The Hockey News - Top 50 Players of All-Time By Franchise

Nick Hansen

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Sep 28, 2017
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Nothing in my book. Last year, NBCN ranked him #2 on their list of greatest captains of All Time. Not sure what makes him a better captain than everyone besides Beliveau.

I just don't understand where his reputation comes from. What makes him a better captain than Crosby for instance?
 

tempofound

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Oct 18, 2013
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Unfortunately, it's probably because he is less talented than Crosby that he is seen as a better captain.
 

VanIslander

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Neither Toews nor Crosby is top-10 in terms of captains in hockey history, heck, not even in terms of the NHL!

Ab-surd! :shakehead
 

The Panther

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Edmonton Oilers:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mark Messier
3. Jari Kurri
4. Paul Coffey
5. Grant Fuhr
6. Glenn Anderson
7. Kevin Lowe
8. Ryan Smyth
9. Esa Tikkanen
10. Doug Weight
Interesting. I think I would have Tikkanen and Weight easily above Lowe and Smyth. Smyth tends to a bit over-valued, I think, for reasons I don't understand.
 

quoipourquoi

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Is Bourque on the Avs list? He played only one season there and they retired his friggin' jersey!

Two seasons (of their first six in Denver), but really, it's Ray Bourque. His number should be hanging up in the Pepsi Center, my house, your house, etc. With all of the great talent they've had, the most iconic moment in the franchise's history is of Ray Bourque. Just on raw numbers, top-50 would be tough, but it would be hard not to have him in a way.
 

VanIslander

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Two seasons (of their first six in Denver)...
One season plus from March 6th of the previous season, so 1.1 seasons and two playoffs.

Love Bourque - and I have since he was a rookie - but scoffed when I heard about the Avs jersey retirement. You said it yourself, "Just on raw numbers, Top 50 would be tough."
 

seventieslord

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I guess I should admit that I'm responsible for the positions of a lot of players on every one of these lists. I was employed as a consultant throughout this project and wrote a long novel for each of the 30 teams between February and August, detailing who should move up and down. The vast majority of these lists (put together by a THN panel) were very good to begin with; it was often just a small handful of players who were out of place. I would say, broadly speaking, that I advocated for older players and to make sure defensemen got their due relative to forwards.

In addition, the part about the defunct teams was put together completely by me. I see in the final product the harsh reality of editing, but that's essentially me and those are my top-10 rankings. The final page is mostly based on an interview with me about ranking players from different eras.

Any questions? I do plan on answering previous posts in this thread to explain/justify rankings, or even to agree with you - the rankings didn't always go the way I hoped.
 

Canucks1096

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Feb 13, 2016
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For Vancouver

1 H Sedin
2 Bure
3 D Sedin
4 Naslund
5 Linden
6 Luongo
7 Smyl
8 Gradin
9 McLean
10 Kesler
 

reckoning

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I would say, broadly speaking, that I advocated for older players and to make sure defensemen got their due relative to forwards

The two things that tend to bother me about most mainstream media all-time lists are that pre-expansion players and defencemen aren't rated high enough; so thank you for making an effort to correct that.
 
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Jared Steier

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Oct 14, 2017
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I guess I should admit that I'm responsible for the positions of a lot of players on every one of these lists. I was employed as a consultant throughout this project and wrote a long novel for each of the 30 teams between February and August, detailing who should move up and down. The vast majority of these lists (put together by a THN panel) were very good to begin with; it was often just a small handful of players who were out of place. I would say, broadly speaking, that I advocated for older players and to make sure defensemen got their due relative to forwards.

In addition, the part about the defunct teams was put together completely by me. I see in the final product the harsh reality of editing, but that's essentially me and those are my top-10 rankings. The final page is mostly based on an interview with me about ranking players from different eras.

Any questions? I do plan on answering previous posts in this thread to explain/justify rankings, or even to agree with you - the rankings didn't always go the way I hoped.
My main problem with the list is Wendel Clark’s placing. How can you possible justify placing him at 40, with players like Curtis Joseph who played 5 years there, and Bryan McCabe, (Bryan mccabe are you kidding me?) above him, along with a bunch of mediocre players from the 60’s. Clark deserves atleast top 20 and probably closer to top ten. Also there was too heavy emphasis on the 60’s for the leafs. 10 players who played in the 60’s in the top 25? Team success does not equal individual player greatness and I think that is even more true when there are 6 teams in the league and lots is based on winning cups. Wendel Clark bleed blue for the leafs and seeing him at 40 is a disgrace.
 
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Johnny Engine

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I've got to admit, 40 strikes me as low for Clark without thinking too hard about it.
But the case for Clark being right up there with the very best Leafs (top 10? really?) falls apart pretty rapidly when you dig even a little bit. He played 13 seasons for the franchise, but only played 50 games in six of them. He really wasn't a top-5 winger in the game at any point (McCabe might have been top 5 at his position for a year or two, Joseph definitely peaked in that range). We all have this mental picture of what Clark looked like playing for the Leafs, scoring 30 goals and fighting all comers, but there were just so many years where one just had to assume he would be doing that if he wasn't injured. And it's not as if he really won anything with the Leafs that a McCabe or a Joseph didn't.
When I put together a list of the greatest Leafs for my own personal enjoyment, I'd say Clark tends to land around 25-30. I'd have to read the THN issue (will get to it), or have a solid in-depth conversation with 70s to see whether I can buy that extra 10-15 spot drop. But I doubt I could possibly see it as "disgraceful". Nobody in the hockey media is ignorant to what Clark meant to Leafs fans, and viewing him in a more lukewarm light than others probably means their thinking more about his place in history, not less.
 

seventieslord

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Wondering what Toews has accomplished that Kane hasn't. Being born in Canada?

I, too, would prefer Kane over Toews, and a number of other guys over Toews as well, but in this case I was outnumbered.

No Denis Savard in the top 10 Hawks?

There was universal agreement on this one. Look at that top-10. All solid top-100 players of all-time (or are likely to be one day), and all career hawks, except for one (Chelios) played most of his noteworthy years there. Savard doesn't have anything on these guys - or Tony Esposito or Doug Bentley... he's right where he belongs!

Honestly, the samples you provided look very good. Much better than what is usually expected from the mainstream media. I am pleasantly surprised at Gardiner making it into the top 10, and over Esposito to boot. However, Toews is massively overrated. I wouldn't have him before Keith at 9th. He'd be somewhere around Savard.

Thank you!

I think I initially wanted to see Toews just ahead of Savard, so 12th. But there hasn't been much winning in this franchise's history and he's been a part of what now constitutes half of it, so they really wanted to recognize that.

Did they have the sense to put Lidstrom at #2 for Detroit? And were both Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the Top 10?

Yes, we were unanimous about Lidstrom at #2.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are caught in a numbers game. I actually had them 15 and 16 myself. Wherever they ended up, I would have preferred them to be back to back, but this is how they shook out.

I told them this in my notes: I think the Ullman/Abel/Delvecchio/Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Howe tier is difficult to rank. All two-way players to varying degrees, every single one of them a C/LW. The best career player (Ullman) and the one with the best peak (Abel) are the two with the shortest tenures - I ended up with them 9, 10, 11, 15, 16, 17 with three defenders in the pack between. I think people can reasonably disagree about those six.
Benn and Hartsburg? :headache:

I'd rather honor Calder winner and franchise highest individual scoring season holder (114 pts) Bobby Smith, the franchise's 1st round 1st overall pick who led the North Stars on its first-ever Stanley Cup run in 1981 and is top-5 in franchise career scoring.

030b0e7d6632a985ced565a2e50d7c3d--bobby-stars-hockey.jpg


Choosing Benn screams of "We gotta include a guy from today for that part of the fanbase unfamiliar with the franchise's history." Benn has 3 great years and one good playoff postseason. I guess him being a 4-year captain right now helps.

I'd rather honor for the franchise the 7-year captain heart-and-soul guy Brenden Morrow, who has led the guys through four playoffs with winning series, including two conference final runs. Heck, Morrow has more career goals as a Star than Benn does!

136004703.0.jpg


Hartsburg isn't top-10 in games played or points. He did captain the club for one and a bit years, then when Bellows struggled with the pressure of captaincy (I recall well), Hartsburg took over the captaincy for two more seasons and the bit of two more. He was touted early in his career and went to three all-star games three of his first four seasons in Minnesota. He played just 570 games for the team and had 413 points, a decent passer who led the team in blueline scoring in each of the six full seasons he played. He was 7th in North Stars scoring in their 1981 cup run, though his 15 points in 19 games were significant, one more than any other blueliner in town.

I would say Choosing Benn screams "we recognize that this guy has the two best offensive seasons ever posted in franchise history and another that would be in the top-10".

Stars with multiple seasons in the top-20 in scoring:

Modano 7
Benn 4 (including the two best ever)
Seguin 4
Ciccarelli 3
Richards 2
Broten 2
Smith 2
Hextall 2

He's already played longer than Smith with the team, and has almost the same number of points in a 30% lower scoring era. Three postseason all-star teams. So I see no problem with Benn 8th at all. (do you still??)

Hartsburg shouldn't be in the top-10 in points for the franchise; he's a defenseman. He's the kind of player good enough to make it on peak value. Forget point scoring stats - he was their runaway #1 defenseman the whole time he was there. Most of that time he was considered just shy of the elite guys (which explains his multiple all-star games and lack of postseason honours). He's very fondly remembered by fans.

I'm actually kinda surprised you'd have a forward with 554 points over a defenseman with 413 in the same number of games. Not that they're really that far apart, mind you - they're #10 and 11.

Hatcher was my biggest concern - I actually wanted to see him ahead of the three forwards ahead of him. Here's what I said:

Derian Hatcher deserves better than this. THN ranked him 7, 8, 6, 8, 7, 12, 18, 8 among defensemen in the NHL during his prime, which is an outstanding stretch. You could say he was probably about the 8th best defenseman of the 90s. Could you, with a straight face, say Bellows was about the 8th best forward of the 80s? What about top-20 even? Considering he was only a top-20 scorer once, I think not. Ciccarelli was better than Bellows, but where would he have ranked among league forwards when he was 6th, 10th, 20th and 25th in league scoring as a North star? I don't think this is close to Hatcher, plus he was not captain like Hatcher was for a long time, had much less team success, and is three seasons short in longevity. Lehtinen was an elite role player, but still just a role player. You astutely recognized him for his skills and abilities, placing him on the LW and RW lists almost every year for a decade: 16th, 10th, 18th, 12th, 18th, 16th, 7th, 4th, 6th, 12th. Keep in mind that these winger lists are at least twice as easy to get on as the defensemen lists, so his four top-10s are noteworthy, if I'm being generous, and that does not compare to the level of eliteness assigned to Hatcher almost annually for 8 straight years. Hatcher should go right up behind Zubov and ahead of these forwards.
 

seventieslord

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Interesting note, Jaromir Jagr made the list for 4 separate clubs.

Pittsburgh - 3
Washington - 30
New York - 38
Florida - 23

Whitney made 5!

Is he twenty-third on FLA's list based on performance or because because he's ******** Jaaaaarrrrooooommmmiiirrrrrr Jaaaaaagggggggrrrrrr?

Yes, he's one of the GOAT, but he played for FLA for a little over two years as a 40+ year old.

I know FLA hasn't had an abundance of great players... but it's surprising he's in their top 25.

I can only imagine who the 90-100th players for teams like FLA and CLB are.

Yeah, it's really just a symptom of the longevity of the franchise. He wouldn't make it onto any list for a franchise with 30+ years history based on two seasons.

Well, I think it speaks more towards the quality of players that have played for the organization and I mean no disrespect to fans of the franchise. I mean..Bill Lindsay is ranked at 20, and guys like Rostislav Olesz, Peter Worrell, Mike Weaver and Gregory Campbell cracked the top 50. :laugh:

yeah, you'll want to just skip right over Columbus and Winnipeg... those ones were painful to do.

Not dissing jagr, but i can't see him as 2 for pens. Don't see any way you place him above Crosby or malkin

Crosby, no. Malkin? Sure, why not? both mainly offensive players, and one who has outscored the other badly.

Hartsburg is a top 3 defenseman for the franchise. I get the questioning his top 10 placement given the amount of hockey he missed, but given just how good he was, and the fact that there really isn't anyone behind him with too strong a case, I have to like the placement.

Thank you.

Honestly, when i think of how beloved he is by the fanbase, I think mostly of you.


Glad to hear Goldsworthy is place fairly high. I'm not sure who I'd move in order to slide him up, but I wouldn't complain if he was placed a bit higher. The guy was great for us and needs to be recognized.

I campaigned for him!

Hope you've got a copy.

Benn is also the only Art Ross winner in the team's history is already 9th in team scoring, and will likely pass Morrow this month. I don't see why it'd be a case of having to get a new guy on there, I think it's a case of him clearly being a top 10 talent to play for the team, even if he doesn't have the years and playoffs yet.

and he does have the years! 585 games entering this season isn't exactly a small amount.

Barrasso and Letang stick out for the Pens. Seems like Francis is always the guy who gets put 5th there. And I had a discussion about Letang as potentially the top blueliner for the Pens on the main boards recently, but it seems odd to see him there and Coffey and Murphy out of the top 10. Though I suppose they could be just outside.

I think Murphy only peaked about as high as Letang did. Coffey peaked higher, at least by all-star voting, but man, that +/-, for a guy who scored that many points on a strong team... it's weird, man. Anyway, he and Murphy were both 28 minute players but for only half the time that Letang has been a pen, and though his career average is just 23 minutes now, he played his developing years there and has become a top-10 defenseman in the league for much of the last 6 seasons. In those 6 seasons he has a Pens' career very comparable to them - 385 games, 25.2 minutes a game, 57 playoff games at 27 minutes on average, and a smythe worthy run. His 2007-2011 seasons, including a cup run and finals run, are just gravy on that. He belongs ahead. (Coffey was 13th, Murphy 16th)

we can disagree on where he belongs among all players, but I think Barrasso still deserves the top goalie spot - after all, he was a two-time vezina finalist as a Pen. Fleury never approached that. He has no significant longevity advantage, either. Barrasso certainly had his ups and downs, but at least his weren't in four consecutive aprils!
 

seventieslord

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Coffey is 13, Murphy 16. Thought it was interesting they have Ron Stackhouse the Pens 2nd best defenseman at 12.

Stackhouse is the 2nd longest-serving D-man in team history after Orpik, and was a huge all-situation player for them, averaging 26 minutes a game over that time. Coffey and Murphy were better for the Pens, but for literally half as long.

Longevity and peak, as always, is a balancing act.

Where's Hart trophy runner-up Lionel Hitchman, who captained them to their first four ever regular season top seeds and first Stanley Cup? His #3 was the first jersey to be retired by Boston and only the second ever in the NHL behind the sympathetic retirement of severely injured Ace Bailey's in Toronto.
HitchmanBos.jpg


Where's HHOF-inducted Fern Flaman, the three-time Norris trophy finalist and best Bruin blueliner of the Original-Six era?
fern-flaman-1959-32.jpg


And Chara is 10th among all Bruins at every position???

Is he ahead of Johnny Bucyk? Milt Schmidt? Tiny Thompson? I hope not.

Chara at 10th is just fine. He's of course not ahead of Bucyk or Schmidt. Thompson? Sure, why not? 2nd/3rd best defenseman of a generation versus 4th best goalie of a generation 90 years ago (depending on how you define generations, of course). I'm ok with that.

Hitchman and Flaman I helped. I am ok with their rankings, the Bruins have been around for 90 years and have had a ton of great defensemen. I got Hitchman moved up 13 spots to 36th.

If Kane keeps up his play for a bit longer I think you can argue he should be number #1 for Chicago when he retires.

yeah. no.

Interesting list. Really not crazy bad at first glance.

thanks! :laugh:

I find it odd that they did 50 for each team. The talent would have to get pretty thin there near the end :P

oh, believe me, it does. at least on the newer teams.

No offense to Keon (he was a winner and obviously a good player), but please tell me he's not number one for Toronto.

Apps or Conacher would be my choice.

I agree on this. It's Apps pretty easily for me, actually, and we were unanimous on that. Keon gets ranked too highly and I think a lot of it has to do with the Leafs sucking up to him so he'll associate with the franchise more than he used to.

That Toronto list is much better than the "official" one on nhl.com last year. That one didn't even have Conacher in the top 10.

well thanks!

Refreshing good lists, even if there of course will be some minor (and probably a few large...) things to argue about. One in here for me. I really think Zetterberg has been a greater player for the Red Wings than Datsyuk. Even with Datsuyks more shining peak, where I think Z was underrated as a defensive player as well - Z was more often asigned with the heaviest duty of the two. Most remerable Crosby in the Cup finals of course.

Thanks!

(and I'd have liked to see those two back to back if I could have helped it)

Fleury surpassed Barrasso as the best goalie in franchise history.

I really don't think so.

Serious congrats for putting Charlie Gardiner ahead of Tony Esposito.

Thanks.

That didn't even take any convincing!

Not quite what I'd have (I'd probably swap Lalonde with Dryden; I'd probably swap Sundin with F. Mahovlich, and put Matthews ahead of Syl Apps), but VERY, VERY good.

Matthews... hahaha

FTR, this is the only list I had nothing to do with. They went with Ken Campbell's Habs Heroes book from a few years back. It's a pretty solid list, though not perfect (Cournoyer over Joliat!) I did offer my feedback on a few modern players who deserved to get bumped up for their performance since the book came out (Koivu, Pacioretty, Price, Subban).

i wonder how many guys made a franchise’s top 50 for a one-season stint.

obvious recent example would be pronger in edmonton.

struggling to think if other examples. stillman in tampa? any deadeline rentals make a top 50 list?

I think just Pronger.

Of course Hull was a better player just on raw talent, but as for who meant more to the Hawks? As long as Kane doesn't fall off a cliff I think you could very easily say him.

He should end up 1st in goals, assists and points for both regular season and playoffs, should play his entire career in Chicago.

For as great as Hull was he still only brought Chicago 1 cup in a 6 team league.. Kane already has done it three times while being the main force behind it (Or I guess 1a/1b with Keith)

Kane could also very well win another Hart and Art Ross again as well, if he keeps up his game it will be alot closer then many would like to admit.

Winning is the most important thing, it's what every team wants to do. But that doesn't mean it should be the only thing we look at for players. Kane has been much more fortunate in that regard, but the gap in skill and production is frankly enormous at this point, and that says a lot about Hull, because Kane is a very, very talented and productive player with a highly impressive track record already. But Bobby Hull is the 5th-6th best player of all-time in most people's books. Kane is perhaps the 5th-6th best player of his generation (crosby, ovechkin, malkin, some would say a couple of keith or toews or lundqvist or doughty or karlsson)

Is Bourque on the Avs list? He played only one season there and they retired his friggin' jersey!

Bourque did indeed make it at #48. The snippet: "You knew we weren't going to leave him off". Keep in mind he played nearly two full seasons worth of games counting the playoffs, for a franchise that hasn't been highly illustrious and has only existed 37 seasons. The 150 or so games he played were at a higher level than anyone before or since (only Blake comes close).
 

feffan

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For Vancouver

1 H Sedin
2 Bure
3 D Sedin
4 Naslund
5 Linden
6 Luongo
7 Smyl
8 Gradin
9 McLean
10 Kesler

Good list again! Could also see Linden moving up behind Bure, based on how he is seen in that franchise. And D Sedin at the same time probably has an argument for 2nd place. Actually. H Sedin, Naslund and Bure also all have a big or small argument for being their greatest player. But Naslund could also be behind D Sedin, as he is. And Linden could be argued greatest Canuck, but not best. Tricky top 5.

And not sure about Kesler, but I´m probably underrating him. But to me he didn´t have as many top seasons as a Canuck as his rumour was. Just from Swefinland I think Lumme and Ohlund could be ahead. And Bertuzzis peak makes an argument. Would also love to get Tanti in to the top 10. But I can´t make that argument myself :D

Thanks!

(and I'd have liked to see those two back to back if I could have helped it)

Agreed on that! They are so close that having players between them is hard and a bit unfair. Even if not same team, kind of like I always like to put Sakic and Yzerman after one another.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
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Good list again! Could also see Linden moving up behind Bure, based on how he is seen in that franchise. And D Sedin at the same time probably has an argument for 2nd place. Actually. H Sedin, Naslund and Bure also all have a big or small argument for being their greatest player. But Naslund could also be behind D Sedin, as he is. And Linden could be argued greatest Canuck, but not best. Tricky top 5.

And not sure about Kesler, but I´m probably underrating him. But to me he didn´t have as many top seasons as a Canuck as his rumour was. Just from Swefinland I think Lumme and Ohlund could be ahead. And Bertuzzis peak makes an argument. Would also love to get Tanti in to the top 10. But I can´t make that argument myself :D



Agreed on that! They are so close that having players between them is hard and a bit unfair. Even if not same team, kind of like I always like to put Sakic and Yzerman after one another.

more on this late, but that's not the vancouver list... that was HIS vancouver list :)
 

Michael Farkas

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Re: Fleury vs Barrasso

I did a Penguins-only ATD back in late 2012. Fleury was close then, but it was still Barrasso by a nose. Since then, Fleury added four above average (at worst) seasons and half of a Conn Smythe worthy playoffs. That ought to have been enough to get him over Barrasso by now. If nothing else, his back-to-back seasons (plus the 2017 half playoffs) of being not insignificantly in the middle of the pack in All-Star Team voting is a string of three noteworthy years (on this scale) that Barrasso never put together. Barrasso had had two...and a half? Maybe? Really good playoffs. Fleury can reasonably cancel Barrasso's 1992 run with his 2008 run (honestly, I think I'd take Fleury's '08 over a lot of performances in that surrounding era league-wide). The '91 run with his '09 run. And then Fleury's 2017 was better than anything else Barrasso put together. Including being on the wrong end up two pretty historic game 7 upset losses.
Barrasso had two higher regular season peaks...years and years apart...and most of that time was without Mario and adjustments were made to protect Barrasso. Not that all goaltenders don't rely on good defensive play to post numbers - they do in almost every case of course - but we see Barrasso's impact before, during and after when his teams weren't buttoned up. He was just a standard-issue goalie.

Feel free to check out my Barrasso profile where I detail a little more about him and the teams surrounding him here: http://www.letsgopens.com/scripts/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60027&start=175#p2254616

Four, five years ago, in the prime of Fleury-panic - when he had that uncoached series vs. Philadelphia and that similar debacle against the Isles, yeah, Barrasso was ahead of him and Fleury was probably adding a bit of distance on his behalf...he rebounded, he matured his game, and he registered a number of noteworthy seasons (again, on this scale) in a row that sufficiently moved him past Barrasso, fairly comfortably I might add - in my usually-humble opinion...
 

GlitchMarner

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He really wasn't a top-5 winger in the game at any point (McCabe might have been top 5 at his position for a year or two, Joseph definitely peaked in that range).

With all due respect to Clark, the only season he was remotely close to being a top five winger was 1993-1994. Aside from that season, I doubt he was a top 15 winger at any point. Even in in '94, objectively, Shanahan, Andreychuk (Clark's teammate), Roberts, Graves, Bure, Recchi, Jagr and Hull all had better seasons.

Clark brought a lot more than scoring, but still, he really shouldn't be considered a top 20 Leaf of all-time. I'd rank him higher than 40th, though.

As for McCabe: He's arguably the best defenseman the Leafs have had this century, and while that's not saying that much, he did have a high peak. He placed fourth in Norris voting in 2004. He was very good until his injury in early 2006. He was a beast in the first half of 2006 and the Leafs didn't win a single game he missed that season. After returning from his injury, he was never quite the same, but he still finished with 68 points that season.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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As for McCabe: He's arguably the best defenseman the Leafs have had this century, and while that's not saying that much, he did have a high peak. He placed fourth in Norris voting in 2004. He was very good until his injury in early 2006. He was a beast in the first half of 2006 and the Leafs didn't win a single game he missed that season. After returning from his injury, he was never quite the same, but he still finished with 68 points that season.

i don’t follow the leaves closely so would love to hear if i am wrong, but is there really an argument for mccabe over kaberle?
 

GlitchMarner

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To answer the question: They were pretty close from '02-'07 and then McCabe really fell off after 2007. However, McCabe had the best year by far out of the two in 2004. I liked Kaberle as well personally, but he was somewhat of a whipping boy back when McCabe was at his best. In actuality, he was a good albeit flawed defenseman just like McCabe, and neither was really a true number one over a sustained period of time. Toward the end of his tenure with the Leafs, McCabe was a lightning for criticism himself and at that point, Kaberle may have been more popular.

Obviously Kabby played for the team longer. Actually, I would rank Kaberle higher on an all-time list merely because he had more longevity with the team and McCabe really fell off toward the end of his stint with the team. But again, McCabe's 2004 was definitely better than any of Kaberle's seasons and McCabe had better raw statistics that season than Niedermayer (the Norris winner) and Chris Pronger.


Oh, and I'd rank both of them much higher than Dion Phaneuf... not surprisingly.
 
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