The Atlantic Division

[KingBilly]

Do people see it that way? You're the first person I've seen put forward the argument that Tampa, Boston, and Toronto are bottom feeding, even just to refute it.

Actually, I think this is the most even the divisions and conferences have seemed in as long as I remember. The Pacific has taken a bit of a tumble. Don't see any of them winning the cup and that's been the strongest division for a long time. I would actually say the east is the better conference now and I'd sooner put my money on Tampa or Toronto than Nashville or St. Louis or Winnipeg to win the cup. I think it'll be Pittsburgh or a team out of the Atlantic hoisting it.

I feel like you're inventing a criticism of the Atlantic not many people have even thought of.

 

[joe dirte]

Do people see it that way? You're the first person I've seen put forward the argument that Tampa, Boston, and Toronto are bottom feeding, even just to refute it.

Actually, I think this is the most even the divisions and conferences have seemed in as long as I remember. The Pacific has taken a bit of a tumble. Don't see any of them winning the cup and that's been the strongest division for a long time. I would actually say the east is the better conference now and I'd sooner put my money on Tampa or Toronto than Nashville or St. Louis or Winnipeg to win the cup. I think it'll be Pittsburgh or a team out of the Atlantic hoisting it.

I feel like you're inventing a criticism of the Atlantic not many people have even thought of.

there are PILES of posts saying the only reason the leafs (and to a lesser extent boston and tampa) have so many points is that they play so many games against those bottom 5 teams. it's been pointed out dozens of times they havent had many games yet against them, and even that doesn't deter people.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Yes i did. I was banking on all three rookies to have solid sophomore seasons. they simply had to much talent to slump. we signed Marleau and Hainsey, two reliable and predictable veterans who i thought would help lead the youth, which they have. Additionally, something that i feel is over looked is last year Toronto had a much more difficult schedule. They played something like 18 back to backs which in a condensed season is ridiculous. This year they have i think 11 or 12 B2B's. And lastly, there was no way there terrible shoot out record and blown leads would continue. Now maby i didnt expect the 101 point pace, but i did expect an improvement points wise compared to last year.

I had the Leafs at 103. I figured an extra point every 10 games wasn't asking too much.

 

[drewjenks]

A few numbers about "elite", games played vs what type of opponents, and the difference between Boston and Toronto:

1. Bruins' total games vs teams currently in playoffs position: 27.
Breakdown: vs East 9-3-3... vs West 8-2-2. Total 17-5-5 (= 722 pts%).
Percentage out of total games: 52% (27 out of 52).

Toronto's total games vs teams currently in playoffs position: 26.
Breakdown: vs East 6-6-1... vs West 7-5-1. Total 13-11-2 (= 538 pts%).
Percentage out of total games: 46% (26 out of 56).

2. Other team stats:
- points %: Boston 712 (2nd best)... Toronto 616 (9th best)...
- points pace: Boston 117... Toronto 101
- goals for / game: Boston 3.27 (4th)... Toronto 3.16 (6th)
- goals against / game: Boston 2.35 (1st)... Toronto 2.77 (11th)
- PP%: Boston 22.0 (6th)... Toronto 20.6 (16th)
- PK%: Boston 82.9 (4th)... Toronto 82.6 (7th)
- shot against / game: Boston 29.1 (1st)... Toronto 33.9 (28th)

View attachment 96975

3. Individual stats:

- ppg, top 10, combined teams: 1. Marchand 1.31... 2. Bergeron & Pastrnak 0.98... 4. Matthews 0.93... 5. Krejci & Heinen 0.79... 7. Nylander 0.73... 8. Spooner 0.69... 9. Krug 0.67... 10. Marner 0.66.

- goal tending: Rask 925% 2.09... Andersen 922% 2.62...

To confirm, what you intended to say was......

1) Boston is better than Toronto. They have a MUCH better record against elite teams.
2) Toronto only trails Boston by 5 points. That does not do Boston justice. Refer to point #1.

To be honest, what you actually said was......

1) Boston performs much better than Toronto against elite teams.
2) Despite this, Boston is only 5 points ahead of Toronto in the standings.
3) Statistics prove that Boston performs much worse than Toronto against inferior teams.
4) Toronto is an inferior team to Boston.
5) Boston does not perform well against inferior teams like Toronto.
6) Statistics prove that Toronto will sweep Boston in the playoffs.

Now give it to me straight.....are you a closet Leaf fan?

 

[Cotton]

And yet, I just posted the numbers in relation to playing the other 15 playoffs teams (I think it's self explanatory that they're the better teams, or are they not?) as of now and the difference between Boston and Toronto is a 722% vs 538%, or from a 118 points pace vs a 88 points pace. Do you think that a 17-5-5 is pretty similar to a 13-11-2?

Furthermore, I posted the most important team stats, and they are all in favor of Boston rather than Toronto. Last but not least, team wise, I posted a table (I found it on another team's forum, not my product) that shows that defense wise, Boston is probably the #1 team.

Heck, even individual stats are all in favor of the Bruins...

I don’t accept the arguments that involve numbers that are dynamic such as vs playoff teams or pace, these aren’t what is numbers, they’re could be numbers to a what is question. Pace changes and some teams who were in a playoff spot no longer are, and vice versa. I’ve already shown Boston benefitted way, waaay more than Toronto by “beating on easy competition” and aquiring a large percentage of their points at the time from those lopsided matches.

So even if I accepted (vs playoff teams) as a valid argument the stats show Boston has also taken advantage of weak competition to a much higher degree, with it having contributed much more to their overall point total, this means that Toronto has faced on average more difficult comp and acquired a higher percentage of their points from them. That’s what is.

Individual stats have no place in a team argument, but hot streaks and facing bad teams more frequently can have an statistically amplifying effect, and I believe that’s a big contribution. Otherwise Boston being better by degree in other categories like PP/PK Shots for and against ect can be explained by them being the better team.

The issue isn’t if Boston is better than Toronto or not, they are. It’s that you insist there is a great chasm between these teams, that one is elite and the other average. But when considering pertinent stats and context they are not that far apart.

Different ends of the same tier imo.

 

[LeafsNation75]

To confirm, what you intended to say was......

1) Boston is better than Toronto. They have a MUCH better record against elite teams.
2) Toronto only trails Boston by 5 points. That does not do Boston justice. Refer to point #1.

To be honest, what you actually said was......

1) Boston performs much better than Toronto against elite teams.
2) Despite this, Boston is only 5 points ahead of Toronto in the standings.
3) Statistics prove that Boston performs much worse than Toronto against inferior teams.
4) Toronto is an inferior team to Boston.
5) Boston does not perform well against inferior teams like Toronto.
6) Statistics prove that Toronto will sweep Boston in the playoffs.

Now give it to me straight.....are you a closet Leaf fan?

I just wanted to mention last season it was the reverse where Toronto had a similar point lead over Boston in the Atlantic with six games in hand. Eventually both teams finished tied with 95 points, so that only proves the same thing can happen again only this time to the Bruins.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I don’t accept the arguments that involve numbers that are dynamic such as vs playoff teams or pace, these aren’t what is numbers, they’re could be numbers to a what is question. Pace changes and some teams who were in a playoff spot no longer are, and vice versa. I’ve already shown Boston benefitted way, waaay more than Toronto by “beating on easy competition” and aquiring a large percentage of their points at the time from those lopsided matches.

So even if I accepted (vs playoff teams) as a valid argument the stats show Boston has also taken advantage of weak competition to a much higher degree, with it having contributed much more to their overall point total, this means that Toronto has faced on average more difficult comp and acquired a higher percentage of their points from them. That’s what is.

Individual stats have no place in a team argument, but hot streaks and facing bad teams more frequently can have an statistically amplifying effect, and I believe that’s a big contribution. Otherwise Boston being better by degree in other categories like PP/PK Shots for and against ect can be explained by them being the better team.

The issue isn’t if Boston is better than Toronto or not, they are. It’s that you insist there is a great chasm between these teams, that one is elite and the other average. But when considering pertinent stats and context they are not that far apart.

Different ends of the same tier imo.

Up until last Saturday the Leafs had won six straight games against the Bruins going back to last season. So one Boston win against Toronto doesn't make them a much better team despite their recent record against other teams or make them a lock to defeat Toronto should they meet in the playoffs.

 

[BruinLVGA]

To confirm, what you intended to say was......

1) Boston is better than Toronto. They have a MUCH better record against elite teams.
2) Toronto only trails Boston by 5 points. That does not do Boston justice. Refer to point #1.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, one little detail that is missing here: FOUR games in hand. I wonder why you don't mention that?

You fellas seem to conveniently forget (IN EVERY THREAD...) about games in hands, production in relation to games played, that total points production is > only goals, etc etc.

In simple words, you guys always isolate a small portion of something in order to peddle something, completely disregarding the complete picture because that would negate your point.

 

[bukwas]

Even as a fan of an Atlantic team(Leafs) I find it by far the least interesting division to follow this season.
The top 3 finishers have been obvious for too long to keep it interesting. The only hope to provide Atlantic interest is maybe Florida making a run at a wildcard.

The Atlantic teams will likely be extremely high on peoples radar once the playoffs start though.

 

[drewjenks]

So I can close my argument with:

"Statistics prove that Toronto will sweep Boston in the playoffs."

And your come back of choice is........4 games in hand.........

ONLY . IN . BOSTON
Trademark

 

[BruinLVGA]

I don’t accept the arguments that involve numbers that are dynamic such as vs playoff teams or pace, these aren’t what is numbers, they’re could be numbers to a what is question. Pace changes and some teams who were in a playoff spot no longer are, and vice versa. I’ve already shown Boston benefitted way, waaay more than Toronto by “beating on easy competition” and aquiring a large percentage of their points at the time from those lopsided matches.

So even if I accepted (vs playoff teams) as a valid argument the stats show Boston has also taken advantage of weak competition to a much higher degree, with it having contributed much more to their overall point total, this means that Toronto has faced on average more difficult comp and acquired a higher percentage of their points from them. That’s what is.

Individual stats have no place in a team argument, but hot streaks and facing bad teams more frequently can have an statistically amplifying effect, and I believe that’s a big contribution. Otherwise Boston being better by degree in other categories like PP/PK Shots for and against ect can be explained by them being the better team.

The issue isn’t if Boston is better than Toronto or not, they are. It’s that you insist there is a great chasm between these teams, that one is elite and the other average. But when considering pertinent stats and context they are not that far apart.

Different ends of the same tier imo.

The variance in who is in a playoffs position isn't as dynamic as you make it to be this season and you know that VERY WELL.

I will repeat it: we played more teams who are in a playoffs spot than you did (27 vs 26) & even more in relation to total games played (52% vs 46%), we have a way superior record vs those better teams (17-5-5 vs 13-11-2). This is self explanatory.

About "taking advantage of weaker competition", you did: you played 30 games vs teams not in a playoffs spot, we played 25 games vs those.
And about taking advantage, how about this: vs Western teams outside of the playoffs we are 3-5, you are 10-3-1. See, I too can isolate certain data and make an argument like yours.

And yes, there's a chasm. 117 points pace vs 101 is a chasm. That pace, when we played 52% of games vs better teams when you only had 46% of your games vs them, makes it more of a chasm. And that chasm gets even bigger when one considers that we lost 130+ men games and we fielded only 70% of the team in half the games we played.

 

[BruinLVGA]

So I can close my argument with:

"Statistics prove that Toronto will sweep Boston in the playoffs."

And your come back of choice is........4 games in hand.........

ONLY . IN . BOSTON
Trademark

This doesn't make absolutely any sense whatsoever. Are you OK?

Games in hand is an extremely important thing when describing the points difference in the standings. It's not a small detail.
I don't understand how that relates to the playoffs or even a sweep though.
What I do know though, is that if Boston for example plays those 4 games at a lousy 500 pts%, those 5 points become 9.

 

[nobody]

Bruins are a joke, Tampa is a joke, Leafs are a joke. The real deal of the Atlantic are the Buffalo Sabres AINEC.

 

[Cotton]

The variance in who is in a playoffs position isn't as dynamic as you make it to be this season and you know that VERY WELL.

I will repeat it: we played more teams who are in a playoffs spot than you did (27 vs 26) & even more in relation to total games played (52% vs 46%), we have a way superior record vs those better teams (17-5-5 vs 13-11-2). This is self explanatory.

About "taking advantage of weaker competition", you did: you played 30 games vs teams not in a playoffs spot, we played 25 games vs those.
And about taking advantage, how about this: vs Western teams outside of the playoffs we are 3-5, you are 10-3-1. See, I too can isolate certain data and make an argument like yours.

And yes, there's a chasm. 117 points pace vs 101 is a chasm. That pace, when we played 52% of games vs better teams when you only had 46% of your games vs them, makes it more of a chasm. And that chasm gets even bigger when one considers that we lost 130+ men games and we fielded only 70% of the team in half the games we played.

If you want to be accurate you would tabulate the opponents each team faced that were in a playoff position at the time the game occurred, otherwise your argument is just more pace talk and fluff, chasms based upon what ifs, based upon inaccurate numbers.

 

[BruinLVGA]

If you want to be accurate you would tabulate the opponents each team faced that were in a playoff position at the time the game occurred, otherwise your argument is just more pace talk and fluff, chasms based upon what ifs, based upon inaccurate numbers.

Let's talk how much you are going to pay me for that work and we can talk.

 

[BayStreetBully]

9th.

Aaaand this is why you don’t try to be a smartass.

Like that winter guy who still thinks Ottawa is Ontario’s team lol.

 

[Heritage]

Aaaand this is why you don’t try to be a smartass.

Like that winter guy who still thinks Ottawa is Ontario’s team lol.

Ottawa was terrible tonight, if Condon didn't play well after they pulled Anderson it could have been 9-3 for Toronto.

I cannot believe that anyone would think Ottawa was Ontario's team, they can't even fill their arena.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Ottawa was terrible tonight, if Condon didn't play well after they pulled Anderson it could have been 9-3 for Toronto.

I cannot believe that anyone would think Ottawa was Ontario's team, they can't even fill their arena.

Neither can I, but that appears to be the hill winter guy wants to die on.

 

[drewjenks]

This doesn't make absolutely any sense whatsoever. Are you OK?

Games in hand is an extremely important thing when describing the points difference in the standings. It's not a small detail.
I don't understand how that relates to the playoffs or even a sweep though.
What I do know though, is that if Boston for example plays those 4 games at a lousy 500 pts%, those 5 points become 9.

But whats the diff? We both make the playoffs. And your argument has already proven the Leafs will sweep the Bruins in 4. Do you not understand what you wrote? Read it again .

 

[naruto]

Boston so elite they got whupped by buffalo ahaha

 

[topshelf15]

Ottawa was terrible tonight, if Condon didn't play well after they pulled Anderson it could have been 9-3 for Toronto.

I cannot believe that anyone would think Ottawa was Ontario's team, they can't even fill their arena.

Meh we are having a bad year there is no reason to pile on.....We could easily be right back in the thick of it next year

 

[Cotton]

Let's talk how much you are going to pay me for that work and we can talk.

Right, so until that’s ascertained your argument, which is based on unknown numbers, has no legs.

PS: I asked you already what is your definition of "elite team", but you didn't answer. I would like to know so that I can go and a) check if your parameters seem logical and b) go check the Bruins numbers to see if they fit said parameters. So, again, what are your parameters to define a team as "elite"?

I’ve never thought about it, I suppose a team that’s elite doesn’t get whupped by the Buffalo Sabres though, lol.

Note: I don’t think Toronto is elite, so when they lose to the Sabres too this posts can’t bite me in the ass.

 

[joe dirte]

Meh we are having a bad year there is no reason to pile on.....We could easily be right back in the thick of it next year

not with that team, not a chance. i suspect it gets even worse next year. lots of reason to believe it will.

condon could be starter.

Phaneuf continuing to become even worse.

karlsson may be on his way out the door and might not last the year.

bobby Ryan a year older and stinkier too.

not much help on the way. no one in the farm showing they are ready to contribute in a significant way.

and there could even be some selling by the sens at the deadline. leaving an even worse team to finish the year.

 

[topshelf15]

not with that team, not a chance. i suspect it gets even worse next year. lots of reason to believe it will.

condon could be starter.

Phaneuf continuing to become even worse.

karlsson may be on his way out the door and might not last the year.

bobby Ryan a year older and stinkier too.

not much help on the way. no one in the farm showing they are ready to contribute in a significant way.

and there could even be some selling by the sens at the deadline. leaving an even worse team to finish the year.

Meh, these are things that could possibly happen or not.....As far as not much help on the way we have already seen some great nhl games by both White and Chabot this season,add in a potential lottery pick along with kids like Brown,Batherson,Formenton etc,etc ..And we arent in as hopeless a position as many would believe,there are 7 teams that made the playoff last season that could miss this year...Think that wont happen again next season??

 

[joe dirte]

Let's talk how much you are going to pay me for that work and we can talk.

who really cares? its quite clear the top 3 teams of the atlantic are the class of the east. its probable that the team from the Atlantic comes out of the east. Boston and toronto could go either way and either team COULD beat tampa, but they'll be more difficult to take out.

I personally LOVE the way the leafs are playing this. spreading the ice time around so nobody is burnt out (and it helps theyre so young too). tonnes of home games down the stretch. I think Babcock has been gearing them up and prepping them for the playoffs since day 1 of this season, and I think they've got a great chance in taking the east. as do Boston and especially tampa.

the Atlantic bracket of the playoffs is shaping up to be an amazing battle.

but even if the leafs dont, with the degense that the marlies have been developping of late, the next few yeats are going to be AMAZING for the leafs.

and every time fans from other teams try to tear them down, it puts a huge grin on my face.