The Advanced Stats Thread Episode VI: RIP To Our Databases

Discussion in 'New York Rangers' started by Bob Richards, Aug 20, 2017.

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  1. Machinehead

    Machinehead Ronald 7:4

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    Hot take that I would get lynched for anywhere but this thread: Scott Stevens is a glorified Chris Tanev and doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.
     
  2. GeorgeKaplan

    GeorgeKaplan Registered User

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    +1
     
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  3. Oscar Lindberg

    Oscar Lindberg Registered User

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    Nice hot taek schoolboy
     
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  4. SA16

    SA16 Sixstring

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    Don't see how they are even remotely comparable given Tanev has 86 points in his career and Stevens once had 78 points in a single season (obviously higher scoring era but still).
     
  5. Harbour Dog

    Harbour Dog Registered User

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    Skjei seems to have taken an extra step since the TDL. He's been killing it.

    I REALLY want O'Gara off the team so we can start getting sensible evaluations on all three of our pairings. Is Kampfer injured or something?
     
  6. aufheben

    aufheben #WE’REHAVINGAFIRE.....Sale

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    I think users can delete their own posts now FYI.
     
  7. Machinehead

    Machinehead Ronald 7:4

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    Stevens was a 26 point player the entire second half of career (the half in which he got all of his notoriety) and it just gets completely ignored because "he put up 78 points once."

    Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals once.
     
  8. SA16

    SA16 Sixstring

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    Ok so he scored 78 once he also put up 50+ 8 times. Did cheechoo score 50+ once and then have seven other 25+ goal years? Don’t see how this is comparable whatsoever.
     
  9. silverfish

    silverfish Not a GM

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    Seems like with a lot of the young guys on the team getting minutes, people are seeing what they want to see instead of what's actually there. Or blaming poor play on AV, which I suppose is fair enough, even if we have rel team metrics to account for things like this.

    Some of these young guys, especially on D, really aren't that great right now.

    Especially O'Gara, but at least HF is united on how bad he's been.

    Not seeing what everyone else is in Pionk and ADA.
     
  10. The Torts Identity

    The Torts Identity Registered User

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    Not a fan of using rel team metrics in Pionk's case...57% DZS% and facing opponent's top players well beyond League average...at this stage in his development...in this defensive system. Odds are stacked WAYYY against him. Like his poise, skating ability, and ability to move the puck.

    Pretty much the exact opposite for ADA in terms of usage and relative metrics, and maybe that's why his relative metrics look pretty good. Raw skill/high-volume shooter/offensive driver but the defensive deficiencies are obviously concerning.

    Pains me to say, may be a case where eye test prevails :popcorn:
     
  11. silverfish

    silverfish Not a GM

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    How sure of this are you, and how much does it matter?

    EDIT - I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I necessarily disagree, but we don't have a good way to evaluate how much qual comp actually matters yet.... I think.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  12. Oscar Lindberg

    Oscar Lindberg Registered User

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    With Pionk, I like some of his game, but other parts are concerning. His metric's aren't great, and the sample is small but I'd like to see him play in another system and get some more confidence in the pros before I make a judgement on that

    Some of the things he does well, like play 2-1's, are pretty great

    Some of the things he does poorly, like when he gets pressured, he does the Girardi/Staal special of throwing the puck up the boards in hopes of it getting out, and ices the puck, makes me want to drive me head through a wall.

    He has the mobility to get himself out of pressure without the useless chuck the puck move, hopefully he learns to use it
     
  13. aufheben

    aufheben #WE’REHAVINGAFIRE.....Sale

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    This is reeeeally random. :laugh:
     
  14. Machinehead

    Machinehead Ronald 7:4

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    The Devils fans started in with their "better than Leetch" garbage on the main boards and I had to get that off my chest.
     
  15. Machinehead

    Machinehead Ronald 7:4

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    He broke 30 points once after 1993-94. Nobody brings it up.
     
  16. silverfish

    silverfish Not a GM

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    Somebody remind me to look at the iCF60 splits of guys we traded away at the end of the year.
     
  17. aufheben

    aufheben #WE’REHAVINGAFIRE.....Sale

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    Lol that was over a decade into his career. There was also the 1994-95 lockout-shortened season so it's really after 1994-95.
     
  18. Machinehead

    Machinehead Ronald 7:4

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    And he spent 8 years being Chris Tanev.

    Shouldn't a "top 10 D of all time" like, not do that?

    He got all of his notoriety and individual awards as a Devil. Nobody gave a **** about him on the Capitals. And yet we'll use point totals from Washington to defend his deficiencies in New Jersey. I don't think it works that way.
     
  19. aufheben

    aufheben #WE’REHAVINGAFIRE.....Sale

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    I don't think anyone else considers this a deficiency.
     
  20. Machinehead

    Machinehead Ronald 7:4

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    If you don't consider averaging 26 points a deficiency as a #1D (nevermind a HOF D), then you're wrong.
     
  21. aufheben

    aufheben #WE’REHAVINGAFIRE.....Sale

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    He was kind of good at defending.
     
  22. Machinehead

    Machinehead Ronald 7:4

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    How good could he possibly be at defending?

    Realistically, how much better could he be at defending than Drew Doughty, Hampus Lindholm, Marc Edouard Vlasic, and Duncan Keith who all produce more than Stevens did the second half of his career?

    He was a very good player, but not a Hall of Fame player. And he doesn't sniff the top 10 D of all time. He wasn't a top 10 D in the NHL when he was playing.

    Leetch
    Chelios
    Pronger
    Bourque
    Lidstrom
    Niedermeyer
    Blake
    Coffey
    Murphy
    MacInnis

    He wasn't better than any of those guys.
     
  23. Machinehead

    Machinehead Ronald 7:4

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    Hell, when the Devils won the Cup in 2003 he was the third best D on his own team.
     
  24. The Torts Identity

    The Torts Identity Registered User

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    None that I'm aware of, just looked at from simplistic standpoint - he's put in a position to fail so it's no surprise his underlying numbers reflect that. I'm not sold either way on him (or ADA), but there are thinks I like about his game.

    FWIW, even with the most sophisticated information imaginable, I'm not sure we could effectively evaluate individual Dmen in this team's current state.
     
  25. effen

    effen Registered User

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    He was 38. lol

    how good was he at defending? uhh, really, really good. generationally good. Better than Chelios. Rod Langway won 2 Norris Trophies in the middle of the highest scoring era of all time scoring 32 and 33 points. Ron Greschner was better than him, amirite

    Putting cement shoed Larry Murphy above him is a good one.
     
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