Boston Bruins The 4th Line Dilemma

[LouJersey]

I can see Frederic developing into a Josh Anderson type for us.

 

[Fenian24]

I can see Frederic developing into a Josh Anderson type for us.

That's my hope with him, though I see more offensive upside, maybe a mix of Anderson and a young Backes.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

That's my hope with him, though I see more offensive upside, maybe a mix of Anderson and a young Backes.

Maybe I’m being greedy and have my sights set too high for him, but I’m hoping Frederic is better than Josh Anderson. I think he can be a Getzlaf-type for the B’s down the road. I want a big, skilled center with a mean streak. A guy that can score 30, but will run you as well.

 

[NDiesel]

Goons who can skate? Sadly I know the game had "evolved" from what a great game it once was but despite it's wussification there is still a place for players who will fight and hit, it's not quite speed skating with sticks yet. Also I want players who are tough that can play, not Loui Eriksson "tough" which is anything but, I want players who initiate contact, can skate and hit and whose speed and hitting can be turned into points.

Give me a choice between a Phil Kessel or Wayne Simmonds I take Simmonds every time.

One of the biggest issues since Sweeney took over this team is his inability or unwillingness to draft physical players, McAvoy and Frederic being the possible exceptions, his inability to replace Milan Lucic with a similar player. Lucic was allowed to walk because of fears for his contract demands, in his place Matt Belesky was brought in for 2 million dollars less and one tenth the production, intimidation factor, fighting ability and offensive production. Sweeney has many other issues but this is a contributing factor in his inability to be an average GM, never mind a good one.

You can cry and worry about how they need another Loui Eriksson type or how Spooner isn't getting a fair chance or how Danton Heinen needs more ice time or how they need more skill. I'll cry about how they are disgracefully soft, seem uninterested in putting any effort forward in 2 of the 3 games so far, how the need a physical big forward or two and an attitude readjustment.

Bettman and his cronies may be able to control the conversation on the networks they own (nhl TV and radio) and try to keep saying how fighting is dying out and has no place but try asking players how they feel about having guys who will have their backs, set a physical tone and create space so the Bjork's of the world have space to operate or the 85-90% of fans who still like fighting and hitting despite the leagues best attempts to dissuade such feelings.

Well our team has neither Kessel or Simmonds, nor is anyone saying we don't want guys who can skate and hit. My issue with you specifically is you complain in every single thread about how we need more toughness, yet I don't see any suggestion on how we add toughness that actually improve our team. For a while your solution was call up Tyler Randell (and you weren't the only one).

Let's look at the Stanley Cup winning Penguins since you wanted to mention toughness. On their roster in the last two seasons, who have they had on the team that's tough? What about the Predators? Chicago? Hell, I would argue that with Backes, McQuaid, and Miller in the lineup the Bruins have more toughness than all these teams. These guys have essentially 4 skill lines with minimal guys on the team who are there to just bang bodies.

Maybe if you actually gave some suggestions on how we are going to get better as a team and add this toughness then you would have some sort of credibility. The sad part is I don't necessarily disagree that we don't need some big bodies on the team, but the way you go about it is so tiresome at this point. Contribute and give us some ideas on how we are going to get bigger AND better.

Maybe the question should be would you rather cheer for a team who wins the cup, or would you rather cheer for a team who fights and loses?

 

[b in vancouver]

The primary job of the 4th line is to not get scored against and get the puck in deep. They should play physical but more importantly not put themselves out of position and out of the play. Scoring should be way down on the list of priorities. The reason the Merlot line was so good was because they knew exactly what they were and they played a very basic dump, hit and take up a defensive position. When turnovers or an offensive chance or a goal happened it was gravy. Most young skilled/semi skilled players have no idea how to play without the puck, they're usually a horrible choice for fourth line duty. Young skilled guys want to impress and they want to move up in the line up and it usually means they get their priorities mixed up. Heinen is an intelligent he could probably handle fourth line work, Kurally has a great motor, he works his butt off but his play without the puck needs a lot of work. Acciari is good, he keeps it simple and plays a solid defensive game. I said back in July that losing Moore would be trouble for this team. Good on the draw, very defensive minded and good on the PK. You can't just throw a young player into that spot and expect him to do what a vet like Moore could do.

The Bruins problem right now is barely any of our guys are playing intelligent without the puck, the scoring chances on Rask are through the roof. You can't win like that, Butch has to clean that up. Getting Bergeron back will be huge, it slots Nash back to where he belongs.

We have very similar views.
I definitely understand why people want more offence and to play the kids in those roles as it seems like a great idea but I just haven't seen it work out in the NHL. Young players that you can slot onto the 4th line, watch them have a positive impact on the team/game, develop their game, and work their way up the line-up are the exception, not the rule.

With the amount of kids coming I think the Bruins brass will be placing a lot of kids on the 4th line over the next two years and I hope it works out, but I'm reticent. Playing just a few minutes a game isn't easy - and think kids especially aren't ideally suited to that role as they do want to impress and try to do too much at times.

I was actually really surprised they didn't re-sign Moore (especially after holding onto Spooner and his not stellar defensive play). An Acciari - Moore - Nash 4th line would've left me a lot more comfortable. Let the kids develop in the A a little bit longer.

 

[BruinDust]

Let's look at the Stanley Cup winning Penguins since you wanted to mention toughness. On their roster in the last two seasons, who have they had on the team that's tough? What about the Predators? Chicago? Hell, I would argue that with Backes, McQuaid, and Miller in the lineup the Bruins have more toughness than all these teams. These guys have essentially 4 skill lines with minimal guys on the team who are there to just bang bodies.

I watched the Pens-TB game last night. Two of the best teams in the East for my money.

It was high-octane stuff, teams trading chances, going back and forth.

TB didn't have any true "tough guys".

Pens had one, Reeves, and he played less than 4 mins.

 

[NCBruinsfan]

I watched the Pens-TB game last night. Two of the best teams in the East for my money.

It was high-octane stuff, teams trading chances, going back and forth.

TB didn't have any true "tough guys".

Pens had one, Reeves, and he played less than 4 mins.

Yea that was a fun game, as advertised.

 

[NDiesel]

I watched the Pens-TB game last night. Two of the best teams in the East for my money.

It was high-octane stuff, teams trading chances, going back and forth.

TB didn't have any true "tough guys".

Pens had one, Reeves, and he played less than 4 mins.

Exactly, it's a waste of a roster spot unless the guy is potting at least 10 goals and not being a liability on defense.

And I'm pretty certain that no Bolts player was intimidated by Reeves. If anything the most intimidating guy on the ice is Hedman, who is by no means a physical juggernaut.

 

[Sheppy]

Alright, lets roll out a tiny 4th line and see them all pot 10 or more goals. Reaves played great against Nashville the other night. Scored a goal, registered 7 hits and kicked the shit out of two Predators. Yeah, no room for that at all... heaven forbid someone spark the team and get the fans out of the seat.

You guys have all the answers, it seems.

Accairi, useless.
Nash, useless.
Kuraly, useless.
Heinen, useless.
Czarnik, useless.
White, useless.
Schaller, useless.

I guess if White comes in, pots 7-8 goals, is a plus player while being physically engaged, he's still not an ideal 4th liner.

 

[BruinDust]

Alright, lets roll out a tiny 4th line and see them all pot 10 or more goals.

You guys have all the answers, it seems.

Accairi, useless.
Nash, useless.
Kuraly, useless.
Heinen, useless.
Czarnik, useless.
White, useless.
Schaller, useless.

I guess if White comes in, pots 7-8 goals, is a plus player while being physically engaged, he's still not an ideal 4th liner.

Most would be more than happy if White came in here and did that.

 

[Sheppy]

Most would be more than happy if White came in here and did that.

He produces, or has produced decently on 4th lines before. 6 goals in 34 games for the Flyers a few seasons ago, a full year that's 12-14 goals. He scored 11 in 73 the year after, and 9 in 65 last season. Which is more than any Bruins 4th liner has scored since... Paille & Kelly in 2013-14, they also scored 9 goals.

I'm not saying he comes in and eclipses that, but it's worth a shot.

 

[NDiesel]

Alright, lets roll out a tiny 4th line and see them all pot 10 or more goals. Reaves played great against Nashville the other night. Scored a goal, registered 7 hits and kicked the **** out of two Predators. Yeah, no room for that at all... heaven forbid someone spark the team and get the fans out of the seat.

You guys have all the answers, it seems.

Accairi, useless.
Nash, useless.
Kuraly, useless.
Heinen, useless.
Czarnik, useless.
White, useless.
Schaller, useless.

I guess if White comes in, pots 7-8 goals, is a plus player while being physically engaged, he's still not an ideal 4th liner.

I'm confused, are you saying you wouldn't want our 4th line to score 30 or more goals, because that would be absolutely fantastic production.....

For every game Reaves scores a goal and does something he also has about 4 games where he's useless and invisible. 1 game is a pretty small sample size if you ask me, but hey what do I know.

We need more Blake Wheeler/Wayne Simmonds types who are big, can use their frame, and can score, we don't need more Reaves types who hit, fight and play less than ten minutes a game.

I seriously question the thought process of some people here, we just got heavily outscored and what we should do is go out and get more guys who can't score and are not very good defensively? It's pretty telling that Reaves was a plus player TWICE on some pretty stacked Blues teams when he barely plays. He hit he ice for 4 minutes the other night and managed to still be a negative player. He has 3 shots in 5 games. But hey he scored one goal in a game and got 24 PIMS!

 

[Fenian24]

No we need a Reaves and a Simmonds type. Ryan Reaves is a perfect 4th line player, so much so the vaunted Penguins thought enough of him to give up a first round pick. Fast, tough, tremendous hitter and far and away the best fighter in the game right now, tell me how he scoring 8 goals and being a physical presence is worse than Czarnik scoring 6 goals and being faster?

You may be tired of my wanting toughness and how to go about getting it (trade some of the over valued prospects for players who can hit, fight and skate or sign them in the offseason and not spend the season trying to find them because you aren't doing your job as a GM and getting your team prepared) but the mantra of small, soft and fast is just as tiresome.

 

[Sheppy]

I'm confused, are you saying you wouldn't want our 4th line to score 30 or more goals, because that would be absolutely fantastic production.....

For every game Reaves scores a goal and does something he also has about 4 games where he's useless and invisible. 1 game is a pretty small sample size if you ask me, but hey what do I know.

We need more Blake Wheeler/Wayne Simmonds types who are big, can use their frame, and can score, we don't need more Reaves types who hit, fight and play less than ten minutes a game.

I seriously question the thought process of some people here, we just got heavily outscored and what we should do is go out and get more guys who can't score and are not very good defensively? It's pretty telling that Reaves was a plus player TWICE on some pretty stacked Blues teams when he barely plays.

When you say we need more Blake Wheeler/Wayne Simmonds types? Who do we have that fits that role currently? No one. I'd trade half the team for a guy like Simmonds.

I would love to have 3 4th liners who can score 10 goals. I'd love it. However, we haven't had any in 5 years... and I don't see any in the system who are magically going to come in and provide that on the 4th line. Ryan White of all people has had the most offensive output than anyone in our system, or currently on the team at a 4th line duty. Again, a low risk signing for a guy who's proven to be able to chip in and provide a spark. Cassidy has clearly seen the FACT that we're missing some snarl in the bottom 6, and has given White a chance to prove himself, yet some people still want 3 guys who weigh 175 pounds soaking wet with the physical edge of a moth ball.

I wouldn't mind having an all skilled 4th line if we had guys in the top 6 who could hammer bodies (We did have a guy, and well... he's not here anymore) and play the cycle game and forecheck like a son of a bitch, but we don't, unfortunately. Therefore I think it's a wise decision to have a guy or two in the bottom 6 who can provide a physical edge. It can't just be McQuaid.

 

[NDiesel]

When you say we need more Blake Wheeler/Wayne Simmonds types? Who do we have that fits that role currently? No one. I'd trade half the team for a guy like Simmonds.

I would love to have 3 4th liners who can score 10 goals. I'd love it. However, we haven't had any in 5 years... and I don't see any in the system who are magically going to come in and provide that on the 4th line. Ryan White of all people has had the most offensive output than anyone in our system, or currently on the team at a 4th line duty. Again, a low risk signing for a guy who's proven to be able to chip in and provide a spark. Cassidy has clearly seen the FACT that we're missing some snarl in the bottom 6, and has given White a chance to prove himself, yet some people still want 3 guys who weigh 175 pounds soaking wet with the physical edge of a moth ball.

I wouldn't mind having an all skilled 4th line if we had guys in the top 6 who could hammer bodies (We did have a guy, and well... he's not here anymore) and play the cycle game and forecheck like a son of a *****, but we don't, unfortunately. Therefore I think it's a wise decision to have a guy or two in the bottom 6 who can provide a physical edge. It can't just be McQuaid.

Yes, and that's my point. Getting a Simmonds or Wheeler type is tough because they are so valuable. But the answer isn't getting guys who are liabilities on the ice just so we are more physical.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I just don't think getting a Ryan Reaves, Cody McLeod, Tyler Randell, etc. type is the answer at all.

 

[Sheppy]

I just hope people have the same mentality when one of our tougher guys is out of the lineup and someone takes Pastrnaks head off and we have Torey Krug jump in.

 

[BruinDust]

He produces, or has produced decently on 4th lines before. 6 goals in 34 games for the Flyers a few seasons ago, a full year that's 12-14 goals. He scored 11 in 73 the year after, and 9 in 65 last season. Which is more than any Bruins 4th liner has scored since... Paille & Kelly in 2013-14, they also scored 9 goals.

I'm not saying he comes in and eclipses that, but it's worth a shot.

I like the move, it's worth exploring. No risk at all.

 

[NDiesel]

I just hope people have the same mentality when one of our tougher guys is out of the lineup and someone takes Pastrnaks head off and we have Torey Krug jump in.

Here's the thing, unless the guy who throws the hit is as big as Ryan Reaves (not many are), he isn't going to fight Ryan Reaves. The best Reaves will be able to do is put us shorthanded. Therefore it's absolutely useless to have him on the ice in that situation. Like it or not, that's the truth about today's NHL. The best revenge is on the scoresheet.

 

[Sheppy]

Good enough, lets wait and see.

 

[BruinDust]

No we need a Reaves and a Simmonds type. Ryan Reaves is a perfect 4th line player, so much so the vaunted Penguins thought enough of him to give up a first round pick. Fast, tough, tremendous hitter and far and away the best fighter in the game right now, tell me how he scoring 8 goals and being a physical presence is worse than Czarnik scoring 6 goals and being faster?

You may be tired of my wanting toughness and how to go about getting it (trade some of the over valued prospects for players who can hit, fight and skate or sign them in the offseason and not spend the season trying to find them because you aren't doing your job as a GM and getting your team prepared) but the mantra of small, soft and fast is just as tiresome.

Two completely different players. I'd like to have one of both to be honest, because I like that style of player, but I'm not delusional to the notion that you "must" have a Reaves type to win.

On one hand the Penguins wanted him enough to give up a late 1st, then again, his coach in a high paced game against a top opponent, thought enough of him to give him less than 4 mins. of ice time.

Really how critical to Pittsburgh success is Reaves? He's not critical at all.

 

[Fenian24]

Two completely different players. I'd like to have one of both to be honest, because I like that style of player, but I'm not delusional to the notion that you "must" have a Reaves type to win.

On one hand the Penguins wanted him enough to give up a late 1st, then again, his coach in a high paced game against a top opponent, thought enough of him to give him less than 4 mins. of ice time.

Really how critical to Pittsburgh success is Reaves? He's not critical at all.

One game against Tampa, I'm sure Reaves will get his ice time and I'm sure his teammates are happy to have him. Reaves and Simmonds are different types of players I want one for the top 6 one for the bottom 6.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Here's the thing, unless the guy who throws the hit is as big as Ryan Reaves (not many are), he isn't going to fight Ryan Reaves. The best Reaves will be able to do is put us shorthanded. Therefore it's absolutely useless to have him on the ice in that situation. Like it or not, that's the truth about today's NHL. The best revenge is on the scoresheet.

Not only that, but when has having a tough guy ever prevented that sort of thing?

And before anybody gets all pissed off, I’m not saying I don’t think that some cheap shot artist should get his ass handed to him if he crosses the line...I’m just saying typically they don’t, and even when they do, it doesn’t prevent/deter them from doing it again.

 

[ODAAT]

I watched the Pens-TB game last night. Two of the best teams in the East for my money.

It was high-octane stuff, teams trading chances, going back and forth.

TB didn't have any true "tough guys".

Pens had one, Reeves, and he played less than 4 mins.

yeah but I bet that 4 minutes changed the complexion of the game

 

[b in vancouver]

People point to Pittsburgh's skill - but they had more skilled teams when not winning the Cup those years. The turning point was actually when Boston swept them (especially coming on the heels of their Flyer series's) - they became a hard-nosed team.
Chicago was one of the toughest teams in the league. As was L.A. As was Boston.

I just want a team that's hard to play against - again. Doesn't always mean dropping the gloves but - honestly - fighting, hitting, battling for pucks, scrums, etc. Make life miserable for the other team.
If you're not controlling the tempo - the other team probably is. And no matter what sport you're playing - intimidation works.

 

[LouJersey]

I just hope people have the same mentality when one of our tougher guys is out of the lineup and someone takes Pastrnaks head off and we have Torey Krug jump in.

Having had Center Ice since it's inception, basically every year there are a few runs taken with whomever is on the Bruins team or ice.