The Goaltender Home Page Official HELP!!! Thread (1984-85 edition)

[reckoning]

April 14, 1985 (Washington 4, at NY Islanders 6): Al Jensen ENG?

The Globe & Mail writeup on the game says that Bossy's goal late in the third was an empty-netter.

(Trivia time: on 7 November, Mike Bossy was leading the NHL in scoring with 17 goals and 34 points in 13 games).

I do remember Bossy's quick start that year. A lot of people were thinking there may actually be competition for Gretzky in the scoring race that year. A month later: forget about it.

The problem I have with researching old summaries is that you stumble on so many interesting articles and bits of trivia that you get sidetracked reading them and subsequently end up falling behind on finding what you were originally researching. It's fun though.

 

[PecaFan]

For Canucks questions, email [email protected] and detail what you do, and ask them to forward your questions or put you in touch with the Fax Man.

He has every single game sheet for every Canuck game, every single game program, dozens if not hundreds of jerseys, you name it. Didn't miss a single game for the first 33 years or so, until the Messier era soured him so much he stopped supporting the team.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I decided to do some more research using the Globe & Mail. Unfortunately it provided less information than I had hoped/expected (it only confirmed 1 EN goal out of ten games that I looked at). The Globe seemed really promising when I did research on the Canadiens this afternoon but, after this, I think I'll try to find another source. (I'm listing games with no details so that nobody else wastes time trying to look for these games in the Globe & Mail).

October 16, 1984 (New Jersey 4, at NY Islanders 6):Hannu Kamppuri ENG?

Yes, it was an empty-net goal. "...Brent Sutter's empty-net goal with 18 seconds left was enough to offset goals rookie Kirk Muller and Doug Sulliman". (Globe and Mail, October 17, 1984, page S4).

October 24, 1984 (Boston 4, at St. Louis 1):Rick Wamsley ENG?

Not sure. The score sheet shows that Ken Linseman scored a short-handed goal with 1:13 remaining in the third. No details are provided in the write-up.

November 7, 1984 (Buffalo 9, Minnesota 6): Don Beaupre ENG?

Peterson scored with 1:16 left in the third. There are no details in the write-up about this being an ENG.

November 14, 1984 (NY Rangers 4, at Chicago 6): John Vanbiesbrouck ENG?

Hmm. Again, we have no substantial details in the Globe & Mail. Troy Murray scored with 54 seconds left in the third. Again, no details about this being EN or not.

(Trivia note: the paper shows a list of all players with hat tricks thus far. A month into the season, Bossy already had two 4-goal games!)

November 24, 1984 (New Jersey 5, at Pittsburgh 3): Denis Herron ENG?

No details again.

December 5, 1984 (St. Louis 4, at Pittsburgh 7): Mike Liut ENG?

Mike Bullard scored 4 goals this game, including the final goal with 1:11 remaining. The write-up says that "Bullard tied the record for goals in a game when he scored his fourth with 1:11 left". I would think that since they specifically mentioned Bullard's 4th goal, and didn't give any indication that it's an EN goal, we cam assume it was scored against Liut.

(Interestingly, an article states that "Bossy is convinced that, in less than four years, he'll be ready for retirement". Three years later, Bossy played his last game in the NHL).

December 5, 1984 (NY Islanders 4, at Edmonton 6): Billy Smith ENG?

This must have been a late game. There's no scoresheet in the paper on the 6th or 7th. Again, no details.

(Colossal trade! Dave Maloney and Chris Renaud for Steve Patrick and Jim Weimer.)

December 7, 1984 (Minnesota 3, at Edmonton 6): Rollie Melanson ENG? (possibly two ENG?)

Kurri scored at 18:29 of the third period, then Corrol scored at 19:23. No details about ENG status though.

(Gretzky now has 990 points in 419 career games).

December 22, 1984 (NY Rangers 5, at New Jersey 3): Glenn Resch ENG?

Patrick scored at 19:47. Again, there was no write-up.

December 26, 1984 (NY Rangers 2, at Detroit 5): John Vanbiesbrouck ENG?

Gare scored with 5 seconds to go. There's a brief write-up but no details about EN or not.

====

Based on the timing of the goals, we can reasonably conclude that all of them were probably empty-netters. It depends on how high a standard of proof you require.

 

[BM67]

The stats for St. Croix are not an error from Total Hockey, or any later source. They are the same in my 1986 THN Yearbook and the 85-86 TSN Hockey Register. That doesn't mean that they are not wrong of course.

 

[Doctor No]

Interesting follow-up on the St. Croix issue; here's an exerpt of an e-mail I just sent to the Hockey History e-mail list. Another member noted that the total Toronto goals allowed were off by two in the official totals, and asked for St. Croix's game-by-game records as I have them.

-------------------

Here is what I have on a game-by-game basis:

12/12/84 (6-3 vs. PHI) 31 saves, 3 GA, WIN
12/15/84 (2-5 vs. PIT) 19 saves, 5 GA, LOSS
12/17/84 (2-3 vs. STL) 23 saves, 3 GA, LOSS
12/21/84 (3-4 at CHI) 18 saves, 4 GA, LOSS
12/22/84 (6-4 vs. BOS) 22 saves, 4 GA, WIN
12/26/84 (0-6 at BUF) 41 saves, 6 GA, LOSS
12/27/84 (1-4 at NJ ) 30 saves, 4 GA, LOSS
12/29/84 (4-5 at CHI) 26 saves, 5 GA, LOSS
01/07/84 (4-7 vs. HFD) 24 saves, 7 GA, LOSS
01/09/85 (3-5 vs. BOS) 2 saves, 2 GA, ND, 2:47 TOI
02/14/85 (3-5 at STL) 13 saves, 4 GA, LOSS, 28:17 TOI
04/03/85 (7-9 at MIN) 15 saves, 9 GA, LOSS

As an aside, that last game might be in the top five worst statistical performances by an NHL goaltender I've seen in my life. And I can't guarantee it, but I believe that the Leafs had already wrapped up the Wendel Clark sweepstakes by April 3rd, so it's not as though they were trying to lose. Hmmm. End aside.

That gives me the following 1984-85 season totals for St. Croix (and differences from the official NHL totals where applicable):

12 games played (NHL total is eleven)
2 wins
9 losses
0 ties
1 no-decision (NHL total is zero)
631:04 TOI (NHL total is 628 minutes)
264 saves (NHL total is 260)
56 goals against (NHL total is 54)

I don't post empty-net goals on my site, but Ralph has him with zero empty-net goals, which matches my estimates.

If we assume that the NHL is missing the 1/9/85 appearance, then that would result in my totals matching the NHL's exactly with the exception of two saves.

Anyhow, in my opinion we've nailed this thing! St. Croix's 1984-85 totals are clearly incorrect.

So what do we do now? Obviously I can make the changes to my website, but (as much as I'd like it to be) the NHL doesn't consider my page as part of the canon. Is there an official point of contact for the league? And (as importantly), would they care?

 

[Doctor No]

The Globe & Mail writeup on the game says that Bossy's goal late in the third was an empty-netter.

Thanks!

You raise a great point about one of the problems with researching these things - and any of you who play Goaltender Trivia will definitely notice an increase in the prevalence of 1984-85 era questions in the next season.

 

[Doctor No]

Based on the timing of the goals, we can reasonably conclude that all of them were probably empty-netters. It depends on how high a standard of proof you require.

Excellent - thank you!

And you're right; if I were worried about matching 100 percent of empty-net goals or 100 percent of shots faced, I would have had two or three strokes at this point in my young life. Some things just aren't going to match exactly, and my motto is "Do your best, and don't worry."

But as many of these that I can confirm, then it becomes easier to match against a player's season total of empty-net goals and assign them by the principle of maximum likelihood. Good times!

 

[Doctor No]

For Canucks questions, email [email protected] and detail what you do, and ask them to forward your questions or put you in touch with the Fax Man.

He has every single game sheet for every Canuck game, every single game program, dozens if not hundreds of jerseys, you name it. Didn't miss a single game for the first 33 years or so, until the Messier era soured him so much he stopped supporting the team.

I'll check them out! My roomate in college was an intern for CKNW, so I always remember them fondly.

Weird that the he stopped supporting the team at about the same time as I did (when Keenan took over, and McLean and Linden were both dealt. I hate Mike Keenan, and not just because he does things like switching goalies three times in a single game to make this sort of research a real pain in the ass. ) Okay, maybe it's not so weird.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

Interesting follow-up on the St. Croix issue; here's an exerpt of an e-mail I just sent to the Hockey History e-mail list. Another member noted that the total Toronto goals allowed were off by two in the official totals, and asked for St. Croix's game-by-game records as I have them.

-------------------

Here is what I have on a game-by-game basis:

12/12/84 (6-3 vs. PHI) 31 saves, 3 GA, WIN
12/15/84 (2-5 vs. PIT) 19 saves, 5 GA, LOSS
12/17/84 (2-3 vs. STL) 23 saves, 3 GA, LOSS
12/21/84 (3-4 at CHI) 18 saves, 4 GA, LOSS
12/22/84 (6-4 vs. BOS) 22 saves, 4 GA, WIN
12/26/84 (0-6 at BUF) 41 saves, 6 GA, LOSS
12/27/84 (1-4 at NJ ) 30 saves, 4 GA, LOSS
12/29/84 (4-5 at CHI) 26 saves, 5 GA, LOSS
01/07/84 (4-7 vs. HFD) 24 saves, 7 GA, LOSS
01/09/85 (3-5 vs. BOS) 2 saves, 2 GA, ND, 2:47 TOI
02/14/85 (3-5 at STL) 13 saves, 4 GA, LOSS, 28:17 TOI
04/03/85 (7-9 at MIN) 15 saves, 9 GA, LOSS

As an aside, that last game might be in the top five worst statistical performances by an NHL goaltender I've seen in my life. And I can't guarantee it, but I believe that the Leafs had already wrapped up the Wendel Clark sweepstakes by April 3rd, so it's not as though they were trying to lose. Hmmm. End aside.

That gives me the following 1984-85 season totals for St. Croix (and differences from the official NHL totals where applicable):

12 games played (NHL total is eleven)
2 wins
9 losses
0 ties
1 no-decision (NHL total is zero)
631:04 TOI (NHL total is 628 minutes)
264 saves (NHL total is 260)
56 goals against (NHL total is 54)

I don't post empty-net goals on my site, but Ralph has him with zero empty-net goals, which matches my estimates.

If we assume that the NHL is missing the 1/9/85 appearance, then that would result in my totals matching the NHL's exactly with the exception of two saves.

Anyhow, in my opinion we've nailed this thing! St. Croix's 1984-85 totals are clearly incorrect.

So what do we do now? Obviously I can make the changes to my website, but (as much as I'd like it to be) the NHL doesn't consider my page as part of the canon. Is there an official point of contact for the league? And (as importantly), would they care?

Are you familiar with Elias Sports Bureau? Maybe you can contact them. I am not sure how much they deal with the general public but they may offer advice or even be interested. Their website appears to have minimal information but perhaps you can search around for more info. Here is their page on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Sports_Bureau

 

[Doctor No]

December 19, 1984 (Boston 5, at Hartford 6): Cleon Daskalakis replaced Pete Peeters. When did this happen?

According to the Boston Globe, Peeters was lifted after Greg Malone's third-period goal (42:08 into the game). Peeters allowed six goals on sixteen shots. Cleon Daskalakis stopped the final two shots from Hartford.

 

[Doctor No]

October 24, 1984 (Boston 4, at St. Louis 1): Rick Wamsley ENG? (yep!)

According to the Boston Globe, "That was with 1:39 to play, when the Blues lifted goalie Rick Wamsley while Milbury was in the penalty box. Ken Linseman ended that pressure, aiming his second goal of the game 130 feet into an empty net with 1:13 to play."

 

[Doctor No]

February 8, 1985 (Los Angeles 1, at Washington 6): How many shots/saves for Bob Janecyk? I think 21 saves on 27 shots. How many shots/saves for Pat Riggin? I think 31 saves on 32 shots.

According to the Toronto Star, Janecyk was 26/32 and Riggin was 26/27.

 

[Doctor No]

Are you familiar with Elias Sports Bureau? Maybe you can contact them. I am not sure how much they deal with the general public but they may offer advice or even be interested. Their website appears to have minimal information but perhaps you can search around for more info. Here is their page on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Sports_Bureau

I'll check with Elias. I'm also going to contact Ralph Dinger and Benny Ercolani (I'm going to wait until I've made sure it's the only error in 1984-85; plus I also have a 1985-86 error involving Richard Brodeur and Frank Caprice.

Thanks!

 

[Doctor No]

April 10, 1985 (Detroit 5, at Chicago 9): Warren Skorodenski replaced Murray Bannerman at some point in this game. Combined, they stopped 46 of 51 shots. How many did each stop, and how many did each face? When did the switch occur? Who got the win?
April 10, 1985 (Detroit 5, at Chicago 9): Corrado Micalef replaced Greg Stefan at some point in this game. Combined, they stopped 21 of 30 shots. How many did each stop, and how many did each face? When did the switch occur? Who got the win?

According to the Chicago Tribune:

Hawks` goalie Murray Bannerman also made a premature exit, sending anxiety pangs through the crowd when he was replaced by rookie Warren Skorodenski at 6:45 of the third period. Bannerman aggravated the strained stomach muscles that have plagued him for the last two months, but he is scheduled to be back for Game 2 Thursday night in the Stadium. Trainer Skip Thayer said it best: ``If it was a 3-2 game, he wouldn`t have come out.`` ``We took him out as a precautionary measure,`` said Bob Pulford, the Hawks` general manager and coach. ``We think he`s all right.`` ``It`s okay now,`` said Bannerman, who played in only two of the last eight regular-season games. ``I pulled it a little bit when I was moving from left to right on a shot by Kelly Kisio, and it was a little tender.``

When Behn Wilson scored on an outside shot to balloon the Hawks` lead to 6-2 with 8:16 elapsed in the second period, Red Wing coach Nick Polano replaced Stefan with Corrado Micalef.


They don't list the shots faced / saves for each, but based on the totals, and each goaltender's postseason totals, I estimate that Bannerman was 34/37, Skorodenski was 12/14, Stefan was 12/18, and Micalef was 9/12.

 

[Doctor No]

Okay, I'm trying to get some totals sorted out and I need some help from anyone who can tell me exactly what happened in the March 29 game between Edmonton and Hartford.

Hartford won the game, 8-7. According to my notes of the game log, Andy Moog started the game for Edmonton, playing the first period and allowing three goals on eleven shots.

At that point, Grant Fuhr entered the game, allowing five goals on 25 shots and getting the loss.

Or did he?

When I add up my season totals, I have an extra loss for Fuhr and a missing loss for Moog. When I check the weekly goaltending totals in the Toronto Star, I've tracked down the discrepancy to this game. SOMEHOW, ANDY MOOG RECEIVED THE LOSS.

Can anyone explain how? Thanks.

 

[Doctor No]

Next question:

I have Dan Bouchard with a record of 12-14-4 and Mario Gosselin with a record of 19-10-3, based on my game-by-game newspaper research.

The Toronto Star prints weekly NHL statistics. At the end of the season (4/9/85 edition), the newspaper lists Dan Bouchard at 12-14-4 and Mario Gosselin at 19-10-3.

Good news for me, right?

Nope. Now Total Hockey and hockeydb.com both have Bouchard at 12-13-4 and Gosselin at 19-11-3.

Any idea what happened, and for which game they changed the decision from Bouchard to Gosselin?

Thanks!

 

[Doctor No]

Next question, and it's a big one.

At some point, I noticed that I had an "extra" loss for Pelle Lindbergh and was missing a loss for Bob Froese (although game played totals matched for each). Fortunately, since Froese's official totals for 1984-85 were 13-2-0, it should have been easy to find.

The Philadelphia media guide lists Froese with two losses, one to Quebec (March 2nd) and one to Winnipeg. I can confirm the Quebec loss, but cannot find the Winnipeg loss. Moreover, the Winnipeg media guide confirms a Froese loss to Winnipeg. The following were the three Philadelphia/Winnipeg games of 1984-85:

November 1 7-4 Winnipeg victory
December 11 5-4 OT Winnipeg victory
January 27 6-2 Winnipeg victory

My records showed Lindbergh as playing the entire January 27 game, and Lindbergh giving up the overtime goal on December 11 (Froese leaving with strained left knee ligaments). Therefore, my best guess is that the media guides (and league totals) credit the November 1 loss to Froese. Also, looking at the Toronto Star's weekly NHL goaltending totals (printed every Tuesday!), I get further evidence that the November 1st loss was credited to Froese instead of Lindbergh. So let's centre the conversation on November 1, 1984.

Since the discrepancy involved a Philadelphia Flyer goaltender, I had the excellent resource flyershistory.com to work with (if you haven't been there before, you should, because among other things Peter has collected every box score in franchise history). And his box score for the November 1st game matches my records perfectly:

http://flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/boxscore.cgi?19840104

Froese started the game and stopped sixteen of twenty shots. Lindbergh gave up three goals on the final eight shots, and should have earned the loss.

Naturally, I checked with Peter on this, and he was able to access a Philadelphia-area account of the game, confirming that Froese played the first two periods and Lindbergh the last (including the fifth and game-winning goal).

------------

So that's where we are. Are the National Hockey League official totals for Lindbergh and Froese incorrect, and should one of Froese's two losses be credited to Lindbergh (in his trophy-winning campaign no less)? Can anyone lend any insight into the matter? Does The Hockey News have a boxscore, perchance? Any other accounts of the game? Any other boxscores or references on this one? I'm loathe to make this decision based on less than 100% evidence, but as we've seen from St. Croix, the NHL makes mistakes from time to time.

Confounding matters is this report from the Toronto Star: "After the Jets took a 5-3 lead, Flyers goalie Bob Froese was replaced by Pelle Lindbergh.". This conflicts the other evidence; however, Froese is only credited with four goals against Winnipeg in both media guides.

Any help would be...well, very helpful. Thanks!

 

[Doctor No]

To add to the above post, Morey Holzman (an excellent author, and if you don't have his book with Joseph Nieforth - http://www.amazon.com/Deceptions-Do...3034402?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185984807&sr=1-1 - you should buy it now! ) found supporting evidence that it should be Lindbergh's loss.

From the Gettsyburg Times:

"The Jets opened up a three-goal lead at 23 seconds of the third period when Robert Picard took a pass from (Dale) Hawerchuk in front of the goal and went over substitute goalie Pelle Lindbergh."

It now seems all but 100% that Lindbergh's official NHL totals are one loss short, while Bob Froese's official totals are one loss heavy.

 

[Doctor No]

Still need help with Bouchard/Gosselin (post #41), Fuhr/Moog (post #40) and anything still in black on the first post. Thanks!

 

[Doctor No]

April 25, 1985 (Chicago 7, at Minnesota 6): Gilles Meloche (15 saves) replaced Don Beaupre (20 saves). How many goals did each allow, and when did the switch occur?

Thanks to Gary Burrows and THN #38.32, this one is resolved. Beaupre allowed the first six goals, and was yanked at 12:32 of the third period.

 

[Doctor No]

February 17, 1985 (Detroit 4, at Chicago 4): Bannerman and Skorodenski both played. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss (25 saves on 29 shots total for both)?

Thanks to Gary Burrows and THN #38.22, this one is resolved (Bannerman 40m, 13/16, Skorodenski 25m, 12/13).

 

[Doctor No]

January 10, 1985 (St. Louis 5, at Minnesota 3): Rollie Melanson ENG?

Not an empty net goal (thanks, Gary!)

 

[fuhr]

Okay, I'm trying to get some totals sorted out and I need some help from anyone who can tell me exactly what happened in the March 29 game between Edmonton and Hartford.

Hartford won the game, 8-7. According to my notes of the game log, Andy Moog started the game for Edmonton, playing the first period and allowing three goals on eleven shots.

At that point, Grant Fuhr entered the game, allowing five goals on 25 shots and getting the loss.

Or did he?

When I add up my season totals, I have an extra loss for Fuhr and a missing loss for Moog. When I check the weekly goaltending totals in the Toronto Star, I've tracked down the discrepancy to this game. SOMEHOW, ANDY MOOG RECEIVED THE LOSS.

Can anyone explain how? Thanks.

I can check into this for you tomorrow and if there are any other Oiler ones I can help you with I'll do my best to check it out for you.

 

[Doctor No]

I can check into this for you tomorrow and if there are any other Oiler ones I can help you with I'll do my best to check it out for you.

That would be most fantastic - thank you!

 

[reckoning]

November 6, 1984 (St. Louis 3, at NY Islanders 6): I believe that Mike Liut and Rick Wamsley both played in this game (although my notes say that Liut may have played the entire game). When did Wamsley come in for Liut, how many shots did each face, how many goals did each allow, and who got the loss?

Liut was pulled at 17:44 of the 1st period due to back spasms. He had faced 11 shots up to that point. Wamsley faced 25 shots, gave up all 6 goals, and got the loss.