of the options: chelios, brimsek, kane, hull, leetch, modano
without thinking too hard about it, i think i'd bump brimsek for matthews
without thinking too hard about it, i think i'd bump brimsek for matthews
Yzerman was past his prime in the late 90s, 2000s. Still a great player and one of the top two way forwards, but not the same player that was near the top of the scoring race for a couple of years.Modano played heads up against Fedorov/Yzerman and Forsberg/Sakic for all of his prime and often came out on top. The top of the west was loaded…weak competition?
Modano was also completely neutered as a points-compiler by playing as the centerpiece of Hitchcock’s franchise.
Howe was slightly before my time - I would tend to agree based on his trophy finishes he’s very underrated…not just among Americans.
But Modano is the best two-way forward America has ever produced.
Second time today you mixed up Callahan and Ryan Miller hahaNo goalies? Richter, Callahan, Quick…
Edit - sorry, no goalies any of us watched?
Yeah the old noggin plays weird tricks since an illness a few years agoSecond time today you mixed up Callahan and Ryan Miller haha
This a lot of stat-work to try and disprove what we saw at the time. Weak competition is absolutely wrong because when it mattered, Dallas was playing against Detroit and Colorado in the playoffs. Those three teams had some of the highest payrolls and stacked teams in the league.Yzerman was past his prime in the late 90s, 2000s. Still a great player and one of the top two way forwards, but not the same player that was near the top of the scoring race for a couple of years.
Fedorov was also pretty disappointing as a regular season performer by then, not receiving much votes for any awards besides selke finishes outside the top 5.
I'll give you Forsberg and Sakic. They won their fair share of awards, but both missed a large portion of games during that timeframe, which pretty much eliminated them from serious award contention.
Forsberg played half a season in 1999-00 and completely missed 2001-02.
Sakic played 58 games in 2002, 60 games in 1999.
Still, Modano would only ever finish as high as 6th in hart voting.
Also, I do think the argument that his production was neutered is a bit exaggerated..
In 2002-03, Dallas finished 6th in goals for, the teams best during this timeframe. Modano was 10th in points leaguewide.
In 2001-02, Dallas finished 15th in goals for, Modano was 9th in points.
In 2000-01, Dallas was 10th in goals for, Modano was 14th in points.
In 1999-00, Dallas was 21st in goals for! Funnily enough, this is Modano's highest point finish, he was 8th in scoring.
So despite the fluctuation of his teams goalscoring prowess, Modano's production remained pretty consistent. There isn't much evidence to suggest his production suffered.
Howe over Modano is laughable.Mark Howe is very underrated here and he'd round off my list which includes Chelios, Kane, Leetch, Brimsek and Hull.
He was Runner up to the Norris 3 times against prime Bourque and Coffey's historic 138 point, 48 goal season. Was also robbed of a norris the year Langway won.
Overall his Norris and Hart finishes are
Norris: 2, 2, 2, 5, 9, 6, 10
Hart: 3, 5, 7
His Hart finalist season BTW, was against an up and coming Lemieux and 215 point Gretzky. The number of defenseman that have been nominated for the Hart is a very small list.
I'd take him over Modano, who had his best years in the late 90s, early 2000s against relatively weak competition, yet failed to come close to being a finalist for any trophy other than his 3rd place selke finish.
Yep by the time his career is over he will be the best US player everI would add Matthews. He has a trophy case bigger than a lot of these guys already.
Chris Chelios
Brett Hull
Auston Matthews
Brian Leetch
Pat LaFontaineRod Langway
This a lot of stat-work to try and disprove what we saw at the time. Weak competition is absolutely wrong because when it mattered, Dallas was playing against Detroit and Colorado in the playoffs. Those three teams had some of the highest payrolls and stacked teams in the league.
Going head to head over a 7 game series is far more telling about a player's ability than random regular season games.
You misunderstood my point. Of course, regular season games matter. I was saying that a 7 game series with the Avs is a better way to evaluate Modano's two-way game against Forsberg/Sakic than a "random" game in December.And disregarding 4 full seasons as "random regular season games" is ridiculous. You still need to make the playoffs in the first place...
Trending but not there yet.Where Matthews at?
I didn't pick Hull for this reason.The case for Brett Hull being American is spotty. He was born in Canada and split his time between southern Ontario and Chicago between birth and age 8. From 8 until 18 he lived in Canada (combination of Winnipeg, Quebec, and BC) nearly full time.
From a hockey standpoint, spending 8 to 18 in Canada as a Canadian born person is pretty Canadian.
I have both on my list but Howe was easily the better player for longer IMO.Howe over Modano is laughable.
Howe never played a full season in the NHL, his last 7 seasons were pedestrian at best.
Modano was a lot more productive than Howe, up until the last few years he was playing.
of the options: chelios, brimsek, kane, hull, leetch, modano
without thinking too hard about it, i think i'd bump brimsek for matthews