The Cleveland Canadiens

[blood gin]

How close was this to actually happening in 1935? And were there any discussions as to what they might be renamed?

What do you think would ultimately been the franchises fate if they ended up in Cleveland. Would the Maroons have made it? I know they were mostly aimed at the English fans but would the French Canadian fans migrated over since they'd be the only game in town?

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[Killion]

I dont believe it ever got that far, to the point of the wannabe owners coming up with a new name for the Club.... The Canadiens actually in trouble for a good 8yrs leading up to 1935/36, offer of $200,000 from Cleveland. In 1930 they were offered $600,000 from an unnamed US based group, then $300,000 a few years later....

The Market Crash of 29 & The Great Depression really took a toll on pro sports teams, pro hockey still relatively young well.... Leo Dandurand & Joseph Cattarinich, owners of the Canadiens refused 600 Grand which was huge money in 1930 (app $8.5M in todays dollars), absolutely committed to Montreal, then with the meltdown watched as their franchise spiraled down in value, had to start selling off assets, box office anemic....

Hung in there of course... unthinkable that Montreal should be without a club... Dick Irvin Sr. after being "let go" by Conn Smythe in Toronto but who then recommended him, insisted Montreal hire him followed by the arrival of Maurice Richard... WW2 & the economy kickstarted through the creation of the armaments & ship building industries etc.... then the arrival of Frank Selke Sr post war.... another Smythe Special & well.... all history now.... The Montreal Canadiens without question not only the most successful franchise in the history of the League but so too for most of that history, the classiest. Very model of what a franchise should be.

 

[Canadiens1958]

How close was this to actually happening in 1935? And were there any discussions as to what they might be renamed?

What do you think would ultimately been the franchises fate if they ended up in Cleveland. Would the Maroons have made it? I know they were mostly aimed at the English fans but would the French Canadian fans migrated over since they'd be the only game in town?

Not very. The Montreal Forum was built with the Maroons as the prime tenant, co-mingling of ownership. Canadiens came over later from the Mount Royal Arena as a tenant.

However the Maroons ownership never invested in the team. Played with minimal rosters.Yes they won 2 SCs, 1926 and 1935 but in 1935 lost money. Cut expenses, competed but eventually folded with a number of solid players inc. Toe Blake going to the Canadiens the tenant.No true dispersal draft.

1935 if Cleveland really wanted a team, the Ottawa/St.Louis franchise was readily available. A younger team with two excellent young players, Syd Howe and Bill Cowley.

 

[frontsfan2005]

Not very. The Montreal Forum was built with the Maroons as the prime tenant, co-mingling of ownership. Canadiens came over later from the Mount Royal Arena as a tenant.

However the Maroons ownership never invested in the team. Played with minimal rosters.Yes they won 2 SCs, 1926 and 1935 but in 1935 lost money. Cut expenses, competed but eventually folded with a number of solid players inc. Toe Blake going to the Canadiens the tenant.No true dispersal draft.

1935 if Cleveland really wanted a team, the Ottawa/St.Louis franchise was readily available. A younger team with two excellent young players, Syd Howe and Bill Cowley.

That's a great point regarding Cleveland and if they really wanted a team, the St. Louis Eagles were available. Apparently there wasn't any credible offers for the Eagles, which makes one think the Canadiens to Cleveland rumours were just rumours.

I think Cleveland would have been a solid spot for an NHL franchise in this time period. Cleveland has been a long rival with Detroit in sports, and they'd likely have one with Toronto and Chicago.

I wonder if the NHL would have been happy with 7 teams, or if they would have looked for an 8th franchise to "even" out the league. A successful Cleveland franchise could have paved the way for a team in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia earlier than 1967, despite both of these cities losing teams in the early 1930s. Perhaps Buffalo would have been looked at too?

 

[Canadiens1958]

That's a great point regarding Cleveland and if they really wanted a team, the St. Louis Eagles were available. Apparently there wasn't any credible offers for the Eagles, which makes one think the Canadiens to Cleveland rumours were just rumours.

I think Cleveland would have been a solid spot for an NHL franchise in this time period. Cleveland has been a long rival with Detroit in sports, and they'd likely have one with Toronto and Chicago.

I wonder if the NHL would have been happy with 7 teams, or if they would have looked for an 8th franchise to "even" out the league. A successful Cleveland franchise could have paved the way for a team in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia earlier than 1967, despite both of these cities losing teams in the early 1930s. Perhaps Buffalo would have been looked at too?

Biggest obstacle was the arena situation in prospective cities.

1935 NHL was gate driven yet a team played a 48 game Schedule, plus playoffs. So 24 home games plus possible playoff gates.

30 dates out of 365.Hard to justify a new arena suitable for NHL capacity.

 

[Killion]

Biggest obstacle was the arena situation in prospective cities.

1935 NHL was gate driven yet a team played a 48 game Schedule, plus playoffs. So 24 home games plus possible playoff gates.

30 dates out of 365.Hard to justify a new arena suitable for NHL capacity.

Al Sutphin, one of the founders of the AHL & owner of the Barons did build a brand new & then, for its time, state of the art Cleveland Arena which as you know opened in 1937. It sat app 9,900 for hockey; 12,500 with floor seating for things like Boxing, Sutphin also owning a pro Basketball team, the arena actually doing extremely well with the lights on a great many nights right on through the late 30's, 40's & 50's.

Cleveland Arena credited with hosting the first "Rock n' Roll Concert" in 1952, with local WJW Cleveland DJ Alan Freed (who coined the term "rock n' roll", career ruined some years later over the Payola scandal) presenting the acts, called the Moondog Coronation Ball, however it was shutdown by the local Police & Fire Marshall as theyd vastly oversold the event, 20,000 people packed into the building, all Hell breaking loose, riot ensued.

So yes, Cleveland did have the building by 37 & the management in "Uncle Al" Sutphin as he was warmly & admiringly referred to by the citizenry... and despite entreaties & invitations by the NHL to join, invited, he declined, his loyalty to the AHL which as mentioned he'd helped to found & he felt that as Cleveland was the strongest team in the League if he left, be the death of an affordable & excellent brand of hockey, cause harm to those who'd bought franchises elsewhere including the Coaches, Players & Fans.... A Man of Honor.

 

[Howie Hodge]

The Cleveland Arena! 3700 - 3717 Euclid Avenue!!

I moved to Cleveland in 1985. I was playing a soccer game at Cleveland State. I said to a couple locals, "we're on Euclid; I assume The Cleveland Arena was nearby?" They laughed and informed me I was literally standing on the old site of the old Cleveland Arena!

The WHA Cleveland Crusaders started at The Cleveland Arena in 1972, but moved to The Richfield Coliseum around 1974. Of course I knew all about The Richfield Coliseum, as I worked for The Cleveland Force of the old MISL so I was there for every Force home game for several years.

An aside. I was in Joe Louis Arena several years later. I was working an event. My only time ever in there. I knew where everything was. Astonished Detroit locals asked me how I could know my way around so well. Simple. The Joe Louis Arena was the exact same construction and layout (as far as I could tell) as was The Richlfield Coliseum. Both built in 1973/74 I believe...

Boring stuff, but I still remember it all like it was yesterday...

 

[Killion]

Boring stuff, but I still remember it all like it was yesterday...

No not at all, interesting stuff. A lot of arena's were "built after" existing buildings, some using the exact same architectural plans & even contractors. Calgary's Saddle Dome & others "built after" the Arizona War Vets in Phoenix for example. Hamilton's then called Copps Coliseum (now 1st Ontario Place) widely copied during the building boom of the 90's & 00's. Name & location escapes me at the moment but there was an arena built in the US northeast by the same contractor, engineer or whatever/whomever that had been involved in the building of Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto.

Exact copy pretty much though without the same seating capacity but the same size. Same interior. I posted pictures of it here one time, still standing & in use. So for anyone hankering to know what MLG was like or who misses it, take a trip to that place. Eerie. Like a parallel universe. The same but "different".... you ever venture into the multivers? Meet your Doppleganger? Very likely another Howie Hodge living in Detroit. Wings fan... Now, as for Richfield.... site now a bird sanctuary.... earth after people type dealeo. Youd think the generations that followed (hello Ottawa, Sunrise FL, Glendale AZ & elsewhere) would have learned from the Richfield fiasco.... that suburban & rural sites not a real good idea for arenas' in almost every & any case.

 

[Howie Hodge]

The older buildings certainly had a distinct charm!

Of course I loved The Aud. But I also loved Maple Leaf Gardens.

The Rochester Blue Cross Arena (in certain areas) reminds me bit of MLG with the narrow corridors and brick walls......

Just brings back memories.

 

[Killion]

The older buildings certainly had a distinct charm!

Of course I loved The Aud. But I also loved Maple Leaf Gardens.

The Rochester Blue Cross Arena (in certain areas) reminds me bit of MLG with the narrow corridors and brick walls......

Just brings back memories.

Indeed... wish I could remember the name & location of that MLG copy.... Also, love the old smaller buildings, NHL/WHA, minor-pro and Junior.... heres a great site with links & photo's of old barns in Ontario, right across Canada & into the US in fact, some still in use... www.ohlarenaguide.com/oldrinks.htm

 

[generalshepherd141]

I think what would've ended up happening is the Maroons replace the Canadiens in the Original Six, while Cleveland folds after several years. But it's impossible to know for sure; that's what makes stories like this so intriguing. IRL the Canadiens are the most storied NHL team, but in this alternate world if this one relocation occurred the NHL could completely change.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Wonder if there's still rinks with the chain fencing or chicken wire as opposed to Plexiglas? There must be somewhere.

I remember playing in the seventies and taking my man out as we went around the corner. He suddenly stopped apparently on a dime, and I wondered how he could have done that.

His glove laces had gotten caught on the fencing and held him up. He was, for a brief moment sideways along the board and fencing, it was surreal. Luckily he didn't seem to suffer any significant injury.

If that happened to me know I think my shoulder would be ruined. On second thought that would require I play with pace - which I wouldn't be able to do anymore if I tried.....

 

[Killion]

Wonder if there's still rinks with the chain fencing or chicken wire as opposed to Plexiglas? There must be somewhere.

I remember playing in the seventies and taking my man out as we went around the corner. He suddenly stopped apparently on a dime, and I wondered how he could have done that.

His glove laces had gotten caught on the fencing and held him up. He was, for a brief moment sideways along the board and fencing, it was surreal. Luckily he didn't seem to suffer any significant injury.

If that happened to me know I think my shoulder would be ruined. On second thought that would require I play with pace - which I wouldn't be able to do anymore if I tried.....

.... you kiddin? Insurance rates would be through the roof, heck any old facility still using chain link likely banned, outlawed, condemned.... though I do believe you will find some of the still operating outdoor municipal rinks still using chain link..... When I started playing before the indoor boom (and even the earlier indoors used chainlink) the outdoor rinks we played on were chain & some even chicken wired with rough hewn 2" X 12" x 8' or 10' planks 4 high, stacked & braced by 2 x 4's. Total nightmare as they'd split, fracture with hard shots against them leaving wicked slivers on the ice that you could easily skate over, ass over tea kettle or God Forbid you should go face first or even be rubbed into the sections that were fractured with their lethal pointy points sticking out. You really had to be "aware" of everything. The conditions of the boards, the uneven ice surfaces, pucks taking bizarre bounces etc.

The players "bench's" & penalty boxes carved, dug out of snowbanks, no gates or doors, square corners, fixed steel goalposts draped in fishing net. No paint on the ice surface, just center & blue line markings "approximately" where they should be on the boards..... and it was GD well freezin eff'n cold out there lemme tell ya as most were setup out on playing fields with zero wind protection... and, you also didnt wanna be playing looking into the Sun if that was even out. At night, either one floodlight or some of them, like a fairytale skating rink with Chinese lanterns, strings of bare bulbs Gerrymandered, draped from 10' or 12' poles across the ice surface. Ice cleaning machinery consisting of shovels, brooms, the players job to clean up the surface before every game, garden watering can to effect repairs to chipped ice that instantly froze (spring thaws problematical, slush).... "Warmup Hut", usually consisting of either one or sometimes 2 separate rooms with either a wood burning pot bellied stove or oil burning unit giving off noxious fumes combined with clouds of cigarette, pipe & cigar smoke.... yep.... fun times Howie.

 

[Howie Hodge]

.... you kiddin? Insurance rates would be through the roof, heck any old facility still using chain link likely banned, outlawed, condemned.... though I do believe you will find some of the still operating outdoor municipal rinks still using chain link..... When I started playing before the indoor boom (and even the earlier indoors used chainlink) the outdoor rinks we played on were chain & some even chicken wired with rough hewn 2" X 12" x 8' or 10' planks 4 high, stacked & braced by 2 x 4's. Total nightmare as they'd split, fracture with hard shots against them leaving wicked slivers on the ice that you could easily skate over, ass over tea kettle or God Forbid you should go face first or even be rubbed into the sections that were fractured with their lethal pointy points sticking out. You really had to be "aware" of everything. The conditions of the boards, the uneven ice surfaces, pucks taking bizarre bounces etc.

The players "bench's" & penalty boxes carved, dug out of snowbanks, no gates or doors, square corners, fixed steel goalposts draped in fishing net. No paint on the ice surface, just center & blue line markings "approximately" where they should be on the boards..... and it was GD well freezin eff'n cold out there lemme tell ya as most were setup out on playing fields with zero wind protection... and, you also didnt wanna be playing looking into the Sun if that was even out. At night, either one floodlight or some of them, like a fairytale skating rink with Chinese lanterns, strings of bare bulbs Gerrymandered, draped from 10' or 12' poles across the ice surface. Ice cleaning machinery consisting of shovels, brooms, the players job to clean up the surface before every game, garden watering can to effect repairs to chipped ice that instantly froze (spring thaws problematical, slush).... "Warmup Hut", usually consisting of either one or sometimes 2 separate rooms with either a wood burning pot bellied stove or oil burning unit giving off noxious fumes combined with clouds of cigarette, pipe & cigar smoke.... yep.... fun times Howie.

Oh yeah, there was a real innocence, but satisfaction from the simple rinks. And thank you for conjuring up some of those images!

Ellicott Creek Park in Buffalo (Tonawanda actually, where I lived) had exactly what you describe. One flooded area where it was up to us to shovel to our desired rink size. A crudely heated "Warmup Hut" that was warm enough to stop the beer from freezing only. And yes; it smelled of old wood and whatever in there. Several creaky poles with the old silver plated light fixtures and flood lights. We would play until we either got too cold, or when the Park Workers got around to shutting off the lights. Occasionally we'd run out of pucks if the snow was too deep.

Very Democratic in choosing up teams. Even division of travel, house, and novice players to keep it relatively even.

The event was complete when "Crazy Dave" would stop by with a jug of water he claimed he got from a secret well in the park. Truth be told there was no well; only creek water available.

Different world back then Killion!

 

[Canadiens1958]

.... you kiddin? Insurance rates would be through the roof, heck any old facility still using chain link likely banned, outlawed, condemned.... though I do believe you will find some of the still operating outdoor municipal rinks still using chain link..... When I started playing before the indoor boom (and even the earlier indoors used chainlink) the outdoor rinks we played on were chain & some even chicken wired with rough hewn 2" X 12" x 8' or 10' planks 4 high, stacked & braced by 2 x 4's. Total nightmare as they'd split, fracture with hard shots against them leaving wicked slivers on the ice that you could easily skate over, ass over tea kettle or God Forbid you should go face first or even be rubbed into the sections that were fractured with their lethal pointy points sticking out. You really had to be "aware" of everything. The conditions of the boards, the uneven ice surfaces, pucks taking bizarre bounces etc.

The players "bench's" & penalty boxes carved, dug out of snowbanks, no gates or doors, square corners, fixed steel goalposts draped in fishing net. No paint on the ice surface, just center & blue line markings "approximately" where they should be on the boards..... and it was GD well freezin eff'n cold out there lemme tell ya as most were setup out on playing fields with zero wind protection... and, you also didnt wanna be playing looking into the Sun if that was even out. At night, either one floodlight or some of them, like a fairytale skating rink with Chinese lanterns, strings of bare bulbs Gerrymandered, draped from 10' or 12' poles across the ice surface. Ice cleaning machinery consisting of shovels, brooms, the players job to clean up the surface before every game, garden watering can to effect repairs to chipped ice that instantly froze (spring thaws problematical, slush).... "Warmup Hut", usually consisting of either one or sometimes 2 separate rooms with either a wood burning pot bellied stove or oil burning unit giving off noxious fumes combined with clouds of cigarette, pipe & cigar smoke.... yep.... fun times Howie.

Very common in Quebec outdoor rinks BUT just behind the two nets to keep the puck in play. Usually about 3-6 feet high and 3-6 feet to each side of the net. Per Image.

Also between the blue lines on one side you would have shelters -similar to modern bus shelters for each team - coaches and players waiting their shift.