearly inferior.

Let me repeat that, every agent with a top 15 pick, under the current agreement- requires that type of contract model. ITS THE HAWKS THAT WERE AT FAULT IN THIS, NOT RUUTU.

Its also not Mike Smith, it was Bill Wirtz. If Wirtz goes to Mike Smith and says- I don't give a darn, sign this kid--- the kid was signed. Its that simple.

I don't know how one defines a franchise player... but to Say that Tuomo Ruutu does not have a good enough attitude means you haven't paid attention to what Tuomo Ruutu is about.

-fullmetalninja
i would have to go back and make sure - but i recall staals deal NOT being the "model" contract. thats the only way the canes would sign him. i admit to not being the most knowledgeable about the details of such things - but i remember reading that staals bonuses were not the stanadard that thornten set - and guys like kovy and heatley have received. the agent admitted he ahd made some concessions as well, giving the notion some credence. fluery and horton i bvelieve did get the model, as they felt they had to sign them. carolina thought they were a playoff team without staal - and signed him after he played his way on the team. i dont know how big a difference there was in staals contract - other than it was publicly called not the model by the canes.
 

Mizral

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Cut the insults, boys and girls. Thanks for not going ape Vlad.

Ryan Kesler just played his 25th game of the season last night against LA, and is one of only 8 players this year to play in the NHL out of the 2003 first round.

(The others are, if you're interested: Marc-Andre Fleury, Eric Staal, Nathan Horton, Nikolai Zherdev, Milan Michalek, Dustin Brown, and Brent Burns.)

Anyhow, Kesler's stats are the following:

AHL - Manitoba Moose: 33 Games, 3 goals, 11 points, 29 PIM's
NHL - Vancouver Canucks: 25 games, 2 goals, 4 points, 14 PIM's

Hardly gaudy, but Kesler has shown a lot of good stuff out there. In a way, he reminds me of John Madden of the Jersey Devils. Kesler is exceptionally fast, and already at 19 the kid is very adept defensivly. I don't think he'll ever be a top 6 player, but I could see him being a top end 3rd liner that could be the centrepeice of a shutdown line (perhaps with Trevor Linden and Matt Cooke?).

Already, the Cooke/Kesler/Linden line has shown very good chemistry, and Kesler has actually, in my mind at least, outplayed Mike Keane this last month and a half. At only 19, he's certainly got a long ways to go, but it's nice to see a young kid already so adept at playing the pro-hockey game.

He'll never be a superstar, or even a 'star' I don't think. But I think he can be a very important peice to a future Cup winning squad. According to the Vancouver Sun this morning, almost every organization that talked with the Canucks at the trading deadline expressed interest in Ryan Kesler, which is quite a compliment.
 

John Flyers Fan

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Til the End of Time said:
I think a big part of the reason many of this year's successful rookies are not being called franchise players is because, for the most part, they weren't drafted too high.
Malone 115th overall, Ryder 216th overall, and I'm not sure where Hunter exactly was drafted but not too high.

Pitkanen is an exception. Drafted high, playing well, so people will call him a franchise player.

But if Malone, Raycroft, Ryder, Hunter were top picks then we'd consider them franchise players.

All about draft position, seems to me.


Not draft position, but age.

Hunter, Ryder and Malone are all 23 or 24 years of age.

If they were doing what there doing this year at he age of 19-20 then people would think a bit differently of them.
 

mmmBeer

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John Flyers Fan said:
Not draft position, but age.

Hunter, Ryder and Malone are all 23 or 24 years of age.

If they were doing what there doing this year at he age of 19-20 then people would think a bit differently of them.

I'd say draft position matters a lot too...

Bergeron is doing what Malone is doing at the age of 18, yet people can't get over the fact that he was a 2nd-rounder.
 

Mizral

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BBBBruin said:
I'd say draft position matters a lot too...

Bergeron is doing what Malone is doing at the age of 18, yet people can't get over the fact that he was a 2nd-rounder.


Malone was a 4th rounder, was he not?

And Bergeron isn't really doing what Malone is doing. Bergeron is playing well, but Malone is really playing a power forwards game this year and leading his team in scoring - a pretty amazing feat for a rookie in the NHL.
 

Sting

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Mizral said:
Malone was a 4th rounder, was he not?

And Bergeron isn't really doing what Malone is doing. Bergeron is playing well, but Malone is really playing a power forwards game this year and leading his team in scoring - a pretty amazing feat for a rookie in the NHL.

Not when your team is called the Pittsburgh Penguins.
 

mmmBeer

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Mizral said:
Malone was a 4th rounder, was he not?

And Bergeron isn't really doing what Malone is doing. Bergeron is playing well, but Malone is really playing a power forwards game this year and leading his team in scoring - a pretty amazing feat for a rookie in the NHL.

That he was a 4th-rounder isn't incredibly relevant when the argument is whether it's his draft position or age that prevents him from being tagged a franchise player.

Bergeron has been as productive as Malone while seeing three minutes less icetime a game. He plays in all situations, even taking defensive zone faceoffs in the last minute of 1 goal games (on a team that has other options for that situation). What Bergeron is doing as an 18 year old is as impressive as what Malone is doing on a horrible team. If you wanna give the edge to Malone because he's a power forward, or what you see from each on the ice, so be it. Both players have had amazing rookie seasons. The question is, though, whether people are still skeptical because of their age or because of there draft position, and I'd argue that draft position has as much to do with it as age.
 

db23

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Vlad The Impaler said:
I don't care that you gave reasons as to why...........

Isn't making a statement, then attempting to back it up with facts, the whole point of these boards?

Or is it just to say "I know the way things are and you don't, so there, nya, nya, nya........".

Then using mocking smilies pointing to a quote to show what an expert you are.

Then running to Mom if things don't go your way.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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db23 said:
Isn't making a statement, then attempting to back it up with facts, the whole point of these boards?

No. That is only the point of the board for certain not-so desirable elements who post here. This place isn't about winning arguments.

The "point of these boards" I would hope is to spread correct information. Information based experience, observations, knowledge and on facts that are*processed* and *put into context*.

It's one thing to list a couple of stats or achievements. It's quite another to interpret it correctly using discernment. That is the difference between you and I. It doesn't really matter to me anymore how I do it. As I said there was a time where I would have been disturbed and unsettled by new guys who don't know what they are talking about and get their panties in a bunch.

I know how this is supposed to play out:

1-We'd go into a long argument process several pages long, like I've done in the past. Insults being thrown (like you've done so far)

2-You'd pull stupid arguments out of your ass, flash stats. Shout very loud like you know your stuff.

3-Observers would take sides. More insults being thrown back and forth

4-The thread gets locked, I get warned and possibly banned. You would as well. Some of my posts would be erased.

5-Eventually I'll be proven right but nobody will remember the argument in the first place.

Nothing gained at all for anybody. Instead, I'm just confident that people who know what I stand for and know me will understand my position. I am also confident some people are agreeing with you, unfortunately for them. All is well, both our opinions are there for people to look at.

db23 said:
Or is it just to say "I know the way things are and you don't, so there, nya, nya, nya........".

Yes. I know how things are, unfortunately for you. If I didn't, I wouldn't state things in the first place because I don't like misinformation nor looking like a dimbulb a few months later. Simply following this simple philosophy and shutting my trap when I don't know better has enabled me to be correct more often than not in the years I've spent here.

db23 said:
Then using mocking smilies pointing to a quote to show what an expert you are.

The opposite. The smilies are not to show what an expert I am but to show how little I think of statements that are little more than gems of ignorance. Such as pretending Komisarek is a future franchise player.
 

ZombieMatt

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You're always causing trouble, aren't you Vlad? :P

Of course though, as per usual when it comes to prospect analysis, you are most likely right. Mike Komisarek has been extremely over-hyped as to what his NHL production and role will be on these boards, and among the Montreal media in general. Mike Komisarek is a long, long, long cry from being a franchise player. I'm not even certain that he is going to be a good player.

A franchise defenceman is one who will not make mistakes, will be able to take control of a game and/or change the momentum with a single play, will be the player that leads the team, will contribute offensively, will be a perennial Norris candidate, and most importantly, won't do things to hurt his team.

I don't see Komisarek possessing any of those attributes. He has not demonstrated good hockey sense so far in his career in my opinion. He does make bad passes and turns the puck over. His puck-handling is substandard for a franchise defenceman. His vision is not good enough to rack up a ton of assists. He may get some goals on the PP, but that's if he gets PP minutes. His offensive skill set is not enough to pump Markov or Souray off the #1 power player I don't think (assuming the Habs go with a 2 defenceman system in the future). Komisarek does take some questionnable penalties, and is gathering a bit of a reputation of a cheap shot artist. He may be trying to be a nasty defenceman, but he's going about it the wrong way.

Komisarek will, in my opinion, evolve into a 2nd pairing NHL defenceman who is primarily defensive. He may get 5-10 goals a year, and 10-15 assists, but I don't see him as a 45+ point per year defenceman. He will not be a bad defenceman per se, he will be useful for his team, and almost certainly a top two pairing guy for his team, but I really don't see anything that indicates he is "FRANCHISE" material.

I see him having a role very similar to Bryan Allen with Vancouver, who will most likely pair with Jovanovski next season. I think Komisarek will be the stopper defenceman of a pairing with a strong offensive d-man.
 

st_roland

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Vlad The Impaler said:
No. That is only the point of the board for certain not-so desirable elements who post here. This place isn't about winning arguments.

The "point of these boards" I would hope is to spread correct information. Information based experience, observations, knowledge and on facts that are*processed* and *put into context*.

It's one thing to list a couple of stats or achievements. It's quite another to interpret it correctly using discernment. That is the difference between you and I. It doesn't really matter to me anymore how I do it. As I said there was a time where I would have been disturbed and unsettled by new guys who don't know what they are talking about and get their panties in a bunch.

I know how this is supposed to play out:

1-We'd go into a long argument process several pages long, like I've done in the past. Insults being thrown (like you've done so far)

2-You'd pull stupid arguments out of your ass, flash stats. Shout very loud like you know your stuff.

3-Observers would take sides. More insults being thrown back and forth

4-The thread gets locked, I get warned and possibly banned. You would as well. Some of my posts would be erased.

5-Eventually I'll be proven right but nobody will remember the argument in the first place.

Nothing gained at all for anybody. Instead, I'm just confident that people who know what I stand for and know me will understand my position. I am also confident some people are agreeing with you, unfortunately for them. All is well, both our opinions are there for people to look at.



Yes. I know how things are, unfortunately for you. If I didn't, I wouldn't state things in the first place because I don't like misinformation nor looking like a dimbulb a few months later. Simply following this simple philosophy and shutting my trap when I don't know better has enabled me to be correct more often than not in the years I've spent here.



The opposite. The smilies are not to show what an expert I am but to show how little I think of statements that are little more than gems of ignorance. Such as pretending Komisarek is a future franchise player.


:joker: Remind me of this post if I ever get into an argument Vlad
 

db23

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The first thing to note about Komisarek, obviously is his size. There is no 240 plus pound defenceman in the league that moves as well as he does. Whoever said he lacked mobility, hasn't watched him play. He is a very good skater, and covers the ice forwards, backwards, and laterally as well any Montreal defenceman. The second outstanding aspect to his game is the strength and accuracy of his passing, and his shot. He had the second hardest shot in the AHL skills competition a year ago to Kurtis Fostor who set a pro record with the speed of his shot. The slapshot is not even Komo's best shot. His wrist shot is harder than most player's slapshots, he has knocked a couple of gaolies backwards with wristers from the blueline this year. His passes are harder than many players shots.
He is very strong (and naturally so, he doesn't have to pump himself up with steroids, like some) and durable. He played 100 pro games a year ago, straight out of college, without missing a shift due to injury. Red Berenson and Gerry Hart, who played about 40 years in the NHL between them, have both said that he has the sort of potential that they had not seen before.

The down side is his lack of hockey experience which shows up in his puckhandling, postioning and decision making on the ice. He only took up the game when he was 12 years old, and that was in N.Y., so it is hardly surprising that he wold be less smooth than most. Bouwmeester, Hamhuis, Pitkanen and the like started when they were 4 years old. So they have 7 more years of playing the game in much stronger hockey cultures. For all of that, Komisarek had a much better rookie AHL season a year ago than Hamhuis who is 4 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter. More points in less games, better +-, All Star and All Rookie selections, etc., etc. But gradually he is closing the experience gap on those guys (who are the best of his contemporaries).

Last night, Komisarek played more minutes than Pitkanen or Bouwmeester, and Hamhuis was benched. So he is catching up, and it won't be long before he passes them. Once he puts all the raw tools together, he will be much more of a force than any of them. Look at Zdeno Chara. I watched them both play against each other last night, and Komisarek looks smoother and more mobile. It took Chara 4 or 5 years to put all the elements together at the NHL level, but I don't think it will take Mike nearly as long. He is much further advanced at the same age as Chara was.
 

thedjpd

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Vlad The Impaler said:
No. That is only the point of the board for certain not-so desirable elements who post here. This place isn't about winning arguments.

The "point of these boards" I would hope is to spread correct information. Information based experience, observations, knowledge and on facts that are*processed* and *put into context*.

It's one thing to list a couple of stats or achievements. It's quite another to interpret it correctly using discernment. That is the difference between you and I. It doesn't really matter to me anymore how I do it. As I said there was a time where I would have been disturbed and unsettled by new guys who don't know what they are talking about and get their panties in a bunch.

I know how this is supposed to play out:

1-We'd go into a long argument process several pages long, like I've done in the past. Insults being thrown (like you've done so far)

2-You'd pull stupid arguments out of your ass, flash stats. Shout very loud like you know your stuff.

3-Observers would take sides. More insults being thrown back and forth

4-The thread gets locked, I get warned and possibly banned. You would as well. Some of my posts would be erased.

5-Eventually I'll be proven right but nobody will remember the argument in the first place.

Nothing gained at all for anybody. Instead, I'm just confident that people who know what I stand for and know me will understand my position. I am also confident some people are agreeing with you, unfortunately for them. All is well, both our opinions are there for people to look at.



Yes. I know how things are, unfortunately for you. If I didn't, I wouldn't state things in the first place because I don't like misinformation nor looking like a dimbulb a few months later. Simply following this simple philosophy and shutting my trap when I don't know better has enabled me to be correct more often than not in the years I've spent here.



The opposite. The smilies are not to show what an expert I am but to show how little I think of statements that are little more than gems of ignorance. Such as pretending Komisarek is a future franchise player.

:lol:

Vlad = awesome.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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db23 said:
Last night, Komisarek played more minutes than Pitkanen or Bouwmeester, and Hamhuis was benched. So he is catching up, and it won't be long before he passes them. Once he puts all the raw tools together, he will be much more of a force than any of them.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

LetsGOJackets!!

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Take it easy on the rookie guys

Being a Jacket fan I appreciate any player with skill, we have spent a good amount of our first four years watching talent on other clubs, as initially we had none.

If Zherdev doesn't qualify for your franchise tag today, I say lets revisit this in a few years. Simply categorizing him as a very nice skilled 19 year old player works for me today.

With the slow development of goalies can you really project franchise player results on a Lehtinen or Fleury?

Pitkanen seems extremely solid with the puck/ Staal extremely skilled
 

db23

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Vlad The Impaler said:

Seems to be the sum total of your response ability.

But then, why should anyone take the word of Red Berenson or Gerry Hart when we have the unquestionable judgement of Vlad the Informer to rely on?
 

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db23 said:
The first thing to note about Komisarek, obviously is his size. There is no 240 plus pound defenceman in the league that moves as well as he does. Whoever said he lacked mobility, hasn't watched him play. He is a very good skater, and covers the ice forwards, backwards, and laterally as well any Montreal defenceman. The second outstanding aspect to his game is the strength and accuracy of his passing, and his shot. He had the second hardest shot in the AHL skills competition a year ago to Kurtis Fostor who set a pro record with the speed of his shot. The slapshot is not even Komo's best shot. His wrist shot is harder than most player's slapshots, he has knocked a couple of gaolies backwards with wristers from the blueline this year. His passes are harder than many players shots.
He is very strong (and naturally so, he doesn't have to pump himself up with steroids, like some) and durable. He played 100 pro games a year ago, straight out of college, without missing a shift due to injury. Red Berenson and Gerry Hart, who played about 40 years in the NHL between them, have both said that he has the sort of potential that they had not seen before.

The down side is his lack of hockey experience which shows up in his puckhandling, postioning and decision making on the ice. He only took up the game when he was 12 years old, and that was in N.Y., so it is hardly surprising that he wold be less smooth than most. Bouwmeester, Hamhuis, Pitkanen and the like started when they were 4 years old. So they have 7 more years of playing the game in much stronger hockey cultures. For all of that, Komisarek had a much better rookie AHL season a year ago than Hamhuis who is 4 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter. More points in less games, better +-, All Star and All Rookie selections, etc., etc. But gradually he is closing the experience gap on those guys (who are the best of his contemporaries).

Last night, Komisarek played more minutes than Pitkanen or Bouwmeester, and Hamhuis was benched. So he is catching up, and it won't be long before he passes them. Once he puts all the raw tools together, he will be much more of a force than any of them. Look at Zdeno Chara. I watched them both play against each other last night, and Komisarek looks smoother and more mobile. It took Chara 4 or 5 years to put all the elements together at the NHL level, but I don't think it will take Mike nearly as long. He is much further advanced at the same age as Chara was.


Thank you Mrs. Komisarek, tell your son we all say hi.
 
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