Pre-Game Talk: The All Purpose Off Day Thread

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vodeni

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Oct 27, 2010
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I just saw that the Pens are dead last so far in SA/60. I am sure Sully is aware of that, and I think we were not good in this department in playoffs (and still won) but boy if this trend continues throughout the season our goalies will be dead tired, not to mantion how many wins we can slvage with this kind of game. The team defense is not good, none of the four lines do particularly good job in transition defense and backchecking, our d-man are backing up and leaving way too much space ...It is something to monitior and see when they would flip the switchand start playing little more controlled game
 

Shaftception

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Apr 6, 2011
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I just saw that the Pens are dead last so far in SA/60. I am sure Sully is aware of that, and I think we were not good in this department in playoffs (and still won) but boy if this trend continues throughout the season our goalies will be dead tired, not to mantion how many wins we can slvage with this kind of game. The team defense is not good, none of the four lines do particularly good job in transition defense and backchecking, our d-man are backing up and leaving way too much space ...It is something to monitior and see when they would flip the switchand start playing little more controlled game

I'm sure he's aware of it but I'm not sure there's anything that can be done barring either a system change or everyone on the team finding the legs they apparently lost two summers ago.

The reason they were so dominant in that 16 run was because of their team speed, both on the forecheck and backcheck. They were able to keep the puck for long stretches due to out skating opponents thus lowering shots against, and when they gave up possession they were able to get in the face of puck carriers immediately forcing quick decisions, poor shooting lanes and turnovers. During the last half-period of game 6 in San Jose they damn near put on a clinic in forechecking to close the game out. The few times the Sharks were even able to gain the zone they barely had time to breathe before a forechecking Penguin was threatening pressure. Their speed was just too overwhelming to handle.

Unfortunately they proved last year they weren't actually conserving energy for the playoffs like I and some others had hoped going into the playoffs since they never again really established that same level of speed for any noticeable length of time. The possession metrics from year to year pretty well illustrated that. Part of that was the loss of Letang, but even in the regular season they saw a non-insignificant drop when compared to the streak following Sullivan's hire.

It's not all doom and gloom of course, they somehow still won again despite the subpar possession stats, but it's a realistic possibility that they may never be able to duplicate that same level of team speed and thus possession dominance again going forward. If so Sully will have to fine tune his system to take this decline in speed into account in order to try to reign in the shots against. To his credit they did do this to a degree by collapsing more in order to insulate the net front, but it expectedly hurt their possession and breakouts due to not challenging shooters as much as well as starting rushes up ice deeper in the defensive zone (thankfully not to the extreme degree Johnston had them wallowing in).

That 16 run and the level of speed they played with might just turn out to be have been a flash in the pan, likely from the adrenaline of a new start under a new coach, and not a realistic expectation of their peak potential going forward. They proved last year it can still be enough to win, but it won't be near as pretty.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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Isn't this weekend another back-to-back situation? I'm anxious (both good and bad) to see how Niemi does in his start.

Does Sully go with Murray against Florida (the weaker team) and let Niemi face Tampa? Or does Sully risk going 0-2 this weekend by starting Niemi versus a worse team at the risk of losing that game anyway, and having Murray up against a strong Tampa squad?
 

Speaking Moistly

What a terrible image.
Feb 19, 2013
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Isn't this weekend another back-to-back situation? I'm anxious (both good and bad) to see how Niemi does in his start.

Does Sully go with Murray against Florida (the weaker team) and let Niemi face Tampa? Or does Sully risk going 0-2 this weekend by starting Niemi versus a worse team at the risk of losing that game anyway, and having Murray up against a strong Tampa squad?

Murray against Tampa imo.... or Jarry gets called up and we don't see Niemi.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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Murray against Tampa imo.... or Jarry gets called up and we don't see Niemi.

But then you risk going 0-2. Even with Murray in, Tampa's on fire and the Pens are still a little rough defensively. If you put Murray versus Florida, it's a good chance the Pens win, concede the Tampa game, but come away 1-1.

Or maybe a miracle happens and Niemi actually plays like an NHL goalie at some point.
 

Speaking Moistly

What a terrible image.
Feb 19, 2013
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But then you risk going 0-2. Even with Murray in, Tampa's on fire and the Pens are still a little rough defensively. If you put Murray versus Florida, it's a good chance the Pens win, concede the Tampa game, but come away 1-1.

Or maybe a miracle happens and Niemi actually plays like an NHL goalie at some point.

I know but it's also giving them the best chance of going 2-0 and hopefully aiding the fatigue. Florida gives Niemi the best chance of winning a game and some semblance of getting back on track, too.


...and if Niemi is going to be too bad to be a backup I'd rather get it over with early on than having excuses.
 

Gurglesons

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Really got to agree with Andy's statements in the GDT.

Andy99 said:
I just want to point out the following facts for people who think the Pens start slow and need to do so to conserve energy for later in the season...or at least not worry about defense now. They didn't do that last year and still won the Cup

Last season they were coming off a Cup too and everyone was gunning for them then as well. They had 9 games they played in October and they won six of them. In those 9 games, they gave up 27 goals, a three goal average per game. They were playing without Crosby for much of that time and Murray

Fast forward to this month where they've already given up 29 goals in 7 games...they're giving up over 4 goals a game. Even if you say Chicago game was fluky and it would have been more like a 5-1 Chicago win under normal circumstances, that's still 3.43 goals per game. That's much higher and much worse defense than they gave up last year early on.

Just saying that they were pretty consistently mediocre on defense all throughout last year and never picked it up, even in the playoffs. How consistently can they keep doing that and win, relying on abnormally high shooting percentages that they had last year? I think it's difficult to say they'll have that kind of luck again this year. They already haven't
The big question I'm starting to ask is.. is this just what Sullivan's system looks like. I thought last year was the anomaly, but in reality maybe the adrenaline in 2016 is the true anomaly.

Or Lovejoy is the lynchpin to our defense and that is why our front office threw that deal at Dumo.
 

Andy99

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Jun 26, 2017
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Really got to agree with Andy's statements in the GDT.


The big question I'm starting to ask is.. is this just what Sullivan's system looks like. I thought last year was the anomaly, but in reality maybe the adrenaline in 2016 is the true anomaly.

Or Lovejoy is the lynchpin to our defense and that is why our front office threw that deal at Dumo.

I think Sully's system ideally looks like the 2015-16 run when everyone is playing it properly, with energy, shotblocking etc. But as others have noted, it's difficult to play consistently at high level because of the effort required.

I personally think the team would be better served playing a more simple, less risky defensive structure until, say, February. That would produce less shots/goals against and also less rushes and offense. And hopefully it would also produce less injuries (since less shotblocking). I think it may preserve more energy as well.
Then turn it on for the playoff run. We'll be surprising people and hopefully playing it really well, and we'll be set up for a nice playoff run...and threepeat
 

WayneSid9987

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Nov 24, 2009
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On the back end, i think they are fine. All(almost everyone) swift skating defenders that, if you have a very good 2-way 3C, everything looks much better in terms of the minutes doled out to Sid and sometimes Geno. The defending abliity of the 5-man units/keeping them more fresh and on and on.

JR's been pretty capable here when he needs things. In him and Ventura, i trust.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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I don't think it's the players, Sully has been with Martin as his D coach this entire time, I'm not convinced Martin is the right guy for Sullivan's system or style of defense that is required to evolve with this team. I don't think Sarge is either. I wonder what Larry Robinson is up to. I belive his time with the Sharks ended last season, I thought he was still an assistant coach somewhere.

The defense just looks like it's not working as a unit. What stands out to me in 2016 is that the Pens played like a 5 man unit every shift. They have a disconnect with the defense this year, outside of Olli being the only defenseman on this team that is reading the play to jump up at the right time. They're misusing Schultz with Letang back and yeah...my concern is that this is repetitive behavior by this coaching staff. It's not something that is just out of nowhere.
 

StutzlesTapeJob

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Dec 22, 2008
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A few early season thoughts:

The conserve energy/turn it on concept is one of the most interesting in all of sports IMHO. It’s a paradox. You know the best dynasty like teams are patient in the reg season. Trust the process, trust experience, trust their leadership. It’s def true that when you play far more games than the avg team over a 3 year span, you can’t not acknowledge the toll that takes, and the need to ease off treating every game like the cup final.

At the same time, there is such a fine line between not overreacting and over expending energy vs. developing crippling habits.

I don’t know the answer. I don’t think there is a formula. But I do think navigating the challenge is what separates the best coaches ever from those who are just above average.

I would like to see us use these early games to develop our third and 4th lines and figure out our special teams. Productively conserve energy.


- The Defense.
I think our D will be ok. Total shots allowed is important, but quality of shots matters a lot too. Right now we are giving up way too many of both. In the playoffs though, not referencing a advanced metric, I think we end up fairly average in terms of high quality scoring chances allowed. (If someone has a metric saying otherwise I will say, “interesting, I guess I was wrong”)

Looking at the games so far this year, in zone coverage is bad. So is back pressure on entries. I think it’s more forwards than d men. Our d men are what they are, mobile and skilled. None are dominating space eaters. So if we don’t backcheck, and forwards don’t play well supporting and marking men in our zone, we look terrible. Against the rags, there was so much open space in the zone and no tight checking. I think that’s our problem more than anything.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
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In terms of the goals against, I am not concerned. In his last four appearances, Matt Murray is 4-0-0 with a 2.25 GAA and .929 Sv%. In other words, he's back to being Matt Murray.

That's all that matters, really. The Chicago game will leave a lot of defensive residue for several more games, statistically. Can't change that.

Also, we don't have a backup goaltender right now. We have a sieve. That also hurts the numbers.
 

Dread Pirate Roberts

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Jul 2, 2008
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Honestly, I don't really care if the Pens coast through these kinds of games for the rest of 2017 and the first month or two of 2018. They've played more hockey than anyone else in the world over the past two years, and they need to be able to bring it in the playoffs. If that means playing down to bad teams a little bit, so be it.

Someone made the assertion that playing this way makes the games 50-50 because the Pens could have lost them. It's true the Pens could have lost them, but it's not 50-50. Just because they come down to who finishes more chances and whose goalie plays better doesn't make them 50-50. The Pens have better finishers and a better goalie than bad teams. That's why the Pens are good and bad teams are bad. They will usually beat bad teams even if they play down to them.

Will they sometimes lose games they could have won if they played as hard as they will in the playoffs? Yes. Will I bitch about it when they do? Probably. Will it matter in the end? No, because whether the season is a success is 100% about where they finish in the playoffs, not about the seed they start with. Washington wins the Presidents Trophy and gets the #1 seed all the time, and what has that done for them?
 
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Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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In answer to various posts in the PGT -

We have the same number of points after 7 games as we did last season. Yes we had more injuries then, but this season we've had twice as many back to backs and road games in those 7 games as we did last season.

The defence was the 12th worse for GA/GP after 7 games last year. If we'd never played the Chicago game, we'd be 13th this year. If we'd only conceded 5 goals in that game (our worst GA in the opening 7 last year), we'd be joint 11th.

Unless you think the defence should be defined by one aberrantly awful game, our defence is in the same place comparative to the rest of the NHL as it was last season at this point. And our points pace is the same.

Hell, we were 4th last season after 7 games for number of times shorthanded too.

So far the numbers look really similar to last season. Still plenty of room for improvement in terms of defence and discipline, but it is pretty much where we were last year.
 

DegenX

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Aug 14, 2011
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Hunwick is no longer listed as being on IR. Maybe we'll get some sort of update after practice this afternoon.
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
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Really got to agree with Andy's statements in the GDT.


The big question I'm starting to ask is.. is this just what Sullivan's system looks like. I thought last year was the anomaly, but in reality maybe the adrenaline in 2016 is the true anomaly.

Or Lovejoy is the lynchpin to our defense and that is why our front office threw that deal at Dumo.

No... there has been more good than bad. You are saying last year was an anomaly as if they played a full healthy year. That's unfair. They were surviving by next man up mentality. I also think you missed Andy's point.

I do not want the guys going all-in on shotblocking until it's needed. Stay healthy. That's the goal. Stay healthy and accumulate points. That's all.
 

Vujtek

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Oct 7, 2007
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Hunwick is no longer listed as being on IR. Maybe we'll get some sort of update after practice this afternoon.

There's a 7-day minimum with the regular IR so I don't see how Hunwick can be taken off the IR. He played last Saturday so the earliest he could come off IR is this Saturday. Probably even later since the injury didn't even occur during last Saturday's game but later in practice and time on IR begins from the day of the injury.
 

Gurglesons

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No... there has been more good than bad. You are saying last year was an anomaly as if they played a full healthy year. That's unfair. They were surviving by next man up mentality. I also think you missed Andy's point.

I do not want the guys going all-in on shotblocking until it's needed. Stay healthy. That's the goal. Stay healthy and accumulate points. That's all.

Were we not missing Malkin in 15-16?

It isn't about shot blocking. It is about being consistently out shot for a year and a half. That is definitely something to observe and worry about.
 
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