RDS: The All Encompassing Bergevin Thread: "I know where we are going"

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Belial

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Oct 22, 2014
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The AHL is a 30-team league in which Lefevbre's teams are consistently amongst the worst. It doesn't matter whether those 30 teams are playing hockey, performing synchronized swimming, or making burritos. Whatever the hell they're doing in the AHL, Lefevbre ranks near the bottom of it. Based purely on measurable numbers and results, he is a bad AHL coach.

I'll ask again, are there different numbers or results which suggest he's a good coach?

Once again, I don't care about Sly but he's being judged on individual player progression and not on a team success base.

I'm not seeing players being ruined on that AHL team.

I see guys that are progressing!

We have given countless argument for why he is a center. I try to be like you and see it your way. Please convince me he is better at wing. Give us good reason that proves that he is more useful there.

And don't go with he's bad defensively because he also is at wing. And if that is your answer please tell us why he is so bad. What does he do wrong in your view. Because we expressed all of that in our posts.

Please convince me. Maybe I'll become the biggest defender that he should play wing if you explain it to me from your view with good example.

What is your argument? He produced more at center? That's a BS argument that was already been discussed.

Again, the reason I think he's more suited to the wing it's because his main weapon is his shot, he doesn't have great vision or great playmaking abilities.

The question should be who could be better. Development is not really about who was ruined.

But McCarron could be better and actually regressed in the Lefebvre system.

Leblanc is another guy who was better before spending some time in the ahl. He would not have become a superstar but et could have played on the third line if well developed.

Tinordi got his confidence shut un the AHL also. He did regress in his time in the AHL.

You could argue that those player would never have become superstar and I'd agree. But I do think that all those players could at least have played a role in the NHL if there development in the AHL would have been better.

McCarron lacks talent and speed, you can't coach those things.

Leblanc and Tinordi are busts! You should stop blaming coaching with those 2.

Tinordi couldn't process the NHL game, the play was happening too fast for him.

Leblanc lacked commitment from all the information gathered, there was no progression in his game.
 

Runner77

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I don't think those guys are very entertaining. There isn't any choice for radio. You want to listen to french radio after a guy. There's Dany Dube and McGuire who do their little commenting. Then you have Fournier shouting like a bozo.
Same with JC. If you want to listen to french habs talk around his time slot on the radio, that's all there is.

The best guests on 91.9FM are on their morning show. MAG, Labbé, Leclerc -- they provide a fresh outlook. They're on between 6 and 10AM. I'd recommend a listen if your schedule allows it (I didn't check what time it would be for you in Hong Kong). Otherwise, you can catch their podcasts here: 91.9 Sports : Du sport, le matin
 

le_sean

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Oct 21, 2006
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Of course Bergevin has a plan. It’s just a f***ing stupid one that will keep this team shitty.
 

Toene

Y'en aura pas de facile
Nov 17, 2014
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Once again, I don't care about Sly but he's being judged on individual player progression and not on a team success base.

I'm not seeing players being ruined on that AHL team.

I see guys that are progressing!



What is your argument? He produced more at center? That's a BS argument that was already been discussed.

Again, the reason I think he's more suited to the wing it's because his main weapon is his shot, he doesn't have great vision or great playmaking abilities.
.


Yes, Galchenyuk is not a good playmaker. Sucks at the center of the ice.

 

Belial

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Yes, Galchenyuk is not a good playmaker. Sucks at the center of the ice.



Again, you guys take everything so literally... I didn't say he's clueless but he's not a great playmaker, Drouin is better than him in that category.
 

Toene

Y'en aura pas de facile
Nov 17, 2014
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Again, you guys take everything so literally... I didn't say he's clueless but he's not a great playmaker, Drouin is better than him in that category.

Weird, I could've sweared they were equal in assists per game (Galchenyuk being better in assists/60) while Drouin gets more offensive opportunities. If it were true it would mean... *gasp* that Galchy is slightly better!
 

Belial

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Weird, I could've sweared they were equal in assists per game (Galchenyuk being better in assists/60) while Drouin gets more offensive opportunities. If it were true it would mean... *gasp* that Galchy is slightly better!

Come on man, Gally has 26 goals this season and Max has 17, you really think Gally is a better goalscorer than Max?
 

Belial

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If Max did some of the things that Gallagher does he would be a superstar.

You could say the same thing about a ton of players in the league.

But Gally it's Gally, it's what makes him the player he is. He wouldn't be in the league if he was not giving 120% every shift he's out there.
 

durojean

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May 29, 2007
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Once again, I don't care about Sly but he's being judged on individual player progression and not on a team success base.

I'm not seeing players being ruined on that AHL team.

I see guys that are progressing!



What is your argument? He produced more at center? That's a BS argument that was already been discussed.

Again, the reason I think he's more suited to the wing it's because his main weapon is his shot, he doesn't have great vision or great playmaking abilities.



McCarron lacks talent and speed, you can't coach those things.

but he was better coming out of junior than now... not normal


Leblanc and Tinordi are busts! You should stop blaming coaching with those 2.

Tinordi couldn't process the NHL game, the play was happening too fast for him.

but he was better coming out of junior than now... not normal

Leblanc lacked commitment from all the information gathered, there was no progression in his game.

I really don't think you are reading my answer when I speak about Galchenyuk at center.

Yes he is better statistically and that should be a factor but it's not all.

read carefully what I write right now because it's got nothing to do with statistics.

Galchenyuk is a shifty player on the ice. Meaning that it is difficult to read from which side he will enter in the offensive zone. But to use that strenght of his, he needs space that he doesn't have on the wing because of the board. That is why his zone entries are so much better from the center ice.

Galchenyuk does not have a really good acceleration at the NHL level. That is one of his weakness. If you put him at wing where you have to burn defensemen and go in the corner the get the puck and then place yourself in front of the net you need to have a great acceleration. At wing your feet are moving less so you have to go from 0 to the faster you can get a lot more than at center where your feet needs to consistently get going. You said it yourself, his shot is his main asset. It is easier for him, given his skillset, to position himself for his shot at center because he doesn't have to go get the puck himself ( or less often ).

When he plays center he is more involved in the game because his feet never stops which limit his poor acceleration.

In resume. And I think I did a good job explaining it. His game IS best suited for center and that is why I see him there. The fact that he makes more points there is just a contribution that further proves my opinion. Still, I don't base my opinion of him with the stats, I base them of the strengh and weaknesses I see from him on the ice.

Just look at the games and watch from where he looks better. It is clear as day to me where he actually should play.
 

Belial

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I really don't think you are reading my answer when I speak about Galchenyuk at center.

Yes he is better statistically and that should be a factor but it's not all.

read carefully what I write right now because it's got nothing to do with statistics.

Galchenyuk is a shifty player on the ice. Meaning that it is difficult to read from which side he will enter in the offensive zone. But to use that strenght of his, he needs space that he doesn't have on the wing because of the board. That is why his zone entries are so much better from the center ice.

Galchenyuk does not have a really good acceleration at the NHL level. That is one of his weakness. If you put him at wing where you have to burn defensemen and go in the corner the get the puck and then place yourself in front of the net you need to have a great acceleration. At wing your feet are moving less so you have to go from 0 to the faster you can get a lot more than at center where your feet needs to consistently get going. You said it yourself, his shot is his main asset. It is easier for him, given his skillset, to position himself for his shot at center because he doesn't have to go get the puck himself ( or less often ).

When he plays center he is more involved in the game because his feet never stops which limit his poor acceleration.

In resume. And I think I did a good job explaining it. His game IS best suited for center and that is why I see him there. The fact that he makes more points there is just a contribution that further proves my opinion. Still, I don't base my opinion of him with the stats, I base them of the strengh and weaknesses I see from him on the ice.

Just look at the games and watch from where he looks better. It is clear as day to me where he actually should play.

Shifty? Really? He's not shifty at all IMO. He has a powerful stride when he gets going but he's slow in small spaces.

And why are we talking about zone entries? Is he the one that makes those zone entries all the time?

I actually don't want him involved in the game, I want him getting in position and be ready to score goals.

He's a turnover machine when he tries to make plays or trying to deke players, it works sometimes and it looks great but generally he just looses the puck and it's a 2on1 going the other way.
 

gunnerdom

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It must be funny for Ron deep down as well, if you remember it was not too long ago that they tried to attract millennial's with strombo and tried kicking Ron and Don to the curb, how did that work out for them? Ron(who I liked in his CBC days because of his exchanges with Betteman) can now do no wrong at Rogers, they all kiss up to him and Elliot is there because of Ron. TSN is miles ahead and it sucks that they are just regional.

I would take Strombo before anyone they have now and I would still kick Don to the curve. Actually I would dump him in a garbage bin. The best analyst in hockey, IMO, is Mike Johnson, by a mile. But Sportsnet got rid of him.
 
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OldCraig71

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I would take Strombo before anyone they have now and I would still kick Don to the curve. Actually I would dump him in a garbage bin. The best analyst in hockey, IMO, is Mike Johnson, by a mile. But Sportsnet got rid of him.
I didn't relate to strombo in a hockey broadcast as I did when he was interviewing musicians and celebrities, that was more of his thing and that's just my opinion. I really liked Mike Johnson as well and good ole Ray Ferraro.
 

Kimota

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Nov 4, 2005
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I think we've seen this before ...

"60 years after the war ends, two soldiers emerge from the jungle

The two old men apparently declared they were soldiers, and the story they told when they emerged from the dense jungle of a Philippine island was yesterday the talk of the nation they claimed to have fought for.

According to reports, the Japanese men, who are both in their 80s, said they had been hiding on the island of Mindanao, which is 600 miles from Manila, since before the end of the second world war.

The Kyodo news agency identified them as Yoshio Yamakawa, 87, and Tsuzuki Nakauchi, 85, and said they were former members of a division whose ranks were devastated in fierce battles with US forces towards the end of the war.

The soldiers had remained in the jungle and mountains since then, possibly unaware that the war had ended 60 years ago, and afraid that they would be court-martialled for desertion if they showed their faces again."

60 years after the war ends, two soldiers emerge from the jungle

Holly crap, I wanna watch that movie!
 
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durojean

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Shifty? Really? He's not shifty at all IMO. He has a powerful stride when he gets going but he's slow in small spaces.

And why are we talking about zone entries? Is he the one that makes those zone entries all the time?

I actually don't want him involved in the game, I want him getting in position and be ready to score goals.

He's a turnover machine when he tries to make plays or trying to deke players, it works sometimes and it looks great but generally he just looses the puck and it's a 2on1 going the other way.

But at wing you play more in small places by definition and in center you play more in open space. Maybe shifty is not the good word but he is hard to contain when he's got space to do it and he is bad in small spaces where is option are limited.

For the zone entries he is not at the moment but he is the one who is the best at it and I'd argue that at the center ice position it would help the Habs control more the puck in the opponent zone.

You are right that he makes a lot of turnover but those turnover are always from the wing. I'd argue that he'd do them less often at center because he should be the last men up in the opponent zone and he'd actually touch the puck less as a center than right now. At center he does not have to go get the puck in the corner. He could concentrate on being at the good place to use his shot.

I think our divergence of opinion is there. You have pigeonholed him in a sniper role a la Pacioretty but I don't think that is the kind of player he is. I think he is an imaginative powerful player that needs to be involved to be productive. He is a player that needs be in open spaces more often that not to make use of his best assets.
 
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The Gr8 Dane

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Galchenyuks passing > drouin's . This is the NHL not the QMJHL or playstation sorry to break it to some people who think drouin has some magical passing touch :laugh:
 
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Belial

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But at wing you play more in small places by definition and in center you play more in open space. Maybe shifty is not the good word but he is hard to contain when he's got space to do it and he is bad in small spaces where is option are limited.

For the zone entries he is not at the moment but he is the one who is the best at it and I'd argue that at the center ice position it would help the Habs control more the puck in the opponent zone.

You are right that he makes a lot of turnover but those turnover are always from the wing. I'd argue that he'd do them less often at center because he should be the last men up in the opponent zone and he'd actually touch the puck less as a center than right now. At center he does not have to go get the puck in the corner. He could concentrate on being at the good place to use his shot.

I think our divergence of opinion is there. You have pigeonholed him in a sniper role a la Pacioretty but I don't think that is the kind of player he is. I think he is an imaginative powerful player that needs to be involved to be productive. He is a player that needs be in open spaces more often that not to make use of his best assets.

I think you're giving way too much importance to labels, C or W, the game happens so fast on the ice that players play a lot of time out of so called labeled position.

No one's restricting him to cut to the center when he gets the puck at his blue line...

The main reason he's not playing center is because there was no real progression in his defensive game at center and on the dot.

His offensive game was not overcompensating for his failures on the defensive side.
 

Whitesnake

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McCarron lacks talent and speed, you can't coach those things.

Leblanc and Tinordi are busts! You should stop blaming coaching with those 2.

Tinordi couldn't process the NHL game, the play was happening too fast for him.

Leblanc lacked commitment from all the information gathered, there was no progression in his game.

How are you able to totally excused every fail but will give Lefebvre every credit for others? If those guys weren't Lefebvre's fault...how is it that he has to be credited for the others that do well? Maybe he didn't do shit and they just progressed by themselves? Maybe the would have progressed more with another? And which players do you see some progression to their game because of him?
 
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Belial

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How are you able to totally excused every fail but will give Lefebvre every credit for others? If those guys weren't Lefebvre's fault...how is it that he has to be credited for the others that do well? Maybe he didn't do **** and they just progressed by themselves? Maybe the would have progressed more with another? And which players do you see some progression to their game because of him?

It's easy really and I already said it a ton of times.

I don't think coaching has that much impact as some of posters around here think.

A bad team will be bad even if you get the best coach out there and a good team will be good even if you have the worst coach.

You can't ruin talent and you can't make gold out of shit.

Lefebvre or whoever... Just draft better players.

Coaching is overrated.
 

Rapala

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I totally love the thread title...
It reminds me of how disappointed we should all be that Bergevin doesn't seem to know where he's been.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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JC Lajoie is just terrible. He cares more about displaying his deep knowledge of the french language than discussing anything.


That's usually an intellectual crotch of those who can only memorize and repeat, but who are weak at profound analyses and critical thinking. It is a facade used to appear more intelligent than they really are.

There's a slew of them in all media.
 
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durojean

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I think you're giving way too much importance to labels, C or W, the game happens so fast on the ice that players play a lot of time out of so called labeled position.

No one's restricting him to cut to the center when he gets the puck at his blue line...

The main reason he's not playing center is because there was no real progression in his defensive game at center and on the dot.

His offensive game was not overcompensating for his failures on the defensive side.

But he did get better at faceoff.

And the biggest problem is the evaluation of him coming back from his knee injury.

He is not really fast even when healthy and when he got back he was a slug and that showed and in that stretch I'm with you he was horrible defensively.

I choose to think a knee injury where he came back 2 weeks earlier than the original prognosis could have screwed up the appreciation of his game.

But remember before that injury. He was in the top ten in scoring in the league. He was centering the Habs first line and the Habs were winning a whole lot of games. At that time he played against the best defensive players of the other team and that line was wrecking everything in they're path.

And at that time his offensive output largely overcompensated for his defensive glimpses.

I think the problem is you see him at his worst and i see him at his best and the truth is probably somewhere in between. But still from what I saw from him. The best hockey of his Habs career and the most productive hockey of his career, he played it as a centerman and not a winger. And it is not like goalscoring is not our biggest problem right now.
 

Rapala

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How are you able to totally excused every fail but will give Lefebvre every credit for others? If those guys weren't Lefebvre's fault...how is it that he has to be credited for the others that do well? Maybe he didn't do **** and they just progressed by themselves? Maybe the would have progressed more with another? And which players do you see some progression to their game because of him?

He ignores our square pegging round holes.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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Jun 12, 2007
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It's easy really and I already said it a ton of times.

I don't think coaching has that much impact as some of posters around here think.

A bad team will be bad even if you get the best coach out there and a good team will be good even if you have the worst coach.

You can't ruin talent and you can't make gold out of ****.

Lefebvre or whoever... Just draft better players.

Coaching is overrated.

You're out of your depth and you don't know what you are talking about.

Sure, for that very limited pool of exceptional players like Crosby, Malkin and McDavid ect, it won't make a huge difference, but as a person who is well read in developmental biology and psychology, you're off the mark by a huge margin. Environment is paramount in the psychological development of players, especially under the age of 25 when the brain is not yet fully developped.

You'll say just about anything to disregard criticism towards this awful management.
 
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