The Evolution of Our Teams

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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oh, Stupid in a good way. that makes sense, then. That's also a stupid 3rd line then, while we're at it.

Assuming we call Cyclone Taylor a center, I think Nighbor's 11th at best, and I'm probably one of his top-3 fans. That's in the average "range", anyways.

After Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau and Mikita, I think Nighbor might be the best center of all time. I think he is definitely in the conversation, at least. If forced to make a list, I would probably put him 7th, after the four mentioned above, Esposito, and Morenz. I am not at all convinced that Clarke was better. In fact, I strongly suspect that he was not. Nighbor played a style of defense which was extraordinarily dominant, which no one has ever been able to replicate. He had, like Wayne Gretzky, unique skills. There were other players who could hook check, but there were no other Frank Nighbors, much like there are other players who can pass, but there are no other Wayne Gretzkys.

Clarke was simply an extremely good checker, but I do not think he was as disruptive to other offenses as Nighbor, who was known to regularly break up entire line attacks...like for periods at a time. Hell, I'm not sure Nighbor isn't the 3rd best center of all time, after Mario. He certainly could be, if you think about it. Frank Nighbor in the 40's is probably the single worst and most persistent underrating of an ATD superstar that there is. Honestly, there is absolutely no reason that this guy should get drafted behind guys like Yzerman and Schmidt. He was the backbone of hockey's first great dynasty, and a player who held the entire hockey world in awe.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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After Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau and Mikita, I think Nighbor might be the best center of all time. I think he is definitely in the conversation, at least. If forced to make a list, I would probably put him 7th, after the four mentioned above, Esposito, and Morenz. I am not at all convinced that Clarke was better. In fact, I strongly suspect that he was not. Nighbor played a style of defense which was extraordinarily dominant, which no one has ever been able to replicate. He had, like Wayne Gretzky, unique skills. There were other players who could hook check, but there were no other Frank Nighbors, much like there are other players who can pass, but there are no other Wayne Gretzkys.

Clarke was simply an extremely good checker, but I do not think he was as disruptive to other offenses as Nighbor, who was known to regularly break up entire line attacks...like for periods at a time. Hell, I'm not sure Nighbor isn't the 3rd best center of all time, after Mario. He certainly could be, if you think about it. Frank Nighbor in the 40's is probably the single worst and most persistent underrating of an ATD superstar that there is. Honestly, there is absolutely no reason that this guy should get drafted behind guys like Yzerman and Schmidt. He was the backbone of hockey's first great dynasty, and a player who held the entire hockey world in awe.

Much easier to singlehandedly break up entire line attacks when everybody on that line is prohibited from passing the puck forward, right?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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I'm still not sure I agree with the conclusion, but...

if it was easier, more players would have done it.

Well, obviously Nighbor was the best at it by a wide margin, but there is no way a single player could possibly cover the entire neutral zone by himself if the other team had the option of passing the puck behind him.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
Well, obviously Nighbor was the best at it by a wide margin, but there is no way a single player could possibly cover the entire neutral zone by himself if the other team had the option of passing the puck behind him.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=31429866&postcount=74

Forward passing was allowed in the neutral zone starting in the 1918-19 season. The neutral zone is where Nighbor did his work (and it wouldn't make a difference to Nighbor's defensive game that teams couldn't pass forward in the offensive zone until 29-30, as the blueline even today makes forward passing from the neutral zone to the forward zone very difficult), and he was not slowed, at all, by the rule change.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Feb 27, 2002
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Much easier to singlehandedly break up entire line attacks when everybody on that line is prohibited from passing the puck forward, right?

While I think that's a dangerous sentiment. It is precisely the reason no one has been able to duplicate Nighbor's effectiveness in neutral zone defence. Offences changed, Nighbor couldn't do what he did now.

On the flipside, Clarke having a season where he was playing 20+ minutes a night and only being on the ice for one goal against every 4 games is utterly ridiculous and probably more dominant than Nighbor.

And lets not overlook Nighbor's offence. His finishes are: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th. In a split league era. Any first line where Frank Nighbor is the best scoring forward on it is a flat out bad first line.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
Well, obviously Nighbor was the best at it by a wide margin, but there is no way a single player could possibly cover the entire neutral zone by himself if the other team had the option of passing the puck behind him.

Nighbor spent most of his time with strong defensive right wings and defensemen who moved up into the play. I believe those Sens were essentially a trapping team with Denneny as the lone forechecker most of the time. Nighbor was the lynchpin of the first trap, I believe. The talents that he had, in a trapping system where play could be funneled to the middle of the ice, would be devestating.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=31429866&postcount=74

Forward passing was allowed in the neutral zone starting in the 1918-19 season. The neutral zone is where Nighbor did his work (and it wouldn't make a difference to Nighbor's defensive game that teams couldn't pass forward in the offensive zone until 29-30, as the blueline even today makes forward passing from the neutral zone to the forward zone very difficult), and he was not slowed, at all, by the rule change.

This is a good point, but they still couldn't pass between zones until 29-30, correct? No passing the puck out of the defensive zone, no dumping the puck in from the neutral zone.

Considering one of the best ways to deal with a trap is to dump the puck in rather than skating it in, the Ottawa trap must have been particularly devastating.

Not being able to pass the puck from the defensive zone to the neutral zone would also make it easier to set up the trap, because Nighbor would know exactly where the puck would enter the zone.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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And lets not overlook Nighbor's offence. His finishes are: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th. In a split league era. Any first line where Frank Nighbor is the best scoring forward on it is a flat out bad first line.

You forget that Nighbor was primarily a playmaker in an era where assists were counted maybe less than half of the modern rate. Nighbor tying Joe Malone in goals almost certainly means that he was the best offensive player in the league that season.

But anyway, you are correct, but that is true of Bobby Clarke, as well, who is offensively behind quite a few second line centers in the ATD.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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You forget that Nighbor was primarily a playmaker in an era where assists were counted maybe less than half of the modern rate. Nighbor tying Joe Malone in goals almost certainly means that he was the best offensive player in the league that season.

But anyway, you are correct, but that is true of Bobby Clarke, as well, who is offensively behind quite a few second line centers in the ATD.

I agree on both points. Frank Nighbor was indisputably the best player in the 1916-17 season. But to be better than Mikita one great year is not going to cut it. And Clarke is definitly questionable offensively. Especially depending on how you feel about the era.

But I struggle to accept the great playmaker claims without any hard evidence. There is anecdotal evidence that Keats was better. There's statistical evidence that Boucher was better. I need more than has been shown.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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But anyway, you are correct, but that is true of Bobby Clarke, as well, who is offensively behind quite a few second line centers in the ATD.

True. Clarke pretty clearly has the weakest offense of any forward usually drafted in the first round. Nighbor would be right up (down?) there
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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This is a good point, but they still couldn't pass between zones until 29-30, correct? No passing the puck out of the defensive zone, no dumping the puck in from the neutral zone.

No...dumping the puck up ice was always allowed. There just wasn't allowed to be anyone on the receiving end of the play, but players have been allowed to clear or loft (but not pass) the puck down ice since the very beginning of hockey, I believe. As far as "dump in passes" are concerned, I believe they were legal, and were used as a sort of grey area (much like Benedict's "praying") in an era when the rules weren't fully fleshed out yet, but it is not clear. The papers of the time have scant reference to the specifics of penalties called and wouldn't use terms like "dump in", anyway, so even if they referred to such an event, we might not understand their meaning.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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No...dumping the puck up ice was always allowed. There just wasn't allowed to be anyone on the receiving end of the play, but players have been allowed to clear or loft (but not pass) the puck down ice since the very beginning of hockey, I believe. As far as "dump in passes" are concerned, I believe they were legal, and were used as a sort of grey area (much like Benedict's "praying") in an era when the rules weren't fully fleshed out yet, but it is not clear. The papers of the time have scant reference to the specifics of penalties called and wouldn't use terms like "dump in", anyway, so even if they referred to such an event, we might not understand their meaning.

Oh right, and "lifting" the puck from your own defensive end was considered a key part of being a defenseman. Seems like the only help Nighbor would have gotten by the rules is the inability to pass out of the defensive zone to another player on your team - which is a pretty big deal.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
I agree on both points. Frank Nighbor was indisputably the best player in the 1916-17 season. But to be better than Mikita one great year is not going to cut it. And Clarke is definitly questionable offensively. Especially depending on how you feel about the era.

But I struggle to accept the great playmaker claims without any hard evidence. There is anecdotal evidence that Keats was better. There's statistical evidence that Boucher was better. I need more than has been shown.

I definitely believe that Boucher was better. We know that Nighbor's NHL finishes in assists are 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, and that this excludes 3 peak seasons spent in the NHA/PCHA, including probably his best offensive season. That is already a playmaking resume which makes him the second best playmaker of his era, and only because the best was an all-time great playmaker in Taylor. I think he was as good offensively as Clarke, and a better goalscorer.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
I agree on both points. Frank Nighbor was indisputably the best player in the 1916-17 season. But to be better than Mikita one great year is not going to cut it.

I said I would rate him after Mikita. Nighbor could be better (because I think the defensive gap is very wide), but if I was drafting between them, I would pick Mikita first.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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I definitely believe that Boucher was better. We know that Nighbor's NHL finishes in assists are 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, and that this excludes 3 peak seasons spent in the NHA/PCHA, including probably his best offensive season. That is already a playmaking resume which makes him the second best playmaker of his era, and only because the best was an all-time great playmaker in Taylor. I think he was as good offensively as Clarke, and a better goalscorer.

IMO, if anyone has the credentials to rise to 3rd or 4th best centre ever, Taylor is the man. There just needs to be more work done on proving he played centre regularly.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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Oh right, and "lifting" the puck from your own defensive end was considered a key part of being a defenseman. Seems like the only help Nighbor would have gotten by the rules is the inability to pass out of the defensive zone to another player on your team - which is a pretty big deal.

Yes, this would make pressure in the attacking zone particularly effective. I imagine Frank Nighbor could make it very hard to move the puck up ice, at all.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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I agree on both points. Frank Nighbor was indisputably the best player in the 1916-17 season. But to be better than Mikita one great year is not going to cut it. And Clarke is definitly questionable offensively. Especially depending on how you feel about the era.

But I struggle to accept the great playmaker claims without any hard evidence. There is anecdotal evidence that Keats was better. There's statistical evidence that Boucher was better. I need more than has been shown.

wouldn't the assist totals constitute hard evidence?
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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IMO, if anyone has the credentials to rise to 3rd or 4th best centre ever, Taylor is the man. There just needs to be more work done on proving he played centre regularly.

Taylor, Nighbor and Morenz are the only players in the argument for best center before Beliveau, chronologically. Personally, I think it could go either way with those three, and that the only reason they go in the order they do is because Morenz is a Hab, Taylor is exotic (and you did a great job of selling him), and Nighbor is sort of hard to understand.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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No, I actually expected them to be better. Beyond his two first place finishes, he plunges rather quickly. I guess that's why I have never brought myself to draft him even when tempted.

Yeah...I have tended to shy away from Bobby where he is normally drafted, as well, but that is not because I don't think Bobby is worth it there. More a case of thinking Nighbor is consistently much better value and being in the market for defensemen when I'm in the range to pick Clarke.

I actually think it is easier to build an offensive line around Nighbor, because Frank is a dangerous goal-scorer in a way that Clarke is not.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Yeah...I have tended to shy away from Bobby where he is normally drafted, as well, but that is not because I don't think Bobby is worth it there. More a case of thinking Nighbor is consistently much better value and being in the market for defensemen when I'm in the range to pick Clarke.

I actually think it is easier to build an offensive line around Nighbor, because Frank is a dangerous goal-scorer in a way that Clarke is not.
And a strong skater.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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ATD2011 - 40 teams - (Lost in 1st round)

MONTREAL CANADIENS

:habs
#16 patrik elias - #99 wayne gretzky - #9 lanny mcdonald
#17 wendel clark - #18 denis savard - #19 jean pronovost
#2 louis berlinquette - #11 steve kasper - #17 mike foligno
#14 geoff courtnall - #15 billy reay - #27 alex kovalev
spares: #10 barry pederson , #30 chris nilan


#5 nicklas lidstrom - #16 vladimir konstantinov
#20 gary suter - #20 dallas smith
#26 dave langevin - #34 al iafrate
spares: #26 mike milbury


#1 alec connell
#35 jean-sébastien giguère

ATD2012 - 32 teams - (Lost in 2nd round)

LES CANADIENS DE MONTRÉAL

:habs

pat burns

roster

cy denneny - frank nighbor - helmut balderis
patrik elias - adam oates - bryan hextall sr.
craig ramsay - phil goyette - claude provost
patrick marleau - vincent lecavalier - tomas sandstrom

harry howell - leonard ''red'' kelly
barry beck - dan boyle
jamie macoun - ron stackhouse

harry lumley
andy moog

spares: Craig conroy , andre dupont , jason spezza , curt fraser


ATD2013 - 32 teams - (Won Championship)

MONTREAL CANADIENS

:habs

Habs%20-%20Banner%20Pins%20-%20All.jpg

GMs: BenchBrawl / Sturminator
Captain: Mikhailov
Assistant: Bourque
Assistant: Coulter

HEAD COACH


ROSTER






PP1: Jackson - Boucher - Mikhailov
Schneider - Bourque

PP2: Kapustin - Roenick - Balderis
Thomson - Mortson

PK1: Klukay - Luce
Bourque - Coulter

PK2: Murray - Boucher
Mortson - Thomson

PK3: Roenick - Mikhailov
Rowe

ATD2014 - 28 teams - (Lost in 2nd round)

MONTREAL CANADIENS

:habs

Habs%20-%20Banner%20Pins%20-%20All.jpg


GM:BenchBrawl
Captain: Boris Mikhailov
Assistant: Frantisek Pospisil
Assistant:


HEAD COACH

ROSTER

Syd Howe - Howie Morenz - Boris Mikhailov (K)
Paul Thompson - Frank Fredrickson - Dave Taylor
Igor Liba - Cooney Weiland - Ernie Russell
Pavol Demitra - Doug Risebrough - Don Marcotte

Sprague Cleghorn - Frantisek Pospisil (A)
Jimmy Thomson - Jack Crawford
Teppo Numminen - Keith Magnuson

Frank Brimsek

ATD2015 - 32 teams - (Lost in 2nd round)

41EH08NF31L._SL160_.jpg


Kenora THISTLES

1907 Stanley Cup Champions

Home Rink: Thistle Rink (1920), Kenora, Ontario
GM: papershoes & BenchBrawl

Dick Irvin

Tommy Phillips - Elmer Lach (A) - Maurice Richard (C)
Sergei Kapustin - Jeremy Roenick - Helmut Balderis
Alexander Yakushev - Jonathan Toews (A) - Ron Ellis
Dennis Hextall - David Backes - Stan Smyl


extra: Craig Janney, Steve Sullivan

Bill Gadsby - Tom Johnson (A)
Joe Hall - Jimmy Thomson
Viktor Kuzkin - Zinetula Bilyaletdinov

extra: Bryan McCabe , Alexander Gusev

Chuck Rayner
Hap Holmes

Powerplay:
PP1: Alexander Yakushev - Jeremy Roenick - Maurice Richard - Viktor Kuzkin - Bill Gadsby
PP2: Tommy Phillips - Elmer Lach - Helmut Balderis - Joe Hall - Bill Gadsby/Jimmy Thomson

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Tommy Phillips - David Backes - Jimmy Thomson - Tom Johnson
PK2: Ron Ellis - Elmer Lach - Zinetula Bilyaletdinov - Joe Hall
PK3: Toews - Smyl

Noteworthy: We play Yakushev, our 3rd best winger, on the 3rd line to balance the offensive capabilities of our top 9.Kapustin takes his place on the 2nd line.

The Kenora Thistles
"...an early amateur men's ice hockey team based in Kenora, Ontario, Canada and formed in 1885 as a senior team by a group of 'Lake of the Woods' lumbermen. The club is notable for winning the Stanley Cup as an amateur team in 1907. The town is the smallest in population to have ever won the Stanley Cup"​

ATD2016 - 26 teams - (Lost in 3rd Round (Division Finals)):

MONTREAL CANADIENS

:habs

Habs%20-%20Banner%20Pins%20-%20All.jpg


GM: BenchBrawl
Captain: George Armstrong
Assistant: Frantisek Pospisil
Assistant: Gordie Howe


HEAD COACH
Peter Laviolette

ROSTER
Sweeney Schriner - Sidney Crosby - Gordie Howe (A)
Paul Thompson - Vincent Lecavalier - Cecil Dillon
Herbie Lewis - Cooney Weiland - George Armstrong (C)
Bob Davidson - Pete Mahovlich - John Maclean

Eric Staal , Gregg Sheppard , Pierre Turgeon

Guy Lapointe - Tim Horton
František PospÚil (A) - Joe Hall
Bucko McDonald - Lennart Svedberg

Alex Pietrangelo

Ed Belfour
Carey Price

PP1: Schriner - Crosby - Howe - Lapointe - Svedberg

PP2: Thompson - Lecavalier - Dillon - Hall - Pospisil

PK1: Mahovlich - Davidson - Horton - Pospisil
PK2: Weiland - Armstrong - Lapointe - McDonald
PK3: Howe - Maclean

ATD2017 - 25 teams - (Won Championship)

MONTREAL CANADIENS

:habs

GM: BenchBrawl

Captain: Derian Hatcher
Assistant: Bryan Trottier
Assistant: Shea Weber
Assistant: Doug Harvey

HEAD COACH

Al Arbour

ROSTER





PP1: Andreychuk - Trottier - Fredrickson - Harvey - Geoffrion
PP2: Thompson - Modano - Elias - Weber - Boucher

PK1: Modano - Toppazzini - Hatcher - Harvey
PK2: Trottier - Sheppard - Boucher - Weber


ATD2018 - 24 teams - (Lost in 2nd round)

MONTREAL CANADIENS

:habs

GM: BenchBrawl

Captain: Eddie Gerard
Assistant: Yvan Cournoyer
Assistant: Georges Boucher
Assistant: Charlie Gardiner
Assistant: Bryan Trottier
Assistant: Lionel Hitchman
Assistant: Ivan Hlinka

HEAD COACH

Al Arbour

ROSTER

Bert Olmstead - Bryan Trottier (A) - Brett Hull
Jamie Benn - Mike Modano - Yvan Cournoyer (A)
Baldy Northcott - Jeremy Roenick - Bobby Bauer
Igor Liba - Ivan Hlinka (A) - Eric Nesterenko

Lionel Hitchman (A) - Eddie Shore
Georges Boucher (A) - Eddie Gerard (C)
Gary Bergman - Red Dutton

Charlie Gardiner (A)

PP1: Hull-Trottier-Olmstead-Boucher-Shore
PP2: Bauer-Modano-Cournoyer-Bergman-Gerard
PK1: Modano-Nesterenko-Hitchman-Gerard
PK2: Northcott-Trottier-Dutton-Shore
PK3: Olmstead-Liba-Bergman-Boucher

ATD2019 - 20 teams (Lost in Conference Finals (3rd Round))

MONTREAL CANADIENS
:habs
GM: BenchBrawl
Captain: Eddie Gerard
Assistant: Doug Harvey
Assistant: Jarome Iginla
Assistant: Derian Hatcher

HEAD COACH
Hap Day

ROSTER
Alex Yakushev - Frank Boucher - Jarome Iginla (A)
Baldy Northcott - Mike Modano - Marian Hossa
Jamie Benn - Frank Fredrickson - Dave Taylor
Don Marcotte - Ken Mosdell - Bobby Rousseau
Joe Pavelski, Blake Wheeler
Doug Harvey (A) - Eddie Gerard (C)
Derian Hatcher (A) - Drew Doughty
Bobby Rowe - Bullet Joe Simpson
Glen Harmon, Ted Harris
Jacques Plante
Miikka Kiprusoff
 
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