The Goaltender Home Page Official HELP!!! Thread (1984-85 edition)

[Doctor No]

Thank you! I was just about to bump this thread, and hadn't noticed the Liut/Wamsley stat.

 

[Doctor No]

OPEN ISSUES AS OF JANUARY 20, 2008:

MAJOR ISSUES (regular season):
October 24, 1984 (Vancouver 3, at Chicago 9): Richard Brodeur and Frank Caprice both played (Brodeur allowed the five five goals, Caprice allowed the last four). How many shots did each face and when did the switch occur (at about 36 minutes into the game)?
November 15, 1984 (Edmonton 2, at Calgary 6): At what point did Grant Fuhr replace Andy Moog?
December 15, 1984 (Quebec 3, at New Jersey 8): Mario Gosselin replaced Richard Sevigny in this game. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss?
December 19, 1984 (Chicago 3, at Buffalo 6): Murray Bannerman and Warren Skorodenski both played. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss?
February 14, 1985 (Toronto 3, at St. Louis 5): Ken Wregget replaced Rick St. Croix at 8:17 of the second period, allowing the first four goals. Wregget allowed the fifth goal. How many shots did each face?
February 17, 1985 (Detroit 4, at Chicago 4): Bannerman and Skorodenski both played. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss (25 saves on 29 shots total for both)?

MINOR ISSUES (regular season):
November 7, 1984 (Buffalo 9, Minnesota 6): Don Beaupre ENG?
November 14, 1984 (NY Rangers 4, at Chicago 6): John Vanbiesbrouck ENG?
November 24, 1984 (New Jersey 5, at Pittsburgh 3): Denis Herron ENG?
December 5, 1984 (St. Louis 4, at Pittsburgh 7): Mike Liut ENG?
December 5, 1984 (NY Islanders 4, at Edmonton 6): Billy Smith ENG?
December 7, 1984 (Minnesota 3, at Edmonton 6): Rollie Melanson ENG? (possibly two ENG?)
December 22, 1984 (NY Rangers 5, at New Jersey 3): Glenn Resch ENG?
December 26, 1984 (NY Rangers 2, at Detroit 5): John Vanbiesbrouck ENG?
January 13, 1985 (Detroit 2, at Quebec 6): Eddie Mio ENG?
January 19, 1985 (Buffalo 2, at Hartford 0): Greg Millen ENG?
January 27, 1985 (NY Islanders 2, at Washington 5): Kelly Hrudey ENG?
February 6, 1985 (Buffalo 3, at Minnesota 1): Don Beaupre ENG?
February 7, 1985 (Pittsburgh 3, at New Jersey 6): Roberto Romano ENG?
February 19, 1985 (Montreal 5, at St. Louis 2): Mike Liut ENG?
February 20, 1985 (Calgary 3, at Pittsburgh 6): Reggie Lemelin ENG?
February 22, 1985 (Quebec 3, at Edmonton 6): Mario Gosselin ENG?
February 23, 1985 (Pittsburgh 3, at Minnesota 1): Don Beaupre ENG?
March 24, 1985 (NY Islanders 5, at NY Rangers 2): Glen Hanlon ENG?

MINOR ISSUES (playoffs):
April 14, 1985 (Quebec 4, at Buffalo 7): Dan Bouchard ENG?

ET CETERA:
February 12, 1985: At what point during the All-Star Game did Lindbergh and Fuhr replace Barrasso and Moog?

 

[Doctor No]

Another open issue: I currently have Dan Bouchard with 14 losses (one more than he should have); coincidentally, Mario Gosselin is missing one.

These are the fourteen games I currently have assigned to Bouchard:

10/19 at Buffalo
10/23 vs. Montreal
10/27 vs. NY Rangers
11/10 vs. Hartford
11/13 vs. Los Angeles
11/27 vs. Washington
12/18 vs. Washington
12/27 vs. Montreal
1/8 vs. Edmonton
1/27 at Buffalo
2/2 at Detroit
2/14 at Philadelphia
3/8 at Winnipeg
4/6 at Hartford

Which belongs to Gosselin? I know that he appeared in the 11/27 and 2/2 games.

 

[Doctor No]

Another open issue: I currently have Glen Hanlon with 21 losses (one more than he should have); coincidentally, John Vanbiesbrouck is missing one.

These are the twenty-one games I currently have assigned to Hanlon:
10/14 vs. Minnesota
10/30 at NY Islanders
11/11 vs. Los Angeles
11/17 at NY Islanders
11/25 vs. Quebec
11/28 vs. Washington
12/3 vs. Philadelphia
12/7 vs. Pittsburgh
12/15 at Washington
12/16 vs. Washington
12/29 at Montreal
1/19 at Washington
2/2 at Edmonton
2/5 at Los Angeles
2/21 vs. Hartford
2/25 vs. Winnipeg
3/2 at Pittsburgh
3/11 vs. Chicago
3/21 at Philadelphia
3/24 vs. NY Islanders
4/7 at Chicago

Which of these belongs to Vanbiesbrouck? I know that he appears in the 11/17, 12/16, 12/29 and 2/25 games.

 

[Doctor No]

I've also discovered another error in the official National Hockey League totals for this season (in addition to the Lindbergh/Froese loss totals, and the Rick St. Croix missing non-decision).

Adding up the individual 1984-85 season totals for Mike Liut, Greg Millen, Ed Staniowski and Steve Weeks gives you a record of 29-41-9.

The Hartford Whalers had a record of 30-41-9. Therefore, one loss is missing from the official totals.

This loss belongs to Steve Weeks as best I can tell (also giving him an extra game played).

 

[Doctor No]

Which of these belongs to Vanbiesbrouck? I know that he appears in the 11/17, 12/16, 12/29 and 2/25 games.

Found this one - it was the Febrary 25 game against Winnipeg. Hanlon allowed the first five goals (in 21:16), while Vanbiesbrouck allowed the final seven in a 12-5 loss.

 

[Doctor No]

October 24, 1984 (Vancouver 3, at Chicago 9): Richard Brodeur and Frank Caprice both played (Brodeur allowed the five five goals, Caprice allowed the last four). How many shots did each face and when did the switch occur (at about 36 minutes into the game)?

It turns out that (I believe) Brodeur allowed the first six goals of the game, on 25 shots, playing 35:40. I pieced this together using the Toronto Star weekly totals. Confirmation on this from someone in Vancouver or Chicago would be swell, though.

 

[Doctor No]

MAJOR ISSUES (regular season):November 15, 1984 (Edmonton 2, at Calgary 6): At what point did Grant Fuhr replace Andy Moog?

I believe that Andy Moog played the first 20:13 of the game, allowing four goals on 21 shots. Grant Fuhr played the final 39:47, allowing two goals on 26 shots.

 

[Doctor No]

December 15, 1984 (Quebec 3, at New Jersey 8): Mario Gosselin replaced Richard Sevigny in this game. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss?

Gosselin played the first 45:50, allowing 7 goals on 27 shots (and getting the loss). Sevigny played 14:10, allowing one goal on 6 shots.

 

[reckoning]

December 19, 1984 (Chicago 3, at Buffalo 6): Murray Bannerman and Warren Skorodenski both played. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss?

The writeup for this game in the Globe & Mail said that "Buffalo chased Bannerman from the net less than 11 minutes into the 1st period." Looking at the summary, Housely scored Buffalo's 4th goal at 10:43 in the 1st, so I'd assume that was when the switch occurred. That would give Bannerman 4 goals against and the loss. Can't tell how many shots there were at the point, but Buffalo had 11 shots in the period (28 in the game).

November 14, 1984 (NY Rangers 4, at Chicago 6): John Vanbiesbrouck ENG?

Empty net goal

December 22, 1984 (NY Rangers 5, at New Jersey 3): Glenn Resch ENG?

Empty net goal

 

[Doctor No]

Excellent - thank you!

On the Bannerman/Skorodenski situation, 10:43 makes the weekly numbers the Toronto Star publishes add up. Based on those, this game should have had 30 shots, but my best guess is that Bannerman allowed the first four on nine shots, and Skodorenski allowed the last two on nineteen shots.

Both of the other goals seemed like empty-net goals, but I couldn't be sure.

 

[Doctor No]

December 5, 1984 (NY Islanders 4, at Edmonton 6): Billy Smith ENG?

Not an empty-net goal!

 

[Murphy7]

Here's what I have from The Sporting News 1985-86 guide for Hartford's 84-85 stats:
Liut 5-7-1
Millen 16-22-6
Staniowski 0-0-0
Weeks 9-12-2
Total 30-41-9

 

[Murphy7]

December 15, 1984 (Quebec 3, at New Jersey 8): Mario Gosselin replaced Richard Sevigny in this game. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss?

Doc,
The Devils' 85-86 media guide says Sevigny entered at 6:23 of the third period and gave up two goals. Gosselin gave up six goals and took the loss.

 

[Murphy7]

November 24, 1984 (New Jersey 5, at Pittsburgh 3): Denis Herron ENG?

Devils media guide says the final was 5-2 and the Michel Dion was the goalie for Pittsburgh. No ENG in the book. Wow, a big game ... drew 5,034. Herron appeared in four other games between the teams and Roberto Romano was in for two games.

 

[Murphy7]

February 7, 1985 (Pittsburgh 3, at New Jersey 6): Roberto Romano ENG?

Devils media guide does not account for an ENG.

 

[Murphy7]

Doc,
Since I keep saying the Devils media guide does not show an ENG, let me clarify. It clearly shows the Devils' ENGs allowed. But since I keep saying no to the Penguins, and I don't have a book in the library to cross-check with, here's the total ENGs for Pittsburgh goalies in 1984-85:
Herron 2, Dion 1, Romano 1, Ford 0.
The only other thing I can tell you for sure at this time of night is that one of Herron's two ENGs came against the Flyers.

 

[Murphy7]

MINOR ISSUES (regular season):
Here's the ENG totals for the goalies you have in "minor issues." I don't know if you can use this as a way to backtrack to your answers or if it can serve as a double-check. All info from TSN hockey guide.

Don Beaupre 3
Mike Liut none -- takes care of December 5, 1984 (St. Louis 4, at Pittsburgh 7)
Billy Smith 1
Rollie Melanson 1 -- don't know when for his one, but takes care of the possibly two on December 7, 1984 (Minnesota 3, at Edmonton 6): Rollie Melanson ENG? (possibly two ENG?)
John Vanbiesbrouck 3
Eddie Mio 1
Greg Millen 1 with Hartford, 3 total.
Kelly Hrudey 2
Don Beaupre 3
Mike Liut none again -- takes care of February 19, 1985 (Montreal 5, at St. Louis 2): Mike Liut ENG?
Reggie Lemelin 3
Mario Gosselin none -- takes care of February 22, 1985 (Quebec 3, at Edmonton 6): Mario Gosselin ENG?
Glen Hanlon 1

Playoffs
Dan Bouchard played one game, giving up seven goals, none ENGs -- takes care of April 14, 1985 (Quebec 4, at Buffalo 7): Dan Bouchard ENG?

 

[Doctor No]

Excellent - thanks for all!

I'm doing something similar with the ENG results from the Toronto Star's weekly summaries - it helps in case it's hard to tell from other sources.

 

[Doctor No]

And...it's done! With two exceptions which I will list below.

All of the 1984-85 logs are on the site as of now - thanks to all for your help! Hopefully they will be of some use to somebody someday.

This season marks the debut of Chris Clifford, Cleon Daskalakis, Darren Eliot, Darren Jensen, Hannu Kamppuri, Darren Pang, Daryl Reaugh, Patrick Roy, and Mike Sands, Don Sylvestri and Mike Zanier. It also marks the final seasons for Marco Baron, Michel Dion, Brian Ford, John Garrett, Rick Heinz, Hannu Kamppuri, Ron Low, Rick St. Croix, Ed Staniowski, Don Sylvestri and Mike Zanier.

Two final notes:
If anyone can prove that Corrado Micalef played in Detroit's game at Washington on December 9, 1984, please let me know.

And...I have Dan Bouchard with 30 games played and a W/L/T record of
12-14-4. I also have Mario Gosselin with 35 games played and a W/L/T record
of 19-10-3. Both of these records match the end-of-season totals from the
Toronto Star.

However, the official sources of today list Bouchard with one fewer game
played, and gives one of his losses to Gosselin. Can anyone explain what
happened?

These are the fourteen losses I currently have assigned to Bouchard:
10/19 at Buffalo
10/23 vs. Montreal
10/27 vs. NY Rangers
11/10 vs. Hartford
11/13 vs. Los Angeles
11/27 vs. Washington (Gosselin also played)
12/18 vs. Washington
12/27 vs. Montreal
1/8 vs. Edmonton
1/27 at Buffalo
2/2 at Detroit (Gosselin also played)
2/14 at Philadelphia
3/8 at Winnipeg
4/6 at Hartford

Which one was later given to Gosselin? Any help from those smarter and/or
with more resources than I would be greatly appreciated.

 

[reckoning]

Two final notes:
If anyone can prove that Corrado Micalef played in Detroit's game at Washington on December 9, 1984, please let me know.

This is strange. Going by the differentials in the weekly summaries before and after that week, Micalef played 20 minutes, faced 12 shots and gave up no goals. Yet the summaries for all the games that week only list Greg Stefan, plus there's no periods where the Wings gave up 12 shots and zero goals.

One thing to watch out for if you're comparing the weekly summaries: I've tried tallying save percentages for a couple of seasons when the stat wasn't kept and there would be the odd time when a game's minutes and goals would be charged against the wrong goalie in that weeks summaries, then it would be corrected the following week. I know its not much help, but it may be something to look for. Perhaps Micalef's 20 min. came from the week before, or maybe the Bouchard/Gosselin mix-up occurred in the final week.

Then again, it's entirely possible that an error was made by the NHL's statistics department and nobody noticed it.

 

[reckoning]

And...I have Dan Bouchard with 30 games played and a W/L/T record of
12-14-4. I also have Mario Gosselin with 35 games played and a W/L/T record
of 19-10-3. Both of these records match the end-of-season totals from the
Toronto Star.

However, the official sources of today list Bouchard with one fewer game
played, and gives one of his losses to Gosselin. Can anyone explain what
happened?

These are the fourteen losses I currently have assigned to Bouchard:
10/19 at Buffalo
10/23 vs. Montreal
10/27 vs. NY Rangers
11/10 vs. Hartford
11/13 vs. Los Angeles
11/27 vs. Washington (Gosselin also played)
12/18 vs. Washington
12/27 vs. Montreal
1/8 vs. Edmonton
1/27 at Buffalo
2/2 at Detroit (Gosselin also played)
2/14 at Philadelphia
3/8 at Winnipeg
4/6 at Hartford

Which one was later given to Gosselin? Any help from those smarter and/or
with more resources than I would be greatly appreciated.

The difference that was taken away from Bouchard's totals was 2 goals and 25 shots. The only game that matches is the 4/6 game against Hartford (2-1 loss). . Bouchard is listed as the goalie in the boxscore. I checked out the news archive search on Google, as sometimes they will give you a sentence from the writeup. Doing a search on "Bouchard" for Apr.7 it said "Paul Fenton sent the puck around the net to Ferraro, who powered a short wrist shot past Dan Bouchard"

I don't know why it was changed to Gosselin

Another thing I noticed looking this up. The 1985-86 NHL Guide takes the 60 min, 2 goals, 25 shots and the loss from Bouchard's totals and puts them in Gosselin's. However, the 1998 edition of Total Hockey only puts the loss and the shots in Gosselin's totals. The minutes and the goals are missing, same with the 2003 edition of Total NHL. So according to the official NHL sources, there's 60 minutes and 2 goals for Quebec's goalies that are simply unaccounted for today.

It just makes you wonder if possibly there was an occasion where a contract bonus was or wasn't paid out due to a clerical error at the NHL's statistics department.

 

[Murphy7]

Doc,

It gets better ...
QUEBEC 41-30-9, 275 GA
Total Hockey has:
Bouchard 12-13-4, 29 gm, 101 ga, 1738 min
Gosselin 19-11-3, 36 gm, 109 ga, 1960 min
Sevigny 10-6-2, 20 gm, 62 ga, 1104 min
Totals 41-30-9, 85 gm, 272 ga, 4802 min

The Hockey News Hockey Almanac has:
Bouchard 12-13-4, 29 gm, 101 ga, 1738 min
Gosselin 19-10-3, 35 gm, 109 ga, 1960 min
Sevigny 10-6-2, 20 gm, 62 ga, 1104 min
Totals 41-29-9, 84 gm, 272 ga, 4802 min

The Sporting News 85-86 Hockey Guide has:
No records with goalies
Bouchard 29 gm, 101 ga, 1738 min
Gosselin 36 gm, 111 ga, 2020 min
Sevigny 20 gm, 62 ga, 1104 min
Totals 274 ga + 1 eng = 275 ga, 4862 min.

The TSN numbers are from the stats section. Oon the page with the Nords' roster, it says:
No records with goalies
Bouchard 103 ga, 1798 min
Gosselin 109 ga, 1960 min
Sevigny 62 ga, 1104 min
Totals 274 ga + 1 eng = 275 ga, 4862 min.

The last two are in the same book, published in 1985. That's amazing. Looks like we need a Nords fan on this one.

 

[Murphy7]

I ran through Google news and found 13 losses for Danny Bouchard in 84-85. The only goalie who came up for the Dec. 18 loss to the Caps (4-1) was Sevigny, but it said he was being loaned to the Canadian National team. There was no mention of who was in net. I will try to check it tomorrow when I go to work.

 

[Murphy7]

Since I'll have Dec. 84 in the queue, I'll look for Micalef as well. On the Web, it says Stefan played on the 9th and lost, then Micalef played the 10th and won (I think it was against Minnesota)