The case for keeping Mike Green

[Hammettf2b]

Bring in Lidström or Rafalski back as an assistant coach and then your player development should be in good hands.

What does Doug Houda understand about quarterbackin on a PP ?

Nothing.

Veteran presence is important, but development can happens also outside from the cap by strengthening the coaching core.



Darren Helm has interesting NTC.

CLAUSE DETAILS:
- Full NTC throughout 2018-19
- NTC may be voided between June 15, 2019 & 2019-20 NHL Trade deadline, if player is not in the Top 9 F in TOI, or if team does not qualify for the playoffs (in previous season?)
- 2019-20: NTC may be voided between June 15, 2020 & final day of the contract, if player is not in the Top 9 F in TOI, or if team does not qualify for the playoffs (in previous season?)

Helm is already 8th in TOI and doesn't need a big injury to drop from the Top9.

Pretty much Holland constructed the deal in a way, where Helm is considered as part of the core for first 3 seasons and guy will be a trade bait for last 2 seasons. Front-loaded contract, could retain etc. Will fit on any team, on contender or a team which will need to fix financial situation (catch the cap floor).

Same clauses are on Abdelkader deal, first 4 years are locked on the team, then last 3 years there's those out clauses. Also front-loaded, movable contract.

Daley-deal is constructed same ways. These deals were made as 2-dimensional, first to be used some years on-ice, and then sell them before the end.

It's as if... dare I say it... Holland knows what hes doing???

 

[SirloinUB]

Much has been discussed about our situation at the trade deadline and Mike Green has been at the forefront. As a veteran right-handed defenseman with offensive capabilities, there's no doubt he'd be highly coveted. A 1st round pick would be the likely return. I've been a large proponent of selling at the deadline and for a long time and I've looked forward to the return we could get for Green. But as time has passed, I've grown to question the idea.

I definitely share you're concerns about how an utter lack of puck moving Dmen will impact our forwards.

Do Mantha, AA, Larkin, (svech etc) stagnate without a PMD getting them the puck?
What happens to the Trade Value of Nyquist and Tatar?
Do we have a chance at Tavares (or lesser forwards for that matter) without a capable PMD?

On many levels losing Green without a replacement will hurt but ultimately we need future assets.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best case scenario is to trade him and find a way to bring him back in the summer at lower cap hit.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Much has been discussed about our situation at the trade deadline and Mike Green has been at the forefront. As a veteran right-handed defenseman with offensive capabilities, there's no doubt he'd be highly coveted. A 1st round pick would be the likely return. I've been a large proponent of selling at the deadline and for a long time and I've looked forward to the return we could get for Green. But as time has passed, I've grown to question the idea.

Why? Two reasons.

First and most importantly - the state of our blueline sans Green. The highest scoring defenseman behind Green is the immobile Niklas Kronwall on pace for a whopping 20 points. After that, we have the likes of Jensen, Daley, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Ouellet and Witkowski combined for an abysmal 33 points (8 more than Green). We probably already have the worst d-core in the league. Take out Green and we might be looking at a historically terrible group of defenseman. Which is great for tanking - but that's where my second point comes in.

The second point in the case for keeping Mike Green is player development. It has less to do with the "winning culture" mantra and more to do with proper support players for our emerging core. Green is the only defenseman who can think at the level of our emerging youth (his chemistry with Larkin is tremendous). I fear the repercussions of losing Green and having even less skill and offensive stability on the back end. Would Larkin, Athanasiou, Mantha, etc. develop into the players we see them becoming? I'm not sure, but it definitely makes it a lot less likely.

To go along with this thought process, take a look at some of our defenseman in the minors - Hronek, Saarijarvi, Cholowski and others. Not only is Green an established presence to positively influence these kids (call it veteran presence if you'd like), but we might actually have a solid group of defenseman - at least in terms of transition and offensive prowess - in a few years if you include Green in that mix.

I guess the real question is how much belief you have in our current crop of youth. I am all for the high draft picks, but it takes creativity to build a contender. Simply earning high draft picks, at the expense of our current crop of emerging players, doesn't seem like a winning formula.

This is not to say we shouldn't sell at the deadline, but to say there might be better strategies in doing so.

I've made that point before and I completely agree.

Without Green, it will be like our forwards are PKing all game long. It will be awful for them and I can definitely imagine it hurting their development.

Have you ever been the best player by far on a beer league team in any sport? You are constantly chasing the play. You only learn defense. You forget how to receive a pass. You forget how to participate in a strategic play. You initiate a give n go only to immediately have to rush back to your own end.

It's f***ing depressing.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Yes, the team should definitely prioritize another long term contract for a 32+ year old player.

I don't think your argument for his ability to help Larkin/Mantha/whoever is necessarily bad, but you can't keep desperately clinging to every single veteran just to keep the kids 'safe'. move him and hope that Hronek/Cholo/Saarijarvi/whoever can start to fill the void next season. If none of them can, Green's influence wouldn't be relevant, anyway, as the team would be another 10 years from contending.

I have to disagree. Losing green would hurt our posestion game, which in turn hurts our forwards.

I vote to keep Green. You have to stay competitive during a rebuild. It’s key.

 

[Go Wings]

I have to disagree. Losing green would hurt our posestion game, which in turn hurts our forwards.

I vote to keep Green. You have to stay competitive during a rebuild. It’s key.

We have literally no cap space to keep him. Moving him at the deadline is the best option.

 

[Henkka]

I vote to keep Green. You have to stay competitive during a rebuild. It’s key.

Ok, so tie goes to the veteran, and we let Cholowski and Hronek sit on the bench?

I would put the kids on the ice, when we finally have better wave of good kids coming.

And let Kronwall mentor them.

Green is horrible defensively and I don't want any of our kids learn any bad own-end-habits from him.

 

[Wings4Life]

There is no case. He has value, and has got to go.

 

[Winger98]

Ok, so tie goes to the veteran, and we let Cholowski and Hronek sit on the bench?

I would put the kids on the ice, when we finally have better wave of good kids coming.

And let Kronwall mentor them.

Green is horrible defensively and I don't want any of our kids learn any bad own-end-habits from him.

If Kronwall is back. I think he will be, but folks keep floating this idea that he won't bother for just $1.75m. I'd show up for that paycheck, though. I'd be surprised if the Wings put both Cholo and Hronek in Detroit next year, though. I wouldn't be against it, but I'd be surprised by it. I could see both on it by season's end, though.

I'm really hoping they clean up GR a bit, too.

 

[ShelbyZ]

If Kronwall is back. I think he will be, but folks keep floating this idea that he won't bother for just $1.75m. I'd show up for that paycheck, though. I'd be surprised if the Wings put both Cholo and Hronek in Detroit next year, though. I wouldn't be against it, but I'd be surprised by it. I could see both on it by season's end, though.

I'm really hoping they clean up GR a bit, too.

The only way he doesn't get that paycheck is if he officially retires. If he "LTIRetires", he still gets his full salary. So the "not bothering" part is tied more to risking his body/knee issues with the rigors of another NHL season for a lower salary, or sit at home and collect that same lower salary.

As far as Cholo and Hronek, like any Red Wings young dman you probably have to burn at least two, if not all, of your waiver exempt years in GR before they consider leaving a spot open for you.

With cap and roster space to burn, there's no scenario where Holland doesn't sign a UFA dman this summer.

He probably doesn't get into the Carlson sweepstakes, but without Green, Holland probably kicks the tires on a younger PMD option like De Haan or Moore, before settling on a Daley like deal with someone like Hamhuis or Enstrom. If Kronwall LTIRretires as well, Holland probably doubles down and grabs two UFA dmen... Quincey probably gets a PTO too...

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I vote to keep Green. You have to stay competitive during a rebuild. It’s key.

Only one team has ever successfully rebuilt while staying competitive. Every other rebuild involved tearing down.

Given the historical evidence, I don't see how anyone could support trying to stay competitive.

 

[Redder Winger]

It's as if... dare I say it... Holland knows what hes doing???

So you think if Helm becomes a fourth liner in years 4 and 5 of the contract - then he becomes trade bait?

Bait for f***ing who?

 

[Hammettf2b]

So you think if Helm becomes a fourth liner in years 4 and 5 of the contract - then he becomes trade bait?

Bait for ****ing who?

Becomes a 4th liner? He's already a 4th liner its just the team sucks so bad he doesn't play a checking role. Come 4-5 years from now if we don't get the talent to move Helm to the 4th line permanently then we haven't been making any progress. If Helm is still as tenacious as he is now, I think it would be quite easy to move him especially with some money retained.

Edit: Also, I was more saying that because most of us don't know the real reasons why things are done. They're are reasons why GM's do certain things. Not saying Holland has done a good job, just saying we prob don't know the full details on everything he does and why he does it.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

So you think if Helm becomes a fourth liner in years 4 and 5 of the contract - then he becomes trade bait?

Bait for ****ing who?

The Cleveland Browns.

 

[Winger98]

The only way he doesn't get that paycheck is if he officially retires. If he "LTIRetires", he still gets his full salary. So the "not bothering" part is tied more to risking his body/knee issues with the rigors of another NHL season for a lower salary, or sit at home and collect that same lower salary.

As far as Cholo and Hronek, like any Red Wings young dman you probably have to burn at least two, if not all, of your waiver exempt years in GR before they consider leaving a spot open for you.

With cap and roster space to burn, there's no scenario where Holland doesn't sign a UFA dman this summer.

He probably doesn't get into the Carlson sweepstakes, but without Green, Holland probably kicks the tires on a younger PMD option like De Haan or Moore, before settling on a Daley like deal with someone like Hamhuis or Enstrom. If Kronwall LTIRretires as well, Holland probably doubles down and grabs two UFA dmen... Quincey probably gets a PTO too...

Yeah, and I'm saying I think Kronwall gets on the ice for that paycheck. Same with Z. Everyone just writes off the last year or two because of the money, but these guys are pro athletes for a reason. It tends to take a LOT to get them out of whatever sport they're in.

Agree about pretty much everything else. Not my choice for what I'd want the Wings to do, but it's what I'm expecting. We'll probably keep Jensen and XO around, too, invite Sulak over again, etc. and then try to cram 10 D onto GR.

 

[Ezekial]

I hadn't opened this thread yet as there is no case for keeping Mike Green, and I still hold that opinion.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Green is horrible defensively and I don't want any of our kids learn any bad own-end-habits from him.

You don't have to play defense as often when your teammate can hit you with a tape-to-tape pass.

It drives me soooooooo f***ing crazy every time Jensen or Ouellet or... well, anyone really, winds up a big slapper in the neutral zone with no opposition pressure whatsoever and just cranks it into the end boards.

Pass the goddamn puck.

 

[TheMule93]

Green's issue is that he often forgoes the simple easy play in favor of trying something more fancy which sometimes is great and you say nice job greener, but half the time it also leads to a turnover. He needs to keep it simple, but he's like 32 he is what he is

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

No case should be made.

I will listen to the case for bringing him back as a UFA if we can somehow do that and get all of our RFAs done.

 

[FireBird71]

How do we afford him with our RFA's that we have to re-sign?

We don't

 

[kliq]

We don't

Out of curiosity, how much do you anticipate our 5 RFA's getting?

 

[MTU hockey]

Here's a different scenario, you trade Green at the deadline and you sign AA, Mantha, and Larkin to cheapish bridge deals. Don't sign any patch job UFA's that are 30 or over in free agency (and no more than a 1 year deal) and roll with whoever we already have under contract on defense for next season. The young forwards aren't magically going to forget how to play offense after a few seasons even if the defense is completely inept at moving the puck. The young forwards stats will most likely suffer while on their bridge deals and you could be able to resign them cheaper for their next contracts that eat up UFA years. Then as more talented puck movers are drafted and added to the lineup over the next several years they will in turn help the forwards be more productive.

I don't think not having a legit PMD will hurt the forwards long term, and ultimately whats going to help them is getting a bonafide #1,2, and 3 defenseman. As the saying goes, a rising tide lifts all boats

 

[kliq]

Here's a different scenario, you trade Green at the deadline and you sign AA, Mantha, and Larkin to cheapish bridge deals. Don't sign any patch job UFA's that are 30 or over in free agency (and no more than a 1 year deal) and roll with whoever we already have under contract on defense for next season. The young forwards aren't magically going to forget how to play offense after a few seasons even if the defense is completely inept at moving the puck. The young forwards stats will most likely suffer while on their bridge deals and you could be able to resign them cheaper for their next contracts that eat up UFA years. Then as more talented puck movers are drafted and added to the lineup over the next several years they will in turn help the forwards be more productive.

I don't think not having a legit PMD will hurt the forwards long term, and ultimately whats going to help them is getting a bonafide #1,2, and 3 defenseman. As the saying goes, a rising tide lifts all boats

Agreed with the over 30 thing. As far as bridge deals go, with a guy like Larkin that could really bite you in the ass.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Yeah, and I'm saying I think Kronwall gets on the ice for that paycheck. Same with Z. Everyone just writes off the last year or two because of the money, but these guys are pro athletes for a reason. It tends to take a LOT to get them out of whatever sport they're in.

Agree about pretty much everything else. Not my choice for what I'd want the Wings to do, but it's what I'm expecting. We'll probably keep Jensen and XO around, too, invite Sulak over again, etc. and then try to cram 10 D onto GR.

Agree. I just thought you were saying he wouldn't get paid if he went the LTIR route.

As far as Jensen/Ouellet, I can see Holland making one of them expendable if he thinks he can fit more than one UFA dman that he would view as an upgrade... And in reality a whole lot of the dmen on the UFA market would be an upgrade over Jensen/Ouellet.

A couple of *affordable* PMDs on short term (1-3 year) deals wouldn't hurt, especially if they won't look out of place in a top 4 role. It's crazy to think that once Green is gone, Daley is the best dman among a group of guys that with a good team would either be spare parts or in the AHL....

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Out of curiosity, how much do you anticipate our 5 RFA's getting?

Realistically i see Larkin getting $6.5 million Mantha $5.5 million AA $2.5 to $3 million Bertuzzi $850,000 and Frk $1.25 million so probably around $17 million to sign our 5 RFA's i would imagine.

 

[ElysiumAB]

Wings are 5+ years away from potentially having a quality team again.

Assuming you mean making the playoffs with a realistic chance at winning a round or two, it can happen much faster than that. 5 years sounds silly to me.