The Great Dale Weise Debate (& other ex-Hawks) volume 3

[LDF]

It's so easy to make the argument that any of Rutta, Forsling, Kempny, Oesterle, or Murphy can do anything TVR could do, and I'd argue 4 out of 5 of those can do it better, with a few doing it MUCH better.(We haven't seen a large enough sample size with Oesterle to make the determination, yet). But it's possible all 5 of those guys can do anything TVR can do, and do most things better, when all is said and done. I mean... two of the four likely end up as top 4 guys, and an argument can be made for at least 3 of them potentially becoming top 4 guys moving forward...

Losing TVR wasn't an issue. Was never concerned about it in any way whatsoever.

Losing Kruger, though I don't think is nearly as big of a deal as you make it out to be, is still a much bigger deal than losing TVR, AINEC. Him and his deployment due to his defensive acumen did free up other lines to create match-up issues.

overall the lost of Kruger can be somewhat replaced.... maybe not by a single player. however he was at best a line 4+ kind of a player.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

People absolutely do want Darling to fail. Just like some people absolutely wanted Crow to implode. Not everyone who preferred one to the other is guilty of what I'm saying.

But being proven correct on the internet is very important to some people.

I wish Darling success. However, I understand the urge to throw it in some posters faces when he struggles given some posters constant bitching about Crow, which obviously was often unwarranted.

As I've grown older, I've realized I'm not as much as an adult, as my age would lead one to believe, lol.

 

[ChiHawks10]

overall the lost of Kruger can be somewhat replaced.... maybe not by a single player. however he was at best a line 4+ kind of a player.

I know that. But if you have a very good defensive 4th line center, and two very responsible defensive 4th line wingers... you trot that line out against the top line of other teams, and watch them squirm. Hawks did it for years with Kruger's line.

Then your top 2 lines are free to feast on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines of others teams, regularly.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I wish Darling success. However, I understand the urge to throw it in some posters faces when he struggles given some posters constant *****ing about Crow, which obviously was often unwarranted.

As I've grown older, I've realized I'm not as much as an adult, as my age would lead one to believe, lol.

I'm the same. I wish him success. But there were quite a few people calling for the trade of Crow and to keep Darling... and like you said, it's nice to throw it back into peoples' faces that Darls is struggling through the first quarter of the season, while Crow is a front-runner for the Vezina. Funny how quickly Crawford made some people disappear on these boards this season, huh?

 

[LDF]

I know that. But if you have a very good defensive 4th line center, and two very responsible defensive 4th line wingers... you trot that line out against the top line of other teams, and watch them squirm. Hawks did it for years with Kruger's line.

Then your top 2 lines are free to feast on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines of others teams, regularly.

the coverage is there for the team to line up ..... but it is up to Q and his game plan. if the team gets the top 2 lines going, and line 4 doing its job, this team can surprise many.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I'm the same. I wish him success. But there were quite a few people calling for the trade of Crow and to keep Darling... and like you said, it's nice to throw it back into peoples' faces that Darls is struggling through the first quarter of the season, while Crow is a front-runner for the Vezina. Funny how quickly Crawford made some people disappear on these boards this season, huh?

No question.

And to be fair, there were several posters who favored Darling who made reasonable arguments for trading Crow and signing Darling. I'm not talking about them. I disagreed with them, but they could have an actual conversation about the pros and cons of either side of the issue.

I don't really care all that much if my predictions are right or wrong. I have no doubt I have said things that in hindsight look stupid and I'm sure that will happen again going forward. There's no harm in having an opinion that turns out to be a bad one. I do enjoy seeing the "trolly" posters looking dumb though.

 

[LordKOTL]

this, i agree. as i said last yr, there is not enuf time to see Darling as a starter let alone a team in contention.

further, i wanted Darling as the Starting Goalie during the playoff. i thought Craw was still looking shaky .

I thought Crawford looked merely okay (not world beating but certainly not the worst player we iced that series--that dubious honor goes to all of Campbell, Oduya, Toews and Keith)...but I don't think Darling could have salvaged anything. Unlike Games 1, 3, & 4 in 2015 vs. Nashville, Darling would have had no O to lean on to actually score goals, as opposed to just no D to help him, which was a theme on both series...and there's no guarantee Darling would have been the wall he was in Game 1, series 1, 2015, either.

I think we would have been bounced in craptacular fashion either way...even if Darling was beyond excellent, at best we get bounced 0-1 or 1-2 every game...just my opinion, though. Nashville played a great game and looked like a playoff-level hockey team. Our boys looked like we were part of the dance floor that the refs were running

 

[LDF]

I thought Crawford looked merely okay (not world beating but certainly not the worst player we iced that series--that dubious honor goes to all of Campbell, Oduya, Toews and Keith)...but I don't think Darling could have salvaged anything. Unlike Games 1, 3, & 4 in 2015 vs. Nashville, Darling would have had no O to lean on to actually score goals, as opposed to just no D to help him, which was a theme on both series...and there's no guarantee Darling would have been the wall he was in Game 1, series 1, 2015, either.

I think we would have been bounced in craptacular fashion either way...even if Darling was beyond excellent, at best we get bounced 0-1 or 1-2 every game...just my opinion, though. Nashville played a great game and looked like a playoff-level hockey team. Our boys looked like we were part of the dance floor that the refs were running

that is why Darl performance has me puzzled. i really thought he would be head and shoulders kind of performance...... even thou the team might still loose. something like the Vegas team and the hype they were generating a while back.

 

[BobbyJet]

I'm the same. I wish him success. But there were quite a few people calling for the trade of Crow and to keep Darling... and like you said, it's nice to throw it back into peoples' faces that Darls is struggling through the first quarter of the season, while Crow is a front-runner for the Vezina. Funny how quickly Crawford made some people disappear on these boards this season, huh?

I don't think anyone is saying CC isn't playing well to begin this season. But it's November. Hopefully, we'll see the same Crawford right into the Spring. There's also the concern that Q will overplay him.

 

[LDF]

I don't think anyone is saying CC isn't playing well to begin this season. But it's November. Hopefully, we'll see the same Crawford right into the Spring. There's also the concern that Q will overplay him.

to be honest, i have no qualms of Q trying to over play him. he has mention he thrive with a huge workload.

it was when Q had to pull back his work load in favor of Darl.

 

[BobbyJet]

Another illustration tonight. CBJ get a ten-bell chance on the first play of the game then score a minute later with no chance for Scott. Those breakdowns just keep coming for Kanes. They're good on offense at times when they are allowed to play finesse hockey, however. Usually that style works okay in the RS for talented teams but generally fails miserably in the PO's.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Its getting ulgy for Darling after another poor start and loss vs Kings two nights ago. Canes dominated OT but then Kings got shot on Scott that he gave up bad rebound on and it ended up in back of Canes net

7-8-6 with 2.70 GAA and .900 sv pct

It feels/seems like he is giving up a bakc breaking or awful goal every night when he plays

His level of play cant be blamed on D and system Bobby

D/System are not responsible for the awful goals he is allowing and the poor rebounds nightly

 

[BK]

Its getting ulgy for Darling after another poor start and loss vs Kings two nights ago. Canes dominated OT but then Kings got shot on Scott that he gave up bad rebound on and it ended up in back of Canes net

7-8-6 with 2.70 GAA and .900 sv pct

It feels/seems like he is giving up a bakc breaking or awful goal every night when he plays

His level of play cant be blamed on D and system Bobby

D/System are not responsible for the awful goals he is allowing and the poor rebounds nightly

Early in the season many of the goals he has been hung out to dry but of late he has struggled. Darling looks out of it mentally and he is doing things physically that he never did in Chicago.

Every goalie that comes to Chicago seems to do well for the most part of late (Except Turco) so maybe we need to give more credit to Waite.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Both Waite's

Hawks have had strong coaching when it comes to goaltending entire time under Q

I don't blame coaches for Huet's weak mental game nor do I blame coaches for fact Turco was already on decline when he came to Chicago and was in twilight of his career

 

[BK]

Both Waite's

Hawks have had strong coaching when it comes to goaltending entire time under Q

I don't blame coaches for Huet's weak mental game nor do I blame coaches for fact Turco was already on decline when he came to Chicago and was in twilight of his career

Agreed.

 

[JaegerDice]

Another factor is that he's a starting goalie.

Other teams start putting together a book on you when you start. Little doubt opposing coaching staffs have gone through his 75 starts in Chicago, plus all his starts in Carolina and recognized patterns that can be exploited.

This happens to sophmore starters all the time. Darling through two seasons as a backup provided at least as many starts as your average first year starter. This is his sophmore slump season imo.

I think he and his coaching staff will address the issues other teams are picking apart and he'll become the league average goalie he can be.

That said, I agree the Waite brothers deserve a ton of credit for their work.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Another factor is that he's a starting goalie.

Other teams start putting together a book on you when you start. Little doubt opposing coaching staffs have gone through his 75 starts in Chicago, plus all his starts in Carolina and recognized patterns that can be exploited.

This happens to sophmore starters all the time. Darling through two seasons as a backup provided at least as many starts as your average first year starter. This is his sophmore slump season imo.

I think he and his coaching staff will address the issues other teams are picking apart and he'll become the league average goalie he can be.

That said, I agree the Waite brothers deserve a ton of credit for their work.

I thought goal scoring is about luck.

And why can't we ever get a book and use it to our advantage? Edzo always pointing out going to school, isn't this what coaching is for?

 

[JaegerDice]

I thought goal scoring is about luck.

And why can't we ever get a book and use it to our advantage? Edzo always pointing out going to school, isn't this what coaching is for?

Goal scoring is heavily luck influenced, absolutely. We see this in shooting percentage fluctuations over the course of a season, let alone a career.

That doesn't mean it's not tactics influenced too.

Like poker, there are steps you can take to put the odds in your favor, but at the end of the day, you're still at the mercy of chance.

 

[LordKOTL]

Another factor is that he's a starting goalie.

Other teams start putting together a book on you when you start. Little doubt opposing coaching staffs have gone through his 75 starts in Chicago, plus all his starts in Carolina and recognized patterns that can be exploited.

This happens to sophmore starters all the time. Darling through two seasons as a backup provided at least as many starts as your average first year starter. This is his sophmore slump season imo.

I think he and his coaching staff will address the issues other teams are picking apart and he'll become the league average goalie he can be.

That said, I agree the Waite brothers deserve a ton of credit for their work.

Crawford's .902 in 2012 does lead to this; it is the major outlier season of his career. Granted, I though Scott Darling's soph slump was going to be 2016, where he posted an average .915. It might be this year.

I do think it's way to early to write him off, though, career-wise.

 

[ClydeLee]

Both this season for Darling and 11-12 for Bros were their first starting seasons though. I always put that more as the weight on Crawford over sophomore slump ideas.

Hell even talking about a "Book" or just a scouting report sheet. Darling in Laz's book credits Jimmy Waite's scouting tips about the Preds for what had him be aware to make that legend making right leg pad save in that game 1 in 15. So they use those tips and maybe a lesser goalie coach isn't helping out Darling as well as Waite could.

 

[Kawzee]

Having watched the Canes a little bit this year, I honestly feel like Kruger is just going through the motions. This was literally the only way he was going to score -




TVR continues to be solid. 4 points & +5 in his last 4 games. Great goal today as well -

 

[LordKOTL]

Both this season for Darling and 11-12 for Bros were their first starting seasons though. I always put that more as the weight on Crawford over sophomore slump ideas.

Hell even talking about a "Book" or just a scouting report sheet. Darling in Laz's book credits Jimmy Waite's scouting tips about the Preds for what had him be aware to make that legend making right leg pad save in that game 1 in 15. So they use those tips and maybe a lesser goalie coach isn't helping out Darling as well as Waite could.

Technically, Crawford wrested the starter's position from Turco in 2011 (much like Niemi from Huet the season prior), and Darling saw much more icetime as a backup prior to this season that Crawford did by the start of the 2011 season. Case in point; Crawford between 2005 and the start of 2011 played 8 total games. Darling, prior to the start of this season (2014-start of 2018) played 75 games. Hell, even if you throw in Crawford's 57 games "as a backup" in 2011, Scotty still saw more icetime before taking the starter's mantle.

So, in my opinion, Crawford's 1st starting season was 2010-2011, and there was very little book on him prior. Meanwhile Darling had a lot more made of him prior to the start of this season. It wasn't until 2012 that Crawford's tendencies and whatnot were fleshed out by the rest of the league, while there was ample time to get book on Darling prior to the start of this year.

Now, your arguments about Waite are rock solid though . I think he's gone a fantastic job and maybe there is something to him being better than whomever the 'canes have, but I think a lot of Scotty's bad year this year thus far and Crawford's excellent year this year thus far have to go to the netminders proper. But I do fell that we have to see where Darling goes after this year to say whether or not it's a fluke this year (much like Crawford's 2012 year).

 

[LDF]

Technically, Crawford wrested the starter's position from Turco in 2011 (much like Niemi from Huet the season prior), and Darling saw much more icetime as a backup prior to this season that Crawford did by the start of the 2011 season. Case in point; Crawford between 2005 and the start of 2011 played 8 total games. Darling, prior to the start of this season (2014-start of 2018) played 75 games. Hell, even if you throw in Crawford's 57 games "as a backup" in 2011, Scotty still saw more icetime before taking the starter's mantle.

So, in my opinion, Crawford's 1st starting season was 2010-2011, and there was very little book on him prior. Meanwhile Darling had a lot more made of him prior to the start of this season. It wasn't until 2012 that Crawford's tendencies and whatnot were fleshed out by the rest of the league, while there was ample time to get book on Darling prior to the start of this year.

Now, your arguments about Waite are rock solid though . I think he's gone a fantastic job and maybe there is something to him being better than whomever the 'canes have, but I think a lot of Scotty's bad year this year thus far and Crawford's excellent year this year thus far have to go to the netminders proper. But I do fell that we have to see where Darling goes after this year to say whether or not it's a fluke this year (much like Crawford's 2012 year).

ref Darling last yr with the hawks, i wonder if anyone can also say that the defensive scheme that the hawks have done, has anything to contribute to his success ??

 

[LordKOTL]

ref Darling last yr with the hawks, i wonder if anyone can also say that the defensive scheme that the hawks have done, has anything to contribute to his success ??

What defensive scheme? Crawford carried the 'hawks defense in 2015, 2016, and so far in 2018. Darling carried them in 2017.

The 'hawks D's last real hurrah for the regular season was 2014, and in the playoffs post game 6 in round 1 in 2015...after Darling was chased. Since then they been bottom-3rd to bottom-6th of the league.

 

[LDF]

What defensive scheme? Crawford carried the 'hawks defense in 2015, 2016, and so far in 2018. Darling carried them in 2017.

The 'hawks D's last real hurrah for the regular season was 2014, and in the playoffs post game 6 in round 1 in 2015...after Darling was chased. Since then they been bottom-3rd to bottom-6th of the league.

actually i was really trying to be positive here. i was actually talking about the 2017 campaign and yes, no matter how one will look at it, there is still a game plan in effect.