"The Lockout" and the "''05 Entry Draft" QUESTION...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cole Caulifield

Registered User
Apr 22, 2004
27,967
2,465
No CBA no draft

But if there's a CBA, the draft rules have to be included. I'd assume that scouts keep doing their job during the lockout. So if a new CBA is inked in august 05, a draft would be held soon after. It's only a matter of one day or two and hurrah, the season can start. No ?
 

flyercide

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
891
0
Philadelphia
Visit site
the entire draft class getting pushed back a year? it wouldnt be fair to the 05 class... just dont see it happening. u can repeat no cba = no draft all u want i dont buy it that they will let the entire 05 class sit out a year of eligibility.
 

dunwoody_joe

Registered User
Mar 16, 2002
1,581
0
atlanta
Visit site
flyercide said:
the entire draft class getting pushed back a year? it wouldnt be fair to the 05 class... just dont see it happening. u can repeat no cba = no draft all u want i dont buy it that they will let the entire 05 class sit out a year of eligibility.

I think the real issue is not what the owners and NHLPA want. To me, there is no valid agreement that should keep a kid from becoming an UFA when he is 18. I doubt the league could force those that turn 18 (while no CBA is in place) to wait to be draft whenever the new CBA is in place.

In fact, it is possible that any kid that turns 18 now (ie: since the expiration of the present CBA) might argue that he is UFA. I bet that we'll soon hear of such a case.

In fact, the NHLPA should use this issue as leverage: Crosby turns 18, declares UFA, and pushes his right to play wherever he can cut a deal for himself and does. Once the CBA is finally worked out, Crosby is available to the highest NHL bidder as befits his UFA status.

I'm certain lawyers would be delighted to argue it for him. And maybe the NHLPA would also be supportive--albeit indirectly.
 

triggrman

Where is Hipcheck85
Sponsor
May 8, 2002
31,627
7,348
Murfreesboro, TN
hfboards.com
With no CBA there's no agreement between the owners and the players union, so there's no free agents, there's no agreement period. A contract is part of the CBA, a draft is part of the CBA, free agency is part of the CBA.

You can't draft players without and agreement on how to draft them. You can't have free agents without and agreement that defines free agency.
 

dunwoody_joe

Registered User
Mar 16, 2002
1,581
0
atlanta
Visit site
xtra said:
The whole thing that when you turn 18 is bull because from what i know the NFL doesn't sign/draft players until they turn 22 or 23

Because their CBA agreement states that they are not draft eligible until then. In the absence of an agreement they would be technically free agents.
 

RandV

It's a wolf v2.0
Jul 29, 2003
26,831
4,924
Vancouver
Visit site
triggrman said:
With no CBA there's no agreement between the owners and the players union, so there's no free agents, there's no agreement period. A contract is part of the CBA, a draft is part of the CBA, free agency is part of the CBA.

You can't draft players without and agreement on how to draft them. You can't have free agents without and agreement that defines free agency.

Exactly. Really all the draft is is a rule set by the NHL on how teams will divide up new talent. A draft actually has to take place in order for a player to go undrafted. Then again, I'm thinking in terms of logic, which isn't exactly a strong point for laywers.
You'll notice how there was a big rush to get players signed before the CBA expired. That puts the player udner a binding contract according to the old CBA terms. With no current agreement between the NHL and NHLPA, I would think it is impossible for a player to be bound by a new contract to a team. I mean, you say that 18 year old players will have the right to be UFA's, but what is a UFA? It's a term/position defined by the NHL/NHLPA's CBA. Any would be draf eligable player is technically a free agent, they can choose whatever league they want to play in. But to get in they gotta play by that leagues rules, and the NHL doesnt have a single rule at the moment that a lawyer can argue on.
Now if the draft is missed, and a CBA is signed afterwards with draft eligability exactly as it was before, the laywers can rush in with their cases. The NHL has plenty lawyers of their own though, abd if the draft is missed I'm sure a clause will be written in on how to handle it as a special case.
 

me2

Go ahead foot
Jun 28, 2002
37,903
5,595
Make my day.
Reveille said:
If they did, the 2006 draft'd be horrible. A few good guys and the rest would be left over scrubs from 2005.


What is stopping the NHL teams from signing 15, 16 and 17 year old at the same time they sign Crosby? Even if they didn't play them until they were 18 they might get contracts for 6 or 7 years with the attraction of a big bonus for signing.

Anyway I suspect the NHL could put a clause in that all players under a certain that have not been through the draft must enter a draft when their non-cba contract is up. Crosby might be able to play out a contract but have to reenter to be drafted.
 
Last edited:

Kickabrat

WHAT - ME WORRY?
Jul 4, 2004
3,959
0
Ottawa
me2 said:
What is stopping the NHL teams from signing 15, 16 and 17 year old at the same time they sign Crosby? Even if they didn't play them until they were 18 they might get contracts for 6 or 7 years with the attraction of a big bonus for signing.

Anyway I suspect the NHL could put a clause in that all players under a certain that have not been through the draft must enter a draft when their non-cba contract is up. Crosby might be able to play out a contract but have to reenter to be drafted.
What is stopping a team from signing anybody is that the NHL has said that teams ARE NOT allowed to sign ANY players. (That includes ANYBODY). Since the NHL must approve a contract for it to be valid, there can therefore be NO SIGNING OF PLAYERS TILL THE NHL SAYS SO. And the NHL won't say so until there is a CBA or until they declare an impasse and impose a new CBA, which won't be called a CBA because there will be no "CB" in it. Then all these issues about who, what, where, when about the 2005 draft will be spelled out.

WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW?
 

bigd

Registered User
Jul 27, 2003
6,853
240
I was told by a reputable source that if there is no season this year, which is a very high percentage reality, then all the 2005 players will enter the 2006 draft. The 2006 draft players get the shaft. He also told me that the NHL has already bought a new league and if they can't come to terms with the union and they can't win their battle in court they will start up the new league with all their own rules in place. He said that the owners are prepared to stay the coarse however long that may be.
 

me2

Go ahead foot
Jun 28, 2002
37,903
5,595
Make my day.
Kickabrat said:
What is stopping a team from signing anybody is that the NHL has said that teams ARE NOT allowed to sign ANY players. (That includes ANYBODY). Since the NHL must approve a contract for it to be valid, there can therefore be NO SIGNING OF PLAYERS TILL THE NHL SAYS SO. And the NHL won't say so until there is a CBA or until they declare an impasse and impose a new CBA, which won't be called a CBA because there will be no "CB" in it. Then all these issues about who, what, where, when about the 2005 draft will be spelled out.

WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW?

Its not, pre-impasse where no one is being signed. But post-impasse its a whole new kettle of fish. That is the point. As soon as the teams start signing players in the post-impasse era these kids have a right to join in.

It remains to be seen if the NHL can force a draft through at the impasse. If not its fair game on every player/prospect or it ends up in court. I'd be very skeptical if they can. No one agreed to it, Crosby didn't join a union where these were the rules. He'll argue he's free to sign where ever he wants. The NHL is going to have a hard to proving it has the right to stop a Canadian from joining a Canadian club when no one gave it that permission.

The only way I can see it working is if all new contracts are signed with the NHL and not with the teams. The NHL then farms the players out. To be honest I think it might solve a ton of problems in the NHL. Clubs pay money to the NHL for players, NHL provides the teams with players as part of an agreement ie Teams pay 55% of gross revenue as a licence fees and it gets its players supplied. This allows for team building, revenue sharing, cost certainty.
 
Last edited:

Birko19

Registered User
Aug 13, 2002
11,189
3
Hamilton, Ont
Visit site
Reveille said:
If they did, the 2006 draft'd be horrible. A few good guys and the rest would be left over scrubs from 2005.

Huh? the 2005 draft is suppose to be as deep as 2003, and although 2006 seems to be too early, the class for that year seems to be decent so far, so imagine putting these 2 years together, you'd have a super draft and every single team in the league would at least get themselves a blue-chipper or 2.

Having said all that, I doubt the league would merge 2005-2006 together, if the CBA takes this long I think the league will have 2 drafts, one would be the 2005 class and the other would be the 2006, this is the only fair way, the only question is how does the order of teams work? now that would be a problem because if they'll do the same lottery based on the last season played it would't be fair to a lot of teams, and if they hold a lottery for the entire league it would be unfair for the weak teams if a powerhouse gets the top pick, yup, that would be a problem.
 

dunwoody_joe

Registered User
Mar 16, 2002
1,581
0
atlanta
Visit site
bigd said:
I was told by a reputable source that if there is no season this year, which is a very high percentage reality, then all the 2005 players will enter the 2006 draft. The 2006 draft players get the shaft. He also told me that the NHL has already bought a new league and if they can't come to terms with the union and they can't win their battle in court they will start up the new league with all their own rules in place. He said that the owners are prepared to stay the coarse however long that may be.

Seems silly.

New league with which players? If they want the present NHL players, they still have to deal with the the NHLPA and so will need a CBA for their new league. They are back in the same soup.

No benefit to starting a new league--that I can see.
 

Kickabrat

WHAT - ME WORRY?
Jul 4, 2004
3,959
0
Ottawa
me2 said:
That is the point. As soon as the teams start signing players in the post-impasse era these kids have a right to join in.
They have a right to join any freaking league they want, but if they want to join the NHL, they will have to join under the NHL rules, and those will contain all neccessary requirements about who is eligble for the draft, wether or not it is a CBA or imposed by the NHL.

Let me put it this way. If your argument was true, then if it can happen under the new CBA why did it not happen with the old CBA? Why weren't 18 year olds signing with any team they wanted? Why bother getting drafted and having to put up with all those silly barriers like entry level contracts? The answer is because there was a CBA in place and if a player wanted to play in the NHL he had to play by those rules. If he didn't like them, he could go play in Europe, Japan, or India until he's 21 and become a UFA. Same deal would apply post current lockout.
 

me2

Go ahead foot
Jun 28, 2002
37,903
5,595
Make my day.
Kickabrat said:
They have a right to join any freaking league they want, but if they want to join the NHL, they will have to join under the NHL rules, and those will contain all neccessary requirements about who is eligble for the draft, wether or not it is a CBA or imposed by the NHL.

If Toronto signs Crosby, it puts the owner imposed rules under massive scrutiny.


Let me put it this way. If your argument was true, then if it can happen under the new CBA why did it not happen with the old CBA? Why weren't 18 year olds signing with any team they wanted?

Because the controlling union agreed to it in the CBA. At the impasse the NHL is going to unilaterally implement its new rules. Some of these are going to end up in court. Does the NHL have the right to unilaterally restrict a prospect (say Crosby) from signing a deal with Toronto? If none of the teams employ him he might try for collusion. If Toronto does sign him against the NHLs wishes, will the NHLs position stand up under the laws that vary across Canada and the US? It might legal in one state but not another.

Why bother getting drafted and having to put up with all those silly barriers like entry level contracts? The answer is because there was a CBA in place and if a player wanted to play in the NHL he had to play by those rules. If he didn't like them, he could go play in Europe, Japan, or India until he's 21 and become a UFA. Same deal would apply post current lockout.

Again, that is union - employer CBA. You might find the courts are a little more generous to these. Does the legal NHL have the right to black ban workers between 18-19 years old?

Do you think McDonalds would be able unilaterally introduce a rule allowing to trade its employees to another franchise across the country without their permission? To force employees to nominate for a draft with a random franchise placement? To black ban 18 and 19 year employees? Without a union authorised agreement the NHL might find it has less control.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
me2 said:
If Toronto signs Crosby, it puts the owner imposed rules under massive scrutiny.l.

You can't sign anyone ...How can you every contract needs to be approved by the NHL ... If the NHL has locked out the players they certainly are not going to approve Contracts in the meantime..

I have read this whole thread and SO surprized by the posts ....

If seems really simple NO NHL ...NO DRAFT ... no different than NO NHL no WAIVER DRAFT etc..

but you guys are all focusing on the 18 year olds .... Here its the older players that 19-20 years that are the most affected by no draft..

If there is no season they most likely just combine the drafts together the following year ... and all they have to do is extend the draft rounds so instead of 9 rounds they go 18 so the same number of players are drafted if there was 2 drafts ....

Or there is no rule when the draft has to happen .... For all intensive purposes it could happen the day after a NEW CBA is signed ... it doesn't have to be in June it could be pushed back to September lets say ... it could happen the following year if this one is lost during Training camp for the other players ...

This Crosby has a right to earn a living Story is humerous ... So does Joe Sakic and Marty Brodeur and Jerome Iginla ... but they are not and either is Crosby even if he was drafted ..

but the thing I am most interested in is the players the where drafted like Mike Richards, Jeff Carter etc in the 2003 entry draft ...because come June 30th 2005 and no CBA ...What happens to them ..They can't re-enter a Draft that isn't or based on age become UFA ... That will be interesting ..
 

X-SHARKIE

Registered User
The NHL owners won't allow teams top prospects, Flyers Richards and Carter, Hawks with Seabrook, Sharks with Bernier, Fehr for Washington....ect. Just walk away from their teams. I'm sure once a new CBA is resolved that it well be done with some little thing to make sure that those players don't just walk free.

Remember Bettman wanted owners to be cautious and not spend much untill the CBA is done, so you do you really think he won't think of the owners and punish them for listening to him and waiting?

It ain't going to happen folks.
 

dunwoody_joe

Registered User
Mar 16, 2002
1,581
0
atlanta
Visit site
The Messenger said:
This Crosby has a right to earn a living Story is humerous ... So does Joe Sakic and Marty Brodeur and Jerome Iginla ... but they are not and either is Crosby even if he was drafted ..

Except that Sakic, etc have signed valid contracts and therefore are bound by the terms of those contracts to the NHL clubs.

Crosby has not yet signed a contract and is therefore free of such limitations.

Big difference.
 

me2

Go ahead foot
Jun 28, 2002
37,903
5,595
Make my day.
The Messenger said:
You can't sign anyone ...How can you every contract needs to be approved by the NHL ... If the NHL has locked out the players they certainly are not going to approve Contracts in the meantime..

Again I'll repeat it, this is post-impasse. :banghead: After the NHL imposes the impasse it/teams are going to have sign players and get these players to cross over the picket line, whether they be NHL, European, AHL or prospects. The whole of imposing the impasse is so they can restart the league without the NHLPA interferring too much. They won't have much of a league if they never sign any players after the impasse.


I have read this whole thread and SO surprized by the posts ....

If seems really simple NO NHL ...NO DRAFT ... no different than NO NHL no WAIVER DRAFT etc..

Post-impasse means the NHL is going to try to get started again. That is the point of the impasse.

but you guys are all focusing on the 18 year olds .... Here its the older players that 19-20 years that are the most affected by no draft..

If there is no season they most likely just combine the drafts together the following year ... and all they have to do is extend the draft rounds so instead of 9 rounds they go 18 so the same number of players are drafted if there was 2 drafts ....

Or there is no rule when the draft has to happen .... For all intensive purposes it could happen the day after a NEW CBA is signed ... it doesn't have to be in June it could be pushed back to September lets say ... it could happen the following year if this one is lost during Training camp for the other players ...

If the NHLs unilaterally imposed draft is not ruled illegal. Which it might be if the players challenge it.

This Crosby has a right to earn a living Story is humerous ... So does Joe Sakic and Marty Brodeur and Jerome Iginla ... but they are not and either is Crosby even if he was drafted .

If Igilna, Sakic and Brodeur choose to join the NHL after the impasse they can walk up and sign on. That is the point, they have that right. Crosby could have every right to demand that as well.

but the thing I am most interested in is the players the where drafted like Mike Richards, Jeff Carter etc in the 2003 entry draft ...because come June 30th 2005 and no CBA ...What happens to them ..They can't re-enter a Draft that isn't or based on age become UFA ... That will be interesting ..

Very interesting.
 

Puckhead

Registered User
Jun 13, 2004
703
0
Behind you!!!
pavel datsyuk said:
one theory is that all the players that were going to be drafted become UFA's...well, thats one idea i heard, and i'm sure the union would love that idea.

It's not only a theory, it is a fact. Any draft eligible player who goes undrafted, becomes an UFA. Therefore, no draft...Everyone is an UFA in 2005.

I have heard that what Bettman could try and do to get aroung this is hope that the CBA gets done in time to hold the 2005 draft before the 2006 draft. I know it sounds stupid, but the owners don't want Crosby and Brule going into UFA after trying to get salaries in order. The whole point to this lockout would blow up in their faces. Technically though it works. As long as they have the draft before the 2006 draft, it should work.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
X-SHARKIE said:
The NHL owners won't allow teams top prospects, Flyers Richards and Carter, Hawks with Seabrook, Sharks with Bernier, Fehr for Washington....ect. Just walk away from their teams. I'm sure once a new CBA is resolved that it well be done with some little thing to make sure that those players don't just walk free.

Remember Bettman wanted owners to be cautious and not spend much untill the CBA is done, so you do you really think he won't think of the owners and punish them for listening to him and waiting?

It ain't going to happen folks.

Don't be so sure ...

Some teams did not want to take that chance ... Phaneuf, Anthony Stewart, Cory Perry and Ryan Getzlaf all go signed the last minute and day to make sure they remained property .. No one knows for sure what will happen to the 2003 draft class ...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->