Line Combos: The First Lineups Thread

[Blue Goose]

Other than that... McPhee really needs to be patient with the forwards and not flip the key forward pieces until the deadline. Those guys are what will make the 2018 draft, and it's why he went for futures with some of the other moves. If we're lucky Neal and Perron will have very strong early season production and from there we're in business.

I think the best possible option for us would be a top line of Perron - Ship - Neal.
Even though he hasn't played in the NHL, I would imagine Ship would be the best playmaker to help pump up Perron and Neal's numbers to make them attractive trade pieces. Plus, both of those guys play well on their off-wing, which is what Ship had in the KHL with Gusev and Dadonov - my hope is that this could lead to greater success from the line as a whole.

I all but guarantee Ship sees at least one, if not all three of those guys cycled on his wings.

With the center depth, and good faceoff ones too (outside of Karlsson) I see March going to the wing. There he can focus on trying to score 30 goals again and not worry as much about the defensive responsibilities of a center.

I would bet Ship was promised a solid, extended chance with our top wingers as a factor in coming over. The two year contract was no coincidence...he wants to produce and get paid $$$$$

That's not going to happen with the wingers in the tier below those 3.

Absolutely agree.

I like March on the wing as well, but that's only because I'd like to see him get traded sooner than later. He played very well on the wing with Jagr/Barkov last year, so that would be his best opportunity to get better numbers and increase his trade value.

Although, I honestly believe his trade value is never going to be any higher than it is RIGHT NOW. He had a breakout year last season, and he's on a very cheap expiring contract. His value at the trade deadline should be good, but he'd also be looked at as a rental. Whereas if you look at his value NOW, I think there are LOTS of teams who would want him for the entire season, especially since his cap hit isn't really going to affect their bottom line. My fear is that playing on a mediocre expansion team is only going to see his numbers - and his trade value - decrease, so I'd just as soon move him before he ever plays a game in Vegas, in order to preserve the value he has now. It's the ultimate example of "selling high", and he'll be into his 30's by the time we start competing - plus, he'll likely want to get PAID on his next deal.

 

[derriko]

I disagree. He shot 15.3%, good for 29th in the league. That's a little high, but he's got a great shot, and not unrepeatable. 30 goals was possibly a bit of an anomaly, but the point production wasn't imo.

If he plays on the top line, I could see that dropping a bit, but that being due to volume and more opportunities.

I think he will get 1PP time too. He scored 20 of his 50ish points on the PP last year so he's proven he can be a strong asset there.

And if you look back at his scoring in the minors, Juniors, he typically had more assists than goals.

I think he could repeat a 50 point season next year...maybe 20-25 goals instead of 30 though.

He is only be 26, and be that age for half the season.

So next season as a UFA, assuming he puts up a good season, he needs to be locked up to a 3-5 year deal. Very solid secondary scorer you will want around when Glass is coming into his own, and then you have two solid play makers feeding the goal scorers pucks.

 

[JohnnyHockey]

No doubt. Only thing McNabb has going for him is his age. He's just a guy and not a long term key piece.

RE: Theodore, it comes down to him really. If he shows well in camp he will win a roster spot, and they'll move who they need to move. If not, then yeah he goes down.

Other than that... McPhee really needs to be patient with the forwards and not flip the key forward pieces until the deadline. Those guys are what will make the 2018 draft, and it's why he went for futures with some of the other moves. If we're lucky Neal and Perron will have very strong early season production and from there we're in business.

Last 3 years McNabb got a 56, 57 and 60 CF%. I don't pretend I've ever watched him play, but that's impressive. I realize most of his starts are in the Offensive Zone, but even so, 60% is nuts. As a Star's fan, I'd gladly take that for a bottom pair guy.

 

[Vegas Mac]

Last 3 years McNabb got a 56, 57 and 60 CF%. I don't pretend I've ever watched him play, but that's impressive. I realize most of his starts are in the Offensive Zone, but even so, 60% is nuts. As a Star's fan, I'd gladly take that for a bottom pair guy.

I did watch him play. Former Kings fan, and the guy played where he played for a reason.

There's a chance Vegas sees something in him the Kings missed. But I'd be careful with that line of thinking, as the defensive side of the house is usually something they manage very well.

Last year, even with their second line pairing playing very poorly 5v5, the dude couldn't crack it. And then the Kings kept both Martinez and Muzzin, who were the two in question, over the younger McNabb for a reason. Not bashing on the guy, I mean I actually hope he gets an opportunity and all, but his contract length is a problem as well even if he does play well.

All signs point to McNabb being an extreme longshot to be part of this team for the future.

 

[JohnnyHockey]

I did watch him play. Former Kings fan, and the guy played where he played for a reason.

There's a chance Vegas sees something in him the Kings missed. But I'd be careful with that line of thinking, as the defensive side of the house is usually something they manage very well.

Last year, even with their second line pairing playing very poorly 5v5, the dude couldn't crack it. And then the Kings kept both Martinez and Muzzin, who were the two in question, over the younger McNabb for a reason. Not bashing on the guy, I mean I actually hope he gets an opportunity and all, but his contract length is a problem as well even if he does play well.

All signs point to McNabb being an extreme longshot to be part of this team for the future.

Fair enough. Compared to the Stars last pair though I'd still probably take him. But thanks for the info

 

[derriko]

Scott Cullen at TSN published another article like the one I referenced yesterday about the possession numbers of players that moved teams this summer.

Some interesting names for Vegas on there.

Colin Miller was the best possession player over the last three years to move, while McNabb was number 3.

Grabo was 13th, though he's not likely to ever play for the Knights, and surprisingly Neal was 19th.

I'm not an advanced stat guy myself, but I look into them every once in a while.

Miller and McNabb were very impressive. I think Miller grabs a top 4 role and sticks with it. He's a core piece imo.

On the other end of the spectrum we have Bellemare as the worst possesion player, and then Eakin as the 3rd worst.

Bellemare is understandable as he's just a fringe 4th liner, but that is not good for Eakin.

I have already been calling for Eakin to lose out on the 2C, but now I feel even more confident that this is going to happen.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Neal-Eakin-Perron
Marchessault-Shipachyov-Haula
Karlsson-Glass-Lindberg
Nosek-Tuch-Smith
Bellemare and Pulkkinen

Theodore-Garrison
Hague-McNabb
Sbisa-Merrill
Reinhart and Engelland

Fleury
Pickard


Nine game stint (Or also playing because of an injured player)
Pressbox

Trades:
Fleury and Perron to Buffalo.
Neal and Garrison to Detroit.

 

[uncleben]

Marchessault-Shipachyov-Neal
Perron-Haula-Smith
Lindberg-Karlsson-Leipsic/Tuch
Bellemare-Eakin-Carrier

Theodore-McNabb
Merrill-Miller
Garrison-Engelland/Sbisa

Fleury
Pickard

 

[Nikita Gucherov]

Neal-Eakin-Perron
Marchessault-Shipachyov-Haula
Karlsson-Glass-Lindberg
Nosek-Tuch-Smith
Bellemare and Pulkkinen

Theodore-Garrison
Hague-McNabb
Sbisa-Merrill
Reinhart and Engelland

Fleury
Pickard


Nine game stint (Or also playing because of an injured player)
Pressbox

Trades:
Fleury and Perron to Buffalo.
Neal and Garrison to Detroit.

Why would any team want a negative-value "asset" (i.e. Fleury)? VGK received compensation to select him because nobody else wanted him.

 

[Tender Rip]

Why would any team want a negative-value "asset" (i.e. Fleury)? VGK received compensation to select him because nobody else wanted him.

July clueless award?

 

[Soundgarden]

July clueless award?

I was thinking sarcasm but you never know.

 

[McSuper]

Would Vegas have any interest in RNH ? We would need a 3rd line C coming back +

Haula + a D ........ Haula + A RW

 

[McSuper]

Why would any team want a negative-value "asset" (i.e. Fleury)? VGK received compensation to select him because nobody else wanted him.

Not true . He agreed to waive for Vegas and Vegas only . Calgary wanted him . I am sure there were others . Pens wanted to move him for cap space and they also have Murray so it made sense

 

[Vegas Mac]

Scott Cullen at TSN published another article like the one I referenced yesterday about the possession numbers of players that moved teams this summer.

Some interesting names for Vegas on there.

Colin Miller was the best possession player over the last three years to move, while McNabb was number 3.

Grabo was 13th, though he's not likely to ever play for the Knights, and surprisingly Neal was 19th.

I'm not an advanced stat guy myself, but I look into them every once in a while.

Miller and McNabb were very impressive. I think Miller grabs a top 4 role and sticks with it. He's a core piece imo.

On the other end of the spectrum we have Bellemare as the worst possesion player, and then Eakin as the 3rd worst.

Bellemare is understandable as he's just a fringe 4th liner, but that is not good for Eakin.

I have already been calling for Eakin to lose out on the 2C, but now I feel even more confident that this is going to happen.

I agree Miller will be in a top four pairing for Vegas, definite core piece.

Re: the possession numbers, make sure you are taking TOI and who they're playing against into account. McNabb for example logged 15 per game last season so let him compete, sure, but be careful giving him more ice time and a higher pairing where the holes in his game are going to show.

Eakin is a really interesting case study though. His biggest drawback is his lack of defensive awareness, moreso than any single other element of his game. He's probably never going to have the possession metrics you want in a 1/2C, and you can't count on him to win key faceoffs. But I do like some things he does, like how well he can push that puck up the ice, and that he's done some good things in spurts. Also, he's not being paid as a top center, but is young and has potential still. So I get it, why we took him and I am sure the plan is to round out his game in a system that hopefully won't be as wild west as what Lindy was running in Dallas.

 

[Vegas Mac]

I think the best possible option for us would be a top line of Perron - Ship - Neal.
Even though he hasn't played in the NHL, I would imagine Ship would be the best playmaker to help pump up Perron and Neal's numbers to make them attractive trade pieces. Plus, both of those guys play well on their off-wing, which is what Ship had in the KHL with Gusev and Dadonov - my hope is that this could lead to greater success from the line as a whole.

No doubt. Perron/Ship/Neal on paper looks great, key is whether they can develop the chemistry you need. If I'm George I want those guys padding the F out of their numbers before the break, then we see one or two of the forward chips flipped for round one picks at this year's deadline.

And you know wrt Ship, I am certain he's going to play well at this level (somewhere around that 70 point range) if he has good wingers. He has consistently demonstrated rare instincts with the puck at a very competitive level of hockey, so put some proven guys on his wing and let him do his thing. And if he plays as well as they think he will, he's a guy they can flip next year before the deadline. Comes down to how quickly he'll be able to cope with teams playing him physical, particularly out here in the west.

Fans will be irked by trading of two good forwards, but come the draft when we see them load the system up for a second consecutive year I think it'll all be worth it.

 

[Blue Goose]

Would Vegas have any interest in RNH ? We would need a 3rd line C coming back +

Haula + a D ........ Haula + A RW

Probably not. RNH is a fine player, but I doubt we'd be interested in giving up what it would take to get him. If you wanted to save cash and do a straight swap for Eakin next summer, that's doable. But if it involves picks/prospects going to EDM, then GMGM should pass.

No doubt. Perron/Ship/Neal on paper looks great, key is whether they can develop the chemistry you need. If I'm George I want those guys padding the F out of their numbers before the break, then we see one or two of the forward chips flipped for round one picks at this year's deadline.

And you know wrt Ship, I am certain he's going to play well at this level (somewhere around that 70 point range) if he has good wingers. He has consistently demonstrated rare instincts with the puck at a very competitive level of hockey, so put some proven guys on his wing and let him do his thing. And if he plays as well as they think he will, he's a guy they can flip next year before the deadline. Comes down to how quickly he'll be able to cope with teams playing him physical, particularly out here in the west.

Fans will be irked by trading of two good forwards, but come the draft when we see them load the system up for a second consecutive year I think it'll all be worth it.

One of the biggest questions for me this season is going to be how Ship adjusts to the NHL - it's going to be huge for the development of this team, since it would be nice to pencil him in as the 1C for Years 1 and 2.

I would hope that fans understand that guys like Perron/Neal are not destined to stay here long. If you look at the history of recent NHL expansion teams, nearly all of the players selected in the expansion draft are long gone by the time the team gets good. The casual fans might be upset about seeing certain players moved, but I would hope the hardcore knowledgeable fans would simply be more interested in what they can be moved for.

 

[Aladyyn]

You guys are really underrating Will Carrier imo. He's a valuable, versatile top 9 forward. Fantastic on the forecheck and in transition, solid defensive play, the only thing he's missing is high-end skill. Hopefully he gets more ice-time than he did under that moron in Buffalo.

 

[derriko]

Neal is only 29 and will be for almost the entire season.

His game doesn't rely on skating at all.

I hope he re-signs here and plays in the top 6 for the next 3-5 years.

 

[Blue Goose]

Neal is only 29 and will be for almost the entire season.

His game doesn't rely on skating at all.

I hope he re-signs here and plays in the top 6 for the next 3-5 years.

I wouldn't get your hopes up, that's all.

We'll move him at the deadline to get value, and then it'll be up to him where he wants to spend the next stage of his career. I'd imagine other teams (especially contenders) would likely offer him a better deal than a team like ours. He'll be 30-going-on-31 and will be a UFA for the first time in his career, so I'm not sure he'll want to stick around with a rebuilding team. Who knows? Maybe he'll love it in Vegas and be interested, but I think McPhee will look elsewhere.

 

[Aurinko]

Would Vegas have any interest in RNH ? We would need a 3rd line C coming back +

Haula + a D ........ Haula + A RW

Haula is an exciting player and is a perfect fit for the VGK.. after the first few games the Vegas fans won't let him go. I dream of seeing him as a speedy winger, but he will most likely end up as a center.

 

[rikker]

i am an Isles fan, but very interested in LV, and hope they do well.

i think GMGM is doing a good job so far.

guys that i think are expendable and are likely gone soon, are: Neal, Perron, Garrison, Sbisa, Stoner. tade Sbisa to TML for Martin, and the others for picks. Shipachyov is a wildcard, so i will keep him on the team for a while.

guys that i really like and think they should keep, are:

F - Smith, Eakin, Houla, Lindberg, Karlsson, Marchessault, Pulkkinen, Carrier, Nosek, Leipsic.
D - McNabb, Theodore, Miller.
G - Fleury, Pickard


no stars here (yet), but a good solid core. surround them with a few solid vets and it is fertile ground for upcoming youth, IMO. and man, are they going to have a lot of upcoming youth!

Houla - Shipachyov - Smith
Lindberg - Eakin - Marchessault
Carrier - Karlsson - Pulkkinen
Matt Martin - Bellemare - Tuch

Nosek/Leipsic

Theodore - Miller
McNabb - Franson (UFA)
Schmidt - Engelland

Merrill/Reinhart/Hunt * gotta figure that with all the LH defencemen that they have, 1 or 2 will be traded.

Fleury
Pickard

good enough to not get blown out (consistently ), but finish very low in the standings for a few years. they will have close to 15 picks in the top 3 rounds, over the next 3 years. give them 5 years, and i think we see good things.

 

[AveryStar4Eva]

Perron - Ship - Neal
Haula - Eakin - Marchessault
Smith - Lindberg - Tuch
Carrier - Karlsson - Pulk
Bellemare - Nosek

Garrison - Schmidt
McNabb - Miller
Reinhart - Theo
Merrill - Engelland

I'm not sure why people are drooling over Haula and tossing Eakin to the side. They are the same age and Haula's best offensive season is on par with Eakin's average season.

 

[Aurinko]

Perron - Ship - Neal
Haula - Eakin - Marchessault
Smith - Lindberg - Tuch
Carrier - Karlsson - Pulk
Bellemare - Nosek

Garrison - Schmidt
McNabb - Miller
Reinhart - Theo
Merrill - Engelland

I'm not sure why people are drooling over Haula and tossing Eakin to the side. They are the same age and Haula's best offensive season is on par with Eakin's average season.

I think it's more about the defensive stats. Haula's got very high plusminus seasons while being above his team average, Eakin has been negative and most of the time below his team average.

 

[TaLoN]

Totally agree. If someone is offering a 2018 1st round pick for ANY of our players right now, you have to listen. As you said, Karlsson can be replaced.

Barring trades, I see our four centers as:
Ship
Eakin
Lindberg
Karlsson

Wild fans have said that Haula is much more effective at LW. I see Bellemare as the 4LW, but if you're worried about Karlsson's FO % vs. Bellemare, then you can always let Karlsson play LW and have Bellemare at C (or just have Bellemare take the face-offs!).

I'm a Wild fan and absolutely disagree with that statement! He can play effectively on the wing, sure, but he's a much better center, especially with his value in the faceoff circle! That's pretty much been the consensus for the past couple years too over on the Wild boards. Playing center keeps his focus on the game more intently. He took off over the past couple years defensively once relied upon as a center first and foremost. When he was utilized in both positions... and more frequently on the wing, his game would get sloppy.

The center depth ahead of him just prevented him from getting more time.

I'd be shocked if he's not your team's 2nd or 3rd line center this year.

He's got a lot of offensive upside too if given the opportunity. He just wasn't going to get that opportunity in Minnesota with all the quality depth ahead of him.

 

[Aurinko]

I'm a Wild fan and absolutely disagree with that statement! He can play effectively on the wing, sure, but he's a much better center, especially with his value in the faceoff circle! That's pretty much been the consensus for the past couple years too over on the Wild boards. Playing center keeps his focus on the game more intently. He took off over the past couple years defensively once relied upon as a center first and foremost. When he was utilized in both positions... and more frequently on the wing, his game would get sloppy.

The center depth ahead of him just prevented him from getting more time.

I'd be shocked if he's not your team's 2nd or 3rd line center this year.

He's got a lot of offensive upside too if given the opportunity. He just wasn't going to get that opportunity in Minnesota with all the quality depth ahead of him.

Here are Haula's stats as a winger, from a time when he wasn't forced to be a defensive center: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...aters&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

He had the highest scoring over time in the Wild that season (5v5/4vs5 only since Haula has never played PP).

When McPhee said he has a underrated offensive upside I got tear of joy in my eyes.